Ron

Its clear you were never in the military. I want a strong military.... No one from N Korea has attacked the US. N Korea is just trying to stay alive...They don't support terror networks. Yes Bush is doing a good job. The economy is showing great signs of recovery. We have not had another attack on American soil. An evil leader that supported terroists is gone. All this an not one blowjob from an intern "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im voting for Dove. I can't help it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends....I have not jumped much since the Nationals. When training its around 30 jumps mth AVG. Most is 160 in one mth. So far Dec I have not jumped once. I have averaged about 300 a year for 10 years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well it is clear it was lack of flying the canopy... However, he might have been fine under a 150 sized elliptical. Several people thought he would be fine under a elliptical 150. However a Safire 149 is not 150. So he went from a square 170 to an elliptical 135. The large jump in size I think was the major factor. No one would have told him he should go from a 170 to an elliptical 135. But due to the sizing differences...Thats what happened. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have the video...from the plane and from the ground.... YIKES!!!! BIG Trees! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Shakespeare wrote When you realize that Skydiving is a part of your life, that being a skydiver is one part you play not your whole life. When you see skydiving as something that you do, and not something that you are. Then you can have balance in your life...Balance in life is everything. Funny enough, when you don't run around acting like you are a skydiver....Then you are one. When you feel like you have to tell people you skydive then you are not yet a skydiver...You are trying to convince people of something you are not sure about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You may have the answer, but not the total answer,the correct answer for that person, or the knowledge base to get that information to them. Lets say that someone is having a problem with their landings...You tell them what you know from your experience. (I know you have gone through canopy training) But lets say they are jumping an Aerodyne SR-71,a Prodigy, or an Xcaliber. While your advice might work well on a Navigator....It might really hurt them if they try it on these canopies. Or maybe you learned in Chicago, and you were jumping a 1.1 loaded canopy at 20 jumps...And he learned on a Maverick....Both very different canopies and totaly different problems. You have to know this to give advice. When my old DZ first got the Navigators, all the instructors had to jump them to be able to understand how they flew. I know I guy with a broken leg...He had a 170, and wanted to down size. So he got a Safire 149. However, a Safire 149 is really about the size of a 135. So at 100 jumps he was on a 1.5 loaded canopy....He thought he was going to be loading it around 1.2,1.3. Several folks didn't know that the Safire was measured differently told him he would be fine. So while he might have been fine under a real 150 sized canopy...He was not ready for a 135. The people giving advice didn't know about the size difference, and while their advice might have been OK for a 150, since they didn't know he jumped a 135. I don't teach AFF students...I don't even talk to them if they ask me a question. I take them to an AFF Instructor (If I can I take them to THEIR AFF I). Now I have 3,000 jumps, been a static line Instructor since like 1994, I coach 4 way teams, and I coach in the tunnel...NONE OF THIS MAKES ME QUALIFIED TO TEACH AN AFF STUDENT. Could I do it? Maybe, but Im not qualified so I don't. And I might screw with the instructors big plan by trying to teach them something before they are ready. By giving advice...even if its right, you could be causing more problems than you are fixing. No I see it as giving more credit to the folks that are qualified, than negating the newer jumpers knowledge. Again you can cause more trouble than you fix if you don't have the knowledge base to work from. I see AFF I's from other DZ's who are asked to help at my DZ teach the wrong TLA's for a dive...(Not so much since the ISP, but it used to be that way) All great...When you see a SAFTEY issue...By all means open your mouth. The chest strap is a perfect example. It might be better to have an S&TA or instructor talk to them.....Just cause the person might take advice from them better than from you..Again you might have the right advice, but with 100 jumps they might not listen. In this case it would be better to take them to an Instructor. You have knowledge, but not much experience. You may forget something, or not be able to get the whole picture....Why should you teach it when there are qualified folks walking around...(Like I said I don't teach AFF students even though I know what to say) Again a SAFTEY issue...Not about instruction. But still the local swoop god is more QUALIFIED to answer his questions than you. And he might take that info from a guy on the pro swoop tour, and not from someone with 100 jumps. And thats what you should do.... Its about QUALIFICATIONS....not knowledge. The people that have the qualifications have shown that they have the knowledge, the whole picture, and know how to teach it. The reason is that the advice may SOUND good, but may not be the correct advice. If you ask me how to do a turn Im going to tell you to use your knees, dig one down and lay it over, paddle the hands and at no time go past 45 degrees with any control service or bend your spine. If not done right it will flip you over on your back. So an AFF student does not need to know that. At one time the hot ticket to turn was to bend your spine...So while you may have knowledge...It may not be right. Again its about QUALIFICATION, not knowledge...An Instructor or an S&TA has both. You have only one. I would sugest that people take knowledge from people with qualifications....not just knowledge...I have show here several times that the knowledge may be wrong, not right for that application, or outdated. If you want to learn to swoop find a swoop course. Want to learn to freefly? Get a freefly coach. Want to learn to turn 4way? Get a 4way coach. Want to prepare for the AFF eval course? Get an AFF evaluator and work with them. It would be stupid for you to get Freefly advice from me (I have maybe 100 FF jumps)...And I would be stupid to give it to you. But some folks on here, and at the DZ will give it even if they are not qualified. I would say that unless you have the QUALIFICATIONS....Please bring up saftey issues "Hey dude your chest strap is undone", but don't TEACH people how to do things...Direct them to someone who is qualified. you may do more harm than good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I want one.....Scratch that I NEED one. I have told folks several times that if I had a good Acro plane I could easily quit jumping. I have time in Decathalons, Citabrias some time in a Great Lakes...But nothing in something like that. I have toyed with the idea of renting a Pitts or and Edge....Now Im thinking about it again. DAMN YOU ALL!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Id like to take a second and talk about this. This is a perfect example of a problem that you and I have been talking about. You think I'm an asshole that goes around yelling information. But Im not....It is a back up when I am fed up. And instead of giving up I go to the last chance way of giving information. Now...How that relates to this post..... You and I on another thread had been talking about how people don't listen when the instructor yells.....A valid point even if its not 100% true. Different people learn in different ways. And sometimes it takes getting slapped (Verbally "What are you wanting to die!" or physicly "Keep your gaurd up!") to get the point accross. But what you don't see with me is the many times I never have to go to asshole mode....As they say it never makes the papers. Again how it ties in here....You brought that talk into a different thread (Which you have valid points)...However, your post here made it look like you have a problem with THIS lesson, not the other. So you brought bad feelings and lessons from the past into a current lesson. And others not knowing about the other thread, thought you were being rude. And as it is on here....People don't always know the whole story behind the lesson...Or the approach taken. You do have valid points.....But I hope you can see from this example how I am not always a jackass (Well maybe) unless I have to be. I still think its better to be an ass than just giving up. I have seen way to many people put into the ground to think any other way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which is it? She was not kicked off? Or she was, but not for deficient skill? Um she still got kicked off...And I know about the situation since I did get phone calls, PM's and Emails from people I trust. And I was the one that talked to the S&TA at Zhills to warn him. And my whole point on this thread, and the reason for this thread was about attitudes...Not skill. I EXPECT someone with 100 jumps to screw up. It is how they react to that that makes them a XXXX-jump wonder. She did screw up...By her own admission. But like I said several times I have never seen someone kicked off a DZ for screwing up, unless their was attitude when people approched them about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It can cause problems..I know a guy that had a Sabre 170 and he wanted to downsize. So he went and got a Safire 149. The problem is the Safire 149 is really about a 135. He had no idea that canopies were measured differently, in fact most jumpers at the DZ didn't know till after this guy broke his leg. See how it can be an issue "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thanks....And its clear you will never see the direct side of me directed at you. You seem to listen. I wish everyone would. Funny thing. There is another thread on here somewhere were a few folks are talking about how ashamed they are when they look back on their old posts...how they thought they knew what they were talking about, but now see how dumb they were. The funnier thing is I think everyone if they were honest would say the same for themselves. I do.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very good...don't pretend that this sport is safe...It's not. Again good point. You can skydive with safety as a priority and have fun...Skydiving with fun as a priority is not always safe. Good take it a step further...You are not done until you are out of the landing area....I have seen many folks get hurt just walking off the field. You could even go so far to say that you are never done. Why whould this site be so popular if not for learning all the time...(And of course talking about politics and boobies) and a good one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But sometimes you over hear the Drill Sergeant when its not directed at you. This is VERY common on here. Just as Nightingales post was not about this thread, but a contiuation of another. Also, sometimes people don't move on after an encounter with the Drill Sergeant, and hold on to the negative vibe...Then that is the only way the will listen to you. Case in point Nightingale is bringing up another post into this one. I always start nice...I don't sugar coat it, but then again the ground does not give a crap about how nice you are. See rule #3. You only become stupid when you will not listen and think you know it all. This also may not be HIS fault....You are the one that controls how you react to an event. He is giving the information....You CHOSE to let yourself feel stupid. My Drill Sergeants called me all kinds of names, made comments asking if my Mom had any children that lived....I didn't take that personal. In ZHills a common greating is "Hey ASSHOLE!" Like I said....read rule #3. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I only become rude when the newbies don't listen.... Have you not learned that yet? The ground does not give a shit about "nice". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

N/A

I have been booted from General.....I wonder if I should put it in Saftey and training? Greenies? If so can you move it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

#1 Realizing that you don't know shit, and probley never will. No matter how many jumps you have, you don't know it all, and never will. If you approach skydiving as a newbie you will be open to the lesson. If you think you know it all, you will lose the lesson. As soon as I think I know what I am doing....I try to freefly. I have 3,000 jumps, and most that know me know me know I can turn 4way pretty well (16.5 avg). And I know how to swoop pretty good. But I know jack shit about freeflying. So as soon as I start to think I have a clue, I find some guy with 100 total jumps and 90 freefly jumps to make me look stupid. Humility is good. Which leads to lesson #2 #2 Skill in one area does not always transfer to another. You may be a pilot, but I have seen comercial pilots die under a good canopy. I am pretty good at 4way, but I freefly like shit. I can turn points better than a large number of AFF Instructors...But to let me do AFF would be dangerous. I listen to Tandem guys with more tandems than me. Before I started doing video I talked to the video guys... Before I did some freefly I walked up to the freeflyers and asked them if my gear was ok....now I know enough to know if my gear is ok...but since I was doing something new...I went to the subject matter experts for a second opinion. #3 You don't have to like the teacher to learn the lesson You may not like the way the lesson is brought to you... It may be from a person you don't like. (I didn't like my Drill Instructors in Basic, but I learned a lot from them). It may be in a way you don't like it. (You learn a lot from breaking your leg...You may not like the lesson, but you learn a lot.) If you expect all the teachers to sugar coat the lessons, or you will not listen to them...you are gonna lose a lot of lessons (And maybe learn the hard way..... broken leg). The ground does not care how nice you are, or what you meant to do....It will kill the nicest guys along with the assholes if either screws up.... So listen to the teachers even if you don't like the approach #4 As soon as you start to skydive for yourself, and no one else..You make a large step and become a better person. When we start we are all so damn jazzed about this sport that we annoy the hell out of our whuffo friends. Many times we lose them since all we talk about is jumping, and they don't understand and never will. When you stop thinking of yourself as a skydiver....And think of skydiving as something you do, not something you are...You will be one step closer to really understanding it all. And this includes gear selection and type of skydiving... If you buy a canopy because you like it, and not because its cool...you are well on your way. I have a friend that I really respect. Tony Hathaway. He has over 10,000 jumps. He jumps a Spector 120. I tease him about being old and jumping an old guys canopy...but he jumps it because he likes it...not because its cool. I know a guy that had 400 jumps and got a Velocity 106. He was not ready for this canopy, but he though he was. He went up to a friend of mine that is on the US womens team and asked her why she jumped a Stiletto. "You have 2,000 jumps, don't you feel ready for a Velocity?" He does not get it....Jump what you like, not whats cool. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No its the attitude that goes with it. Like I said I know a guy that has different helmuts for diffferent jumpsuits... When skydiving becomes a matter of fashion, not function.. It gets nuts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know. It might be a combination of: 1. This is the way we have always done it. Why change a Stiletto 120 to a Stiletto 133? Now you have to know year it was made. It just confuses things. 2. Marketing like you said. Most don't know squat about canopy sizes.... 3. We are the big kids on the block...you want to all measure the same way...let it be our way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did one better...I went with him. I didn't have to get involved since it was more windy, and they were not even flying. But the next weekend this guy was saying how we treat him like a baby. And how we are all assholes. This is an example of the kind of BS that XXX jump wonders do to give them that name. This guy later went on to get a smaller canopy and break his leg BTW. Edit to add: You don't have to like the person or the approach to learn the lesson. I learned a lot in basic training...but I hated the DI's and the methods of instruction. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But you said you deleted it because you knew who it was from and that I didn't have permission. Me: And you wrote: And in fact you don't...since I just talked to him this morning... Just admit that you lied and deleted it just cause you wanted to.... Be the big man and admit you lied. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well it never starts that way... It usually goes like this (A real conversation I have had: We are standing at manifest in Zhills. Guy with 80 jumps: Hey how do you get to X DZ? I give the guy directions then ask "Why are you goin there, they only have a Cessna?" Guy: Well the instructors said its to windy for me to jump today, so Im going to another DZ. Me: You know if its to windy here its probley to windy there as well. Guy: Well I called them and told them I had 200 jumps and they said its OK. Me: But it still is not safe even if they say its OK, and you don't have 100 jumps yet. Guy: Why don't you assholes leave me alone, I know what I am doing, and I'm sick of being treated like a student! Or this one: Guy: Im getting a (1.5 wingloaded elliptical canopy ) Me: How many jumps do you have? Guy: Enough. Me: Well last time I checked you only had 150 jumps, you might not be ready for that canopy yet. You have a 1.2 loaded Sabre now, and a 1.5 load elliptical is VERY different. Maybe you should not push it so hard? Most of the fatalities in this sport are under good canopies now. Guy: I know what I am doing! I have stood up all my landings since I had 20 jumps. Me: Can you land standing in the peas 99% of the time? Guy: I don't want to do accuracy, I want to learn to swoop, and Bob said I needed another canopy to learn. Me: Thats not true, you can learn how to swoop under almost any wing. Your 1.2 loaded Sabre can be swooped. Guy: Bob said I will be fine, and that I will just have to be careful at first. I don't want to buy another canopy in 50 jumps when I am bored with this one. You just don't want to see me jump a smaller canopy than you. Anyway after 10 years of this.....Trying to give advice and then getting it thrown in your face....It gets old. Hey how about my favorite comment right now from a guy. (It's in bold) He is trying to swoop the pond here. He has an 88 Xbraced canopy. And he misses like over half the pond. then this guy with 500 jumps and a Stiletto 120 does the whole pond, and does it well. I tell the Stiletto guy that he did really well. In fact better than all the Xbraced pilots... The 88 guy says "no he didn't" I say yeah, he did, he did the whole pond, you only did less than half. 88 says "Well the reason he did better was because I have the more complex canopy" I say "you mean he did better than you because you had the better canopy?...that makes no sense!" 88: "Well I don't see you swooping the pond, why don't you just shut up." It kills me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When did it come out? was PD already using another method? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep....Except for the XXX-jump wonders we are talking about. they already know it all, and will not listen. Yep, and I did this for a while.....But you get sick of seeing broken people. This is why I have my very direct attitude now. I say it like it is, and then walk away. True... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334