ChasingBlueSky

As we know, intent of a law and practice of it are not always the same thing. Power corrupts....yadda yadda. Now imagine unmonitored power. As it stands the FBI has 100% access to all US to US based communications without a warrant. This is rather worrisome. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I await some links or sourses. Interesting stuff, if true. Yes, the intent of the changes are supposedly going in just to monitor terrorist activity. The only problem is where do you draw the line on that? I think the actual verbiage is "agent of a foreign power." Usually you use a judge on that. I need to reread the newest one that Bush signed to see if anything changed on ever needing judicial review of a wiretap. So let me do some research over the weekend as I can't do that right now. But what I originally read seem to imply that none was needed. It's possible that the recent changes to Heabeus Corpus could change that if they were looking to arrest someone. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

You went here sooner than I was going to. Also, the fact that Hillary and Obama were going after each other and it was sooooooooooo damaging to the Dem party made it bigger news to the networks. Anybody can argue the subject side of right or left leaning press. It is hard however, to argue with the research done by many (left leaning) colleges and media orgs that support the claim the left leans left. To be fair, both of them have been media darlings in their own time.....it may not be equal as of today but it has been there. If McCain believed that even negative press for him was good, then he would be talking all the time. I think he is more scared of the media at this point of the election than anything else. He is waiting for Obama to fail against the darling image the media created during the Primary. I'm of the opinion that if the media was really in favor of Obama, they would add more negative fuel to the McCain fire instead of him just being "that other guy who happens to be conservative." Hopefully that makes sense....typing while on a call right now. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Well clearly because he didn't go public immediately that removes all credibility. Good to see you are using the Bush spin lines now, thought you were better than that. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

The topic didn't matter, it was the fact that he did it. To not hold them both to this shows the double standards on coverage _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

The previous FISA allowed all off shore communications to be observed, and in most cases it didn't care if the receiving end of the communication ended in the US....but that was always up to the court to decide. Now the FISA changes allow any communication on American soil to be observed without moderation or justification. ANY communication (voice/data/mail/etc), and due to national security issues, you will never find out if you were observed. I'm not sure how, after this has been going on for so long, that anyone could not understand that. And before anyone tosses up the immunity thing. It became a lightning rod for some people to go after Bush. The telecoms even painted it that way to our representatives via lobbyists. I fully agree with Obama and the others that intent was fully misguided....and because of that immunity was passed. But what it now prevents is our ability to develop proof that Bush and his staff did break the 4th Amendment before the new FISA changes. We cannot get people on the stand to testify that they made it possible for them to do so in 2004. The Bush Administration was brilliant again in spinning this as all about the telecoms and everyone looked over at that bright spinning object. Meanwhile most ignored the real issue: warrantless surveillance of American citizens. It gets even better when you realize they are storing that data which is not allowed by law.....but we can't prove it now because of the immunity aspect of FISA. Cool stuff eh? _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Clearly you haven't been paying attention if you think I make my choices along something as inane as a party line. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

So, out of pride you are ok with not supporting the best chance to get the 4th Amendment saved from being worthless? I can see holding a grudge, but this is about the foundation of what this country was established on. Guess that tells me all I need to know. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I've claimed endlessly that the "liberal media" tag is just spin created by the Rove machine to give Bush something to hide behind. It then took on a life of it's own due to Fox. Well, remember when Obama ditched his press to meet with Hillary? I think Fox, MSNBC and CNN each dedicated nearly 2 hours of time to that topic. On the 9th McCain ditched his crew to perform a press release reading to a CNN camera. I watched the three big cable networks that night and saw nothing on it. Why is it a big deal for Obama to do it, and not McCain? http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/09/mccain_campaign_restricts_pres.html _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Interesting enough, if you want this fixed you may need to support the ACLU. They are putting together a rather strong lawsuit they are hoping to get in front of the SCOTUS. A former journalist from the NY Times, Salon.com and Wired are all lending the information they have gathered as well. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ Oh, and I so do miss the candidate that once said this: _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

There are many to blame here. Both the House and the Senate passed it. But much like the Patriot Act, this change was Bushed through with fear and rhetoric. Back then most didn't read the full PA when they voted on it. This time Bush held back the majority of proof and information about the extent of the wiretapping. There were several Amendments that were voted on that would have allowed for that discovery but they all failed with a much closer margin than the overall vote. So the rough guess is that about 70% of our representatives voted on the FISA changes without knowing exactly what they were voting on. How cool is that?? Even Spector, a Republican, admonished the vote and called it one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of the Senate. I blame all of them, including the White House. None of this would have come up Bush didn't break the law originally. If there wasn't a whistle blower at Verizon none of this would have been brought up. Then under the guise of Executive Privledge, he forced the congress to vote against the 4th Amendment ignorantly. I still find it interesting that Nixon was forced out of office for something similar but now, under the fear of terrorism, it's ok. Obama lost my vote for his stance on FISA, and I've let him know that as well. His oath of office was to protect the Constitution. Allowing it to be irrelevant is not change I can believe in. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Careful now....you are sounding like a liberal. After all that is the line of rational, logical thinking we have been using all along. Now replace guns with just about anything else lawmakers try to ban....you know, those personal pet peeves like video games, gay marriage, net neutrality, tv shows, vulgar language, nudity, etc. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Was he the warm up act for Carrot Top? Maybe that's the trick...you have to user your two drinks to understand this administration _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Um, why not? You are smart enough to figure it out Vin While you are at it, read this http://www.slate.com/id/2193365/ _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I have nothing else to say other than "..... /facepalm" http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/07/it-was-his-fina.html It was his final summit with the Group of 8, the leaders of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia as well as the United States. President Bush, the most senior member of the group, was attending his eighth summit, and for years he withstood pressure to take a firmer stand against global warming. It was the topic on the minds of summit partners and demonstrators. His final words to the likes of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and French President Nicolas Sarkozy: "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter." That was the report from the British press, citing "senior sources" who said Bush made the private joke as he was about to leave Japan on Wednesday. It stunned his partners, according to the Telegraph, which said: He then punched the air while grinning widely, as the rest of those present including Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy looked on in shock. The Independent offered this analysis: "His remarks were taken as a two-fingered salute from the president from Texas who is wedded to the oil industry." (Two-fingered? Yes, that's the V-for-victory sign, but in Britain it means something else, too, when the palm is turned inward.) A White House spokesman responded to our inquiry: "I don't have anything on this for you." — James Gerstenzang _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Seems MSNBC was reporting it as well. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

IABF / BDS in the first post....what's your point, besides the obvious deflect from MY point that they're ALL shitheads? QWERTY? LMNOP? RDS? Guess I don't know these new ones. I'm pretty sure I've gone on record that I'm not a Democrat, so not sure what the point was of your first post. Also, if you wanted something more relevant you should have looked at who voted yes/no....Going after the massive amount of Dems that voted against the amendments and for FISA is overwhelming. People I used to respect, like Jim Webb, will never get my support again. I didn't realize he was a piece of trash that was just as easily purchased like the rest of the Senate and House. Still, good to see McCain likes to make an issue about Obama and the vote then he doesn't have the courage to show up and make his own vote. Oh ya, I wrote the Obama campaign and informed them I am withdrawing my support because this was not filibustered and that the young senator from my state didn't do all he could to protect our freedoms. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

The morning of the FISA vote McCain unleashes on Obama about it: http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_hits_obama_on_fisa_vote.php But look at this http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Calendar/Detail.aspx?guid=146ebbb6-e9c5-44d1-80a7-2ae79b7112b6 McCain currently has missed 61% of the votes in the Senate. The most of any active Senator. Not sure about you guys, but I would lose my job if I was absent that often. Meanwhile Obama is actually there voting for the Amedments to the FISA vote, esp the Dobb, Specter and Bingaman ones. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00164#top One has to wonder if GW will pull down his pants and shit on the 4th Amendment after he signs the new FISA into law. Nixon must be pissing himself in his grave that this idiot got away with it but he didn't. "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.." Ben Franklin edit to add: http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/fisa-compromise.ars Worth a read if you missed it. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I find this concept wholly disturbing on so many levels and I already know what some of the trolls are going to say to this. Despite that knowledge, I'm brining this up here. I'm of the mindset that allowing this to happen would open the floodgates to it's usage elsewhere in this country. I'm certain that I would change all travel plans to never fly commercially again if this went in. http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/aviation-security/2008/Jul/01/want-some-torture-with-your-peanuts/ _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I've long stopped caring what you say, it's just fun to push your buttons. You just troll, nothing else. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

I bet this is overlooked in most media today. But I'm sure we will hear plenty of junk on how patriotic one of them is or isn't....or maybe we can start talking about someone that Obama once knew in 4th grade that now does something odd. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121503532000824249.html?mod=googlenews_wsj _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Yes, your posts were _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

There was another segment on Olbermann tonight (hosted by Rachel Maddow, Keith is taking a few days off) and we all know what an extreme right wing group that is! BUT WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE!?!?! GRR! ANGRY! LIBERALS SMASH!!!! I guess I feel sorry for those on the right that feel that every dissident view needs spin, press releases, strawmen and Rush to tell them to go out and cause voter fraud. I mean, something this complex....to dislike a point of view but agree with the overall platform/issues?!? I mean, it doesn't fit into a nice Cliff Notes Partisan Package that you will read on the bottom of a news ticker. Liberals and faith together?!?! YOU GOT CHOCOLATE ON MY PEANUT BUTTER (GRRR!) I guess that's why they need OUTRAGE (oh ya, grr) _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/04/17/060417fa_fact read that and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7486338.stm draw your own conclusions _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....

Clearly Grover Norquist wasn't adding anything racist to the conservative mix of bullshit talking points. I see a few of the typical liberal posters that are on dz.com posting that they do not agree with this. I'm sure their opinions, like mine, are the same on this topic now as it was back the. Use the search function and see our outrage the last time this came up. What I'm curious on is all the conservatives that bitched about the Habeas Corpus stuff not commenting on my post related to the first appeal. If I was to take your line of posting I would make some claim that you no longer care or some crap. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again.....