Ron

And if its just teams....Who is he gonna jump with? ZHills has LO's on every jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I guess I don't know what I am talking about. Check Racers website. Heres another: Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 1/30/1997 Taupo, New Zealand MAL,DMAL? 35 2500 ?/Y Description: After cutting away from a malfunction, it appears one riser hung up, while the side with the RSL released, casuing the reserve to deploy between the remaining riser. This riser then seperated, and the main ending up choking off the reserve. The pair decended on the partially inflated main which was caught on the wholly uninflated reserve. Lessons:Some of the above is speculation, but it's a good reminder to perform your three ring maintenance regularly. If you don't know what I'm referring to, you should talk to your local rigger. In a nutshell, disconnect your main, flex the webbing of the three ring, clean the yellow cable with a dry cloth, (for metal housings) lightly oil the cable, reconnect the main, perform a line check, and pack it. How about this one? 6/22/1997 Umatilla, FL MAL? 42 7500 Y?/Y Description: At the end of a normal tandem skydiver, the student pulled the ripcord at about 5500 feet. The left main riser broke, which in turn activated the reserve static line lanyard (RSL). The RSL immediately pulled the reserve ripcord cables while the right-hand main riser was still attached. The reserve pilot chute and free-bag cleared, but the reserve canopy entangled with the spinning main. The main was then cut away, but failed to clear the reserve. The student survived the landing, the JM did not. The Master 425 main was equipped Dacron with suspension lines. The type VII risers were manufactured in May 1996 and had the new heavy duty 3-rings. The rings were properly positioned during drogue fall, and appeared normal. The type VII webbing broke about 1" above the lower end; the type IV holding the small ring broke just below the grommet. Neither of the two rings from the left riser were recovered, nor was the cutaway handle or the reserve ripcord. All equipment was less than three years old and in good condition. Instructor and student total weight was about 380 pounds. Lessons:Perhaps a defective riser? Heres another Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 7/12/2000 Elsinore, CA DMAL 27 Y/Y Description: The Navy was at Elsinore training Seals; they had their own instructors and their own equipment. At the time of this report, no detailed analysis of the rig has yet been made. This report is based on preliminary examinations and eyewitness accounts. The student ( training under the Navy's equivalent of AFF) deployed his main normally at around 4500 feet. During the main deployment the RSL somehow deployed his reserve which then entangled in the main. Someone supposedly had seen that his main was square and apparently flyable while the reserve was completely fouled and entangled in his main lines. No one directly witnessed the incident while the student was between 4000 and 2500 feet. Somewhere during that interval the student apparently cutaway his main which then collapsed and remained entangled with his fouled reserve. It was believed that if he had not cutaway, he may have been able to land relatively safely on his main. The reserve was apparently NOT deployed by his CYPRES: the preliminary examination revealed a kink in the reserve ripcord where the RSL must have pulled against it while it was still under tension from the closing loop. As soon as the rig is released by the coroner more detailed examinations are going to happen by the DZO, the USPA, the rig manufacturer and the Navy. It is unknown at this time what pulled the RSL, it may have been improperly routed and was pulled on line stretch, or it may have been caught by a toggle. It is also unknown if this type of malfunction is particular to this type of rig or is an industry-wide concern. The Navy has stood down their training and grounded all of their equipment until more is known about the true cause of the incident. Lessons:Dual canopy out malfunctions are nasty. Discuss appropriate procedures with a local instructor. Cutting away from an inflated main when the reserve fouled is not a recommended course of action. One that can show the drawbacks of an RSL. Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 9/22/2001 Picton, Australia DMAL 34 360 ?/Y Description: After a camera jump, this jumper experienced spinning line twists on his Stilleto 135. He was unable to clear them and cutaway at perhaps 1800'. His reserve (an Airforce 120) opened (via RSL, though reserve handle was also pulled roughly simultaneously) slider-up with line twists, and he impacted in a spin still trying to kick out of the twists. The reserve was very highly loaded, at 1.7 lb/ft^2. Video review of the incident shows that the deceased may have been kicking the wrong direction to get the reserve to untwist, and was not observed to be pulling the risers apart to aid the untwisting. Lessons:There is some reason to believe that pausing briefly after cutting away from a seriously spinning malfunction can aid in reserve deployment. However, pausing also eats up valuable altitude, which is also an increased risk. An RSL removes your choice in this matter, but does insure a rapid deployment after a low cutaway. Note that this forum doesn't post the incidents where someone cutaway low, and their RSL saves them. Another one. 9/30/2001 Opelika, AL DMAL 48 308 Y/Y Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details. Lessons:RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL. There are more, but I don't have time to find them. RSL have saved, and they have also killed people. And proper training can negate the benefits of an RSL....But they CAN kill you. So why not train more, and leave off things that can kill you that you don't NEED? Training, not toys makes you safer... If you can't understand that..THEN YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I talked about doing this for an ad. for PA back when they released the Batwing. Glad someone did it...It looks very cool. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Private pilot. Around 120 hrs.... Around 20 hrs of Acro. 10 years 3,000 jumps SL I and Tandem I. Started both about the same time...Guess what I liked better? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is a start. short version...Humility is good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its a good rule...Or better its a good starting point. I don't try twice and give up...But you should. I have an altitude that is my hard deck...At this altitude I WILL STOP THE SKYDIVE....I don't care how I do it...The skydive must end. 1. You did what you were trained to do. 2. You lived. Both of those tell me you did fine....Im not in the habbit of telling people who lived how they could have done better. Could it have been handled "better"? Who cares? You lived, good job. People have to land somewhere...I have a buddy that had to step back to keep from getting hit once. I pull at 2,500. When I had 300-400 jumps and was bullet proof I used to pull at 1,200-1,500...Then I got a tad smarter. Having done all the stupid things I could think of...I would rather the new guys not make the same STUPID mistakes. I have always been told, and told others that its 9 seconds for the first thousand, and 6 seconds every thousand after that. So its 12 seconds, but the last two don't really count unless you have already done something before you get there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. You can't tell when it goes....Your main goes so fast. I didn't believe this myself till I saw a video of this happening to another jumper. Yes. That is the loss of altitude awareness I was talking about. Unless he lost track of altitude. Witness on the ground. Oscar is an AMAZING man. He brought the rig back to RWS...When he handed in the rig...He apologized for not being able to get the blood stains out!!! Not only did he bring the rig back from overseas, but he tried to CLEAN HIS SONS BLOOD off of it. And he gave me comfort while I cried like a baby at Glenns funeral. He is a strong man. He never knew it was gone...And lost track of it all...Think about it, 2 grand is 6 seconds from impact. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you did it wrong, by going to a newspaper report. Failed to open huh? Well he did pull it. And it did open. (more on this later) Well I jumped that very same canopy a Sabre 107 at the Nationals in 2002. It was NOT torn. BTW I also had the reserve that he had in his rig that he bounced with in my rig. I did that so he could be at nationals with us...I was going to jump the rig, but we could not get the blood stains out of it. So you just assumed you were right and I was wrong???? You just assumed that a whuffo news artical is more accurate than me???? And BTW it is in one of the sites.....Check #1 for 2002 Here So maybe your "research" was not very good huh? Maybe you don't know it all, or make desicions with less than enough info? The real story...If you care since you already "know it all" from the newspaper.....You probley don't want to hear this...How could I have it right and the newspaper have it wrong? Glenn and his Dad were down in the Dominican Rebublic. His Dad (Oscar...a GREAT man) was filming his sons last jump. On Frost we had a practice of "fruit looping" each other at break off. Basicly it was a gang pile right before break off. We would try to tackle someone and throw them. Glenn grabbed a guy and the guy grabbed Glenn. The problem is he grabbed a lowtimer and the lowtimer grab Glenns Cutaway handle...When they broke you can see the handle fly past the camera. Glenn pulled his main....And since it was cutaway it left. Glenn lost altitude awarness, and blew right through all of the Emergency altitudes. He spent the rest of his life trying to get the main out. He rolled about 20 degrees to his left and put his arms in front of his face...and hit like that. But what am I thinking???!?!?! You already "know it all" don't you. But I got this info from his Dad, a video tape, and witnesses on the ground...Your research was a whuffo newspaper artical...Your right, Im wrong, what was I thinking? Again you are wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, and I never said anything about it did I? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Chances are if the rigger said no...There is a reason. Do you want to risk your BF life on a canopy that someone grounded? Parachutes don't last forever. I have heard several riggers refuse to pack gear over 20 years old.... Think about it...If it fails....he is dead. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh Im not anoyed with inexperienced jumpers....Im annoyed with inexperienced jumpers THAT THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL....That is a BIG difference. Same could be said for you...You are quoteing from others experiences...And websites...Mine are all my experiences...Things you don't know about. You have made it quite clear that you think you know more about this than me...So Im not going to argue with you...you will not listen, so why should I talk? You said then BTW my old piece partner was a tunnel rat...He is dead now since he lost altitude awareness..he could skydive circles around me...But he could not save his life when he needed to. Then you say That seems like bashing skydiving to me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If your opinion only mattered to you...Then I would not be reading it.... Bingo!!! You don't have to fear it...just respect it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are kinda missing my point. To a student they are thinking about the big things. Mainly not dying. That point of view is valid, but missing the big picture. Sometimes they lie to themselves (or are lied to by others) and told that skydiving is safe....Its not. It is a very dangerous situation that you put yourself into. You have 1:30 seconds to stop a most certain death. To add in some fun we only try to stop it in the last 15-20 seconds. Name one sport where you start a chain of events that WILL end in your death if you don't do the right thing in 15-20 seconds. Now add in the fact that when you try to stop your death...things like malfuntions could happen that put you right back into a life a death struggle. Now more seasoned jumpers know this, and with training and equipment you can limit the risk so that it is acceptable. But never forget that you WILL die if you screw up...And even if you do everything right you could STILL die. Its not about the PERCEPTION of the event...To you a 1 min skydive where your main goal is to survive is very short....To me, If I did a solo...It would be the longets 1:30 you could imagine...Hell I might even get bored. Thats perception. The event is started when you put yourself in imediate harms way..And only training will save you. Do you see the difference? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im more than willing to teach, been doing it since 1994. But are you really willing to listen? We seem to have two accidents. Bad spot I'll give you. But you yourself said that you have learned to expect them And for the record his canopy snagged a tree that casued the turn...so thats ONE mistake. He was passed out before the canopy deployed, by his AAD...Hell, your right..NO mistake. Hell, I have shown you where 2 freefall colisions killed people (One mistake). 2 canopy collisions have killed people (one mistake). 2 toggles got stuck (one mistake). One where a guy just seemed to pass out. And TWO where the folks did everything right and still died. Plus all those hook turns are ONE mistake. You asked for examples I gave you plenty...Fell free to ignore me, and them. Maybe Im just tired of trying to get folks that think they know everything to realize they don't? I have more "real" freefall time than you have "simulated"...I also have more tunnel time than you do BTW. But you want to sit there and ignore me fine...What the hell would I know? Im done here people like you that "know it all" at 50 jumps are not worth my time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good post... Which do you think has a better picture of the EVENT that is a skydive? The guy that has been in it for years and has done it many times, or the guy that is in AFF? And we don't have a skewed view....You didn't fail...you lived and thats the main thing. you just didn't meet the TLO's for those levels....Guess what? No one will care in 2 years and 300 more jumps that you didn't pass AFF in 7 levels. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok, we can play that. But its clear you are another person who is "right" and will not listen. Who said a high wingloading is not recomended? I have several jumps at 2.5 to one, and Im fine. She was not a student...so the BSR did not apply to her. Im not going into each accident...Besides you are already wrong on two. Thats becasue most jumpers with over 1,000 jumps don't waste time typing to folks with 100 that "know everything". I for some stupid reason still try to make a difference. But everytime I encounter a 100jump wonder that "knows" more than me a little bit of that dies. What more REAL info do you need? One mistake can kill you.....You are going 120 mph at the ground...You a soft non armored mostly liquid, slamming into a rock at 120 mph...Relying on some fabric that can malfunction, explode, and fail in ways that you can't even imagine. If it does not work, or you fail to operate the system in the correct way you will smash into the ground like a water ballon from 3 stories up. Ive seen AFF students lose goggles and not even know they lost them...so this shows that even without hundreds of hrs of tunnel folks can handle things without problems. Why are you even on a skydiving site...It seems all you want to do is bash real skydiving? skydiving is not safe. Get that into your head. From this year...not a no pull. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2004&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2004&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D Jumper pulled, but could not make a safe landing...He is dead. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2003&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2003&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D Just last year read 1,3,5,6,7,9,12,17,21,22 1. Something happened while he was in freefall after breakoff that made it so he landed knocked out under an AAD fire and hit a post and died. Open canopy...still dead. 3. The FAA designated parachute rigger examiner who inspected the equipment found that the steering lines on this equipment could feasibly be trapped when under a load and held in a turning position. A mal that before this most could not imagine. Still she pulled. 5. The jumper was part of a larger freefly group and collided during break-off rendering them both unconcious. The AADs of both jumpers deployed their reserves. One jumper was able to walk away but the other passed away next morning in the hospital. Collision. 6. The jumper was observed at approximately 400 feet under a fully functioning canopy. When next observed at approximately 200-300 the jumper appeared to have twists in his canopy. Winds were approximately 15-20 knots and the jumper was in a turbulent area over large trees and downwind of a hangar. It is not know if the turbulence and/or control inputs induced the twists. The jumper was unable to clear the twists before landing and hit at high speed. Despite swift medical assistance, the jumper died of his injuries. A jumper that had pulled encountered a mal DURRING his canopy ride.(for the record I was one of the medical people there..And I saw him hit.) 7. The jumper was diving down to join to complete a seven way formation skydive but was unable to stop before he collided with another jumper hard Another collision. 9. Two jumpers collided at approximately 30 to 50 feet while on final approach toward the entry gate of a swoop course. And another, this time under canopy...Both had PULLED. 12. Apparently, the failure of the left side of the harness caused the student to suddenly drop in the narness and catch his chin on the chest strap, breaking his neck Just from last year...this jumper did everything right and still died. 17. Inspection of the equipment revealed that the steering line on the right side of the canopy had become entangled with the locking tab of one of the fabric-style connector links used to attach the canopy suspension lines to the riser. Another line issue...Still, she had PULLED. 21. Not an easy situation to deal with. The outcome may have been different if the deceased had cutaway first. Then again, he may have impacted without pulling anything after wasting time cutting away. This jumper didn't give up and nor should you. This guy did everything right...And yet he is still dead. 22. This jumper collided with the canopy of his fiancé at approximately 100 feet. He later died from his injuries Another canopy collision. They both had PULLED. So you asked And I didn't even include panic turns and hook turns. We have 2 freefall collisions, 2 canopy collisions, two that did everything right and still died, 3 malfunctions that no one thought of before and one that is iffy when it happens all the time. And this is just last year. 2 that did everything right and died...just last year. You want me to go on? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Does 10 years and 3,000 jumps count? (and BTW over 100 hrs of tunnel as well.) Skydiving is NOT safe. If you think its safe you are fooling yourself. Once you leave the plane you are a course to death, unless you change it. And even when you try to change it it can go wrong. Wrong...One mistake will kill you...Hell as quade already pointed out..You can do everything right and still die. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats due to the fact that the USPA is a giant waste. They don't do much of anything. Before people start AOPA did more to get us back in the air after 9/11, and AOPA does more about airport issues than the USPA ever did, or ever will. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh I still think your gonna kill yourself....But it will not be the canopies fault. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok, but my OPINION...If you can't climb stairs without pain I see real issues with you and sitting in a jump plane, opening , and possible bad landings. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe HeatherB should be doing that "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

????????? Your exit weight is 127.50 pounds??? You weigh around 114 pounds???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

GK team leader John Hoover told me once that the best thing to do if you can't jump is to watch tons of video..... I have like 30 tapes of 4way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, I went back to school. I should have done it years ago, but oh well life happens...Instead of school I did 3,000 jumps. Now I'm back and just took a math self assesment....I did REALLY BAD. Trust me BAD. The fact is that college algebra is what kept me from finishing school 10 years ago. Well I HAVE to take these courses, and even though they are mths away...I need to get a start on getting my brain in gear. Any ideas? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Uh no. In fact my Ex wife didn't know how to pack and I tried to teach her. Annie didn't know how to pack, and I tried to teach her...Heather can learn on her own...I have not had much luck teaching women how to pack....I have had fun trying to teach them, but not much luck "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334