johnny1488

You have more than enough time to learn to fly a 210. Dont just downsize when you think you can handle it. I would put your exit weight closer to 245lbs with your rig, helmet, alti, shoes, jumpsuit, cookies you didnt finish on the plane (is that just me?)I dont think you will have any problem fending off boredom with any canopy at 1.17:1. Have fun and be safe Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

They have and do make ellipticals for beginners and students. But that canopy is not the same one that is marketed for pro pilots. Its not the word elliptical that is dangerous its what the canopy does if a mistake is made. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

The thread got a little off but I hope the conclusion is clear. There is no reason for a students first jumps to be on an elliptical. If they want to go to a tapered or slightly elliptical canopy before the get there own gear thats fine, but that canopy is not the cobalt or any other HP canopy. And regardless of design no novice jumper should have to load a canopy 1.2 or more to have it fly. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

exactly.. and not ANY canopy will let you get away with yanking on a toggtle when you're low. Most wont. *** Well that can be taught in the classroom. You dont have to put them on a canopy that could hurt them and say" dont do that or you'll die." Put them on a more forgiving canopy and say" dont do that or you'll die!" When it is seen that they wont then transistion them over to something that is more inline with what they will want to sly after student status. I also know plenty of people I went through aff with that still fly sabres. Not everyone has to go elliptical (or semi or tapered or whatever you want to call the aspect of performance). If they want to they are more than welcome to learn about the individual traits and treat them with respect. Are the first 5 jumps really gonna throw of the learning curve and make the rest of their jumping career horrible? Thats just insane. I plan on jumping forever. My first 5 out of 5000 or 50,000 wont make a shit of difference (but it could have saved my ass) Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

No but you prepare for it. Or it could happen this way. 2 students at 100 feet are cut off. The student trained on the sabre has never been cut off before. He panics, freezes and looks hard to one side and pulls the toggle w/o realizing what he is doing (because he's never been up shits creek before.) Im not saying stunt a students learning ability. Just as you do simple manuevers in freefall before you do flips and tracking, you teach them simple basics (like survival skills and how to determine what ANY canopy will let them get away with) before they learn all the finer points of being a canopy pilot. I know when i see a student in the air I give them more space than anyone because they are already overloaded. My girlfriend (killerkimmy here) had a long student progression and her first 75 os so jumps were strechted out over a decent amout of time. In that time she was trained on navigators and jumped everything from spectres to sabres to safires back to sabres of different sizes. She treated every canopy as if it would kill her somehow unless she learned all its flight charicteristics. She did brake turns in her sleep. It was no magic formula with her, she was just informed and hungry to learn all she could from all her canopies, old and new designs. She can tell you where almost every canopy was flying on an otter load with out her being distracted from safely piloting her canopy. I consider her an extremely safe and knowledgeable pilot. She still has tons to learn and she is excited to do it on every jump. We all know students safety comes first. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Thats not necessarily a bad thing. Icarus makes a student canopy that hardly gains any speed in a full on toggle turn. Thats technology that will benefit a first jump student. Have an instructor put them on a safire2 after 5 or 6 jumps. There, a perfect compromise. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Well most of the planforms on student canopies are "outdated" by current performance standards. That doesnt make them bad for someone who's never been under a canopy. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Yeah it was boring and slow and you wanted more. But you got some time under your belt. When we are students its hard to understand what you havent learned yet. Edited to add..I was trained on a pd navigator 280 (later a 220) I've never flown a manta but the navigator had all I needed for the first 20 or so jumps. I know we want to start to learn all we can about our new found addiction. If we start on the slow crappy stuff (by crappy I mean performance wise) we will appreciate the more modern canopies. I mean if its a little tough to stand up every landing, whats wrong with practicing PLF's? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

So you didnt learn to fly a patern or how do toggle turns or brake turns or what a flare was? Ever do anything stupid under a square slow canopy that maybe a slightly more aggressive planform shape wouldn't have let you get away with? There is no such thing as bad time in the air under a canopy. Even if its for the first couple jumps until its decided BY YOUR INSTRUCTORS that you could benefiet from a more efficient canopy. If a student is not at the point of refraining from doing something unexpectedly stupid there is no need to put them on a canopy that might dive a little more or turn faster. Put a student on a big safire or sabre2 but not on a cobalt or a xfirre or stilleto Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

You had to learn all over again. Is that to say the experience you had under the manta was harmful. Thats like saying you did 100 rw jumps before you started freeflying and had to start all over again. There is no reason to rush. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

