Kennedy

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty goddamned stupid to go firing artillery without following your own guidelines. Particularly when your backstop is residential neighborhoods. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I'd rather he rot in Leavenworth (well, its UK equivalent anyway) for going AWOL, etc. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php?f=0-MARINEPAPER-723019.php witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

If you go back and read the thread, none of the gun owners or gun rights supporters are making excuses for the agent who shot himself. Gun owners are the first people to require strict discipline and advocate harsh consequences. What bothers the gun owners most (even more than the fact that the agent still has a badge), is that some are trying to project his lack of safety onto all of us. I agree. I can't believe they handed him a rifle after he shot himself with his own gun. The kids were smart enough to object. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

OK, John. Go ahead and share with the class. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Instead of using a jumping analogy (since he wasn't giving a live fire shooting scenario demonstration), how about we use a scenario on the ground . Everything was under his control, right? And that only happens on the ground in skydiving, so let's use that. This agent's injury is like a rigger openning a reserve while leaning over the rig, thereby breaking his own nose and bleeding on the rig. Wouldn't you call that guy an idiot? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

While I completely agree about the jumper's self-denial mechanism (which has cross-overs everywhere), I must say that self-agrandizement is not why I called this agent an idiot. He broke three out of four rules for safe handling. That's not like Guy or Ponce or DeGayardon or Rob Harris any other shit-hot jumper going in because something bad happened. It's more akin to one of them jumping a main with gaping holes in it while their reserve handle is tied to the rig by tube stows. Yeah, I might call one of them nasty names if they had done that. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I don't know why I bother somtimes, but hey, let's tear this one apart too. Was this agent even a gun supporter? If he was, does one stupid mistake by one member make every member of the group unable to be taken seriously? If so, should I tell you a story about stupid mistakes by some college professors? Would their mistakes mean I can't take you seriously? edit: it is hard to take the word of federal agencies that firearms accidents are declining, and have been, and will probabnly continue to do so? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Some cases to help you decide, but I'm not telling what they say. South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed.433 (1856) (the U.S. Supreme Court) DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 489 U.S. 189, 109 S.Ct. 998, 1989 Bowers v. Devito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) Warren v. District of Columbia (444 A.2d 1, 1981) Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal.App.3d 6, 120 Cal.Rptr. 5 (1975) Davidson v. City of Westminister, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252 (1982) Westbrooks v. State, 173 Cal.App.3d 1203, 219 Cal.Rtr. 674 (1985)\ Ne Casek v. City of Los Angeles, 233 Cal.App.2d 131, 43 Cal.Rptr. 294 (1965) Susman v. City of Los Angeles, et al., 269 Cal.App.2d 803, 75 Cal.Rptr. 240 (1969) Antique Arts Corp. v. City of Torrence, 39 Cal.App.3d 588, 114 Cal.Rptr. 332 (1974) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So, do the police have to protect you? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/17/60minutes/main681416.shtml witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Switzerland. http://www.swissgetaway.com/lowcrime.html http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd061099b.html http://ecclesia.org/truth/swiss.html You really need to get it through your head that there are: countries with more guns and less crime than the US countries with fewer guns and less crime than the US countries with more guns and more crime than the US countries with fewer guns and more crime than the US The guns don't cause crime in the US, or anywhere else, anymore than cars cause police chases. Please present facts to support your assertion that guns manufacturing is a large industry. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Oh joy, another "blood running in the streets" reply, another "guns cause more crime" answer. Do you really believe this tripe, or do you just like annoying people? What is it that makes some people so convinced that a gun turns good people bad? We already trust teachers to care for children, we already trust pilots with huge, fast, explosive planes, but when someone talks about guns, suddenly these othewise trustworthy men and women become suspects. Why? hint: it's called projection, and gun-banners need to get past it OK, this may be difficult for you, so read slowly. There are more sources for gun information than the NRA and VPC. There are scientific studies done with grants, not lobbyists' money. There are government statistics. There are even a few studies done directly for the government. These are legitemate sources for discussion of cost benefit and other statistics. These are the sources I use, the sources I cite when arguing facts with people. What are you going to use to disprove them? Well, if you use a biased, unreliable, non-scientific source, then yes, I will bash them. What's the matter? You know you won't be able to find a legitemate source, so you preemptively try to undermine my having to state as much? ps - The Brdy Campaign and VPC have both put out such ridiculous statistics and claims that various agencies and reserachers have had to hold press conferences to speak out about the mis-use of their studies. The first one coming to mind is ATF repeatedly stating that gun traces are not a good indicator of guns used in crime, or crime levels overall (in response to Bradys claiming the AWB was effective because of reduced traces). witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-22-2005/0003239503&EDATE= witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

he we todd ed witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

PM sent, and yes, dispensing self defense advice on the internet does bring a liabilty. You'd never lose in court, but do you want to face the risk of having to defend yourself there? I'm as worried about that as I am about defending myself on the street. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Looking at it the wrong way around... the American people would never let it be changed... I know this is where all the macho talk comes in and the I'll kill anybody who tries to take my guns and all that stuff. I have stated before I could care less if you guys have guns or not, doesn't affect me. Just unfortunate for the occasional high school student and teachers. It's unfortunate that people are victimized by criminals in general, but it's hardly unfortunate that guns are available. It's very fortunate for a lot of people that they have access to the ultimate equalizer. JUST LOOK AT THE MILLIONS OF CRIMES AND THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF LIVES SAVED [I]EVERY YEAR.[/B][/I] You really need to realize that the problem is the kid (and whatever warped him) and the failure to recognize and act on warning signs. ps - the number of guns required to satisfy the criminal market is miniscule compared to teh number of guns available, and the black market will always be able ot supply those guns. No legislation has ever been able to stop a black market. (drugs, alcohol, prostitution, etc) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Correction, living in Europe means living in a free minded world. I love my personal freedom, just f.e., even telling my own chancellor he's an a***hole. That will cost some Euros but, what a goooood feeling: I told him! Go and tell buddy Georgie he is: You will find yourself quickly somewhere else w/o any return ticket. Really? I just witnessed a person send the president an very unfriendly e-mail. It included the word a$$hole. And many other colorful words, too, some in very imaginative connections. He is still in his apartment, annoying people and being his liberal little self. Do you really think some 2005 version of the Gestapo is going to swoop down on him and ship him off to a labor camp? Right, find out about socialism, governmental involvement in personal life, censorship of press and speech, and government protecting people from themselves. Yeah, that's sure presonal freedom to me. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

That line is so perfect for Dennis Leary. I will always associate him with that, and the "Big N, Little y, HUGE FUCKING Q." It really is funny* how so many people think everyone should have freedom to do as they wish, as long as they only want to do what is nice and approved. * - funny disturbing, not at all "funny ha ha" witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Score one more for the good guys!! witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Between you, kallend, and your strawmen, constructive discussion is becoming very, very difficult. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Daley's been demoted from Furher? Good news, he's on the way down! witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

More self defense advice from the uninformed. Actually, John there are a number of steps one could use in the "out walking alone when it's dark" scenario to force the situation to a favorable conclusion. For the same reason as Dave, I'll not be giving out self defense advice for outside the home, but rest assured there are better ways. I know you are an intelligent man, so why must you continue to assume that CCW permit holders will pull their gun at every chance? I know you understand there are intermediate steps that we can take. Besides, even if someone did take you ill-thought-out advice, simply following the four basic rules of gun safety would prevent a bad outcome. (specifically rule four: always know your target and what lies beyond) Responsoble gun owners don't shoot without positively identifying the target. (not all owners, not even all cops, follow this rule, but safe gun handlers do). witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Actually yes, you are wrong. JohnRich was refering to the incident in the Minnesota highschool and he literally said What stopped the bad guy with the gun? Good guys that showed up with more guns. The presence of counter-fire capability ended the shooting spree. The shooter knew his gig was up. and And increasing the lead/air ratio in self defense to minimize casualties amongst the good guys, is a good thing. Considering it was said in the context of a highschool, that counter-fire capabilities must surely come from either students or teachers (good guys). He also said that to increase the lead/air ratio among the good guys (rest of students and teachers) is a good thing. OK, try to keep up. I asked if anyone had suggested students be allowed access to firearms during school. The answer is no. I asked if anyone suggested all teachers must be armed with firearms. Again, the answer is no. If you want to "prove me wrong," you have to actually answer my questions. John suggested that if a teacher wants access to a firearm in school, it should be allowed. You do understand that is not the same thing as issuing them to every staff member, right? You are capable of understanding that difference, yes? I actually did, but i doubt you want to base your defense of gun ownership on isolated cases. If so, you should give up your toys for all the times that a teenager has stolen a legally owned gun from his father and go into a killing spree. Isolated cases? I guess you need to define that, because one could easily argue that school shootings are isolated cases, so maybe you thinks everyone should be allowed guns in schools. Afterall, you wouldn't want to base your school polkicy on "isolated cases," would you? Also, I wasn't defending gun ownership. I was supporting the idea that staff should be allowed access to firearms to defend themselves and students. Obviously there aren't more Myricks because what he did was illegal. Few teachers want to break the law for "isolated cases," don't you think? It's not like guns were at all the scenes and only helped in Myrick's case. The fact is guns in the hands of staff were only at one scene, and they allowed the staff to make the situation better. This is the most patently absurd notion I've read in quite some time, even from you. Guns are used to murder Americans in the neighborhood of nine to twelve thousand times each year. They are used in self defense millions of times each year to stop attacks by criminals. There are several studies done on defensive gun uses (DGUs) and all have concluded huge numbers of self defense uses occur each year. The FBI puts murders by firearm at 9,638 for 2003. So go ahead, tell me what statistics "prove me wrong." Go ahead and show that guns are used to take life more often than save life. I dare you. ps - I'm sure you'll mention the US military killing/death, so I'll discount that now. First, that has nothing to do with guns in the USA, so I hope you can see how irrelevant those nubmers would be. Second, since the military is sucha completely different situation from US civilian life, one could easily argue that every gun in the military is used to save life. So please, either ignore military numbers and we can try for a constructive conversation, or use those numbers and prove my assertions correct. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Absolutely, utterly incorrect. Please, at least take one self defense course before offering advice on self defense to others. Those who wish to educate themselves might now know how bad your ideas really are. By that late in the scenario, too many mistakes have been made to hope for the best solution. Anyone with any sort of real training would understand how to avoid letting it deteriorate so far. Also, statistically, you are most likely to escape injury during an attack if you resist with a gun. After that is offering no resistance, then all other forms of active resistance. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I'd have said the same to you, but I know you don't have one.' That's only a debate to people too thick to read simple statistics. It's resolved to everyone else. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*