My girlfriend spoke with a girl from Atair and she expressed her conserns and then Dan called her back. She would not buy from them because at the wingloading she was comfortable with the canopy was not safe. I would not shun everyone from their products. I would just let them know what happened to us. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Maybe the new Atair planform shapes will be good for students and beginners at a light loading. Im pretty sure thats why they made them. What I dont get is why Dan said and continues to say the the cobalt at a light loading is fine when Atair told me that you should not load it as light to be safe for someone with limited experience. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

There were safety issuse that arised from my girlfriend jumping the cobalt at a light wingloading. Atair's response is you need to load it more. No student should be in a rush to highly load a canopy. If they want to recommend a cobalt at 1.2 for a jumper with 100 or 200 Thats fine. To say its fine for someone with zero ( or close to it) experience is not smart. There is nothing unsafe about having a student under a lightly loaded canopy until they learn with a good margain of safety. Canopy progression is about much more than learning at the fastest rate possible. In skydiving if you think you can learn faster by pushing the limits your probably gonna get hurt. Square chutes and BOC for students is NOTHING like highly loaded ellipticals Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

If there had been personal attacks in here it would be, (name), you lick balls or (name), your product sucks because I dont like it. In this case its been people asking questions about claims that obviously cant be backed up. Regardless of charts about wingloading performance (that any manufacturer would have and gladly share) its more to the point been asking about the use of the cobalt as a student (or beginner) canopy. By your wingloading you should be about 220 out the door. At 64 jumps if you think your ready for a highly elliptical 170 squarefoot canopy, good luck to you. Whats wrong with a 190 that was recommended to you by your jump school. What made you feel you were ready for a hp 170. If people here (or on the dz) tell you its a bad idea its not because they're afraid of you proving them wrong. It's cause they dont want to see you bouncing off the landing area. I think the potential for disaster is there and any manufacturer that says its perfectly fine is irresponsible. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Thats on my list for this season now. We tried to do cross country canopy jumps but to get any real distance we would have to go over the mountains and thats Boston Logan airspace. We were gonna go 8-10 out for the canopy ride. How far did you take the tracking dive? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

I saw video of mustaine and rackman jumping in AZ. Looked like 10 years ago or better. Who knows if either still do it. If you liked it enough to start and continue, how could you give it up? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

I have no problem with wind if doesnt cause turbulence. probably 25-30 is my limit. I'll always watch a load or 2 and see what canopies my size are doing. I like high uppers cause it means tracking dive into the wind! Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

We had Kristen Davis from Sex in the City do 2 tandems at the ranch this year. Also on the celebs, do they get special perks, Like buying the entire load so they can be comfortable and harness their chi before level 3? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Not the type you would think. Reading the other post got me thinking. What actors and the like do you know of that are or were active skydivers. Past or present, whatever. I know a few. Dave Mustaine Ice T

Jim emailed me that they are going to be shipped out in the beginning of march. You can pre order though. I'm starting to have the fits from waiting. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Been pulled over twice. Not smart for us to even mention skydiving. Once beat it cause the cop didnt show , once my gf bargained it down to a broken speedo. Nothing for them to do up there. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

On your website you bill the comp cobalt as "pro pilots only" then later as "for experienced pilots only" and an alternative for the vx and the velocity. Now you are saying the comp is for beginners. Was that the idea when it was designed and tested or is just out of convenience now that it is an all around canopy. When my girlfriend tried a lightly loaded cobalt 170 and found numerous undesirable traits you said the problem was she wasnt loading it enough. Now you are saying lightly loading is ok for students? And when they dont like it should they be quick to downsize also? And do you mean to say that you designed 2 totally new canopies just because you were "tired" of explaining your product? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

here's some of my favs group shot me not breaking any rules looks so professional me over the keys Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

I flew an f1-11 for my first 50 jumps on my own gear. It might not have been the best choice (price was right), the performance sucked but I felt like I learned a lot. When I went to ZP (a little smaller too) I crapped my pants and held a lot of respect for what my new canopy was capable of. I dont think any one equasion is for everyone. You cant go wrong with a light wingloading for novice canopy pilots. My first own canopy was at 60 jumps @ 1.13:1 , My canopy now is 415 jumps @ 1.42:1. I would not want to be at that under 100 jumps no matter how conservative I was. I feel I could (and sometimes want to) handle more now but will wait until my skill catches up with my balls. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome

Is this the same Atair that did "real testing" to make sure every canopy would be perfect before release unlike some other manufactures have been blamed for doing? Also why would you feel the need to introduce a more docile planform shape if the cobalt has been marketed towards students and beginners? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome