Ron

Simple... Static line you are under supervision longer than AFF. AFF you do it right you are done in 7-8 jumps. S/L it takes 15 or so to be done...On all of those an Instructor is watching you land. So what would make you better? 7 coach jumps under canopy? Or 15? And I will say I trust an S/L students spot much more than an AFF students. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but I also know folks that want to jump what Airspeed jumps. Different tactics for different people. Part of the sponsorship gig is to promote the gear, not just jump it. Notice that on every Jump suit thread on here I thrown in Michigans name? Well yes, I have suit, and its part of my duty to pitch it...But I REALLY believe in the product...Or I would not jump it. In Zhills there is a very large % of jumpers jumping Mikes suits....Of the 4way teams there on the DZ last year...I think they ALL had Mikes suits. And this is a DZ that you can have a bad spot and land at Tony's shop. There are several reasons for that: 1. Mike makes a damn good suit. 2. Mike flies over about twice a mth to measure folks, and bring suits and just hang out at the DZ. 3. The RW coaches on the DZ wear Michigans. 4. The top team at the DZ last year all but one guy had Mikes suits. This is why Mike has his foot in the door at a DZ that traditionaly was owned by Tony. Like it or not, giving gear to folks does work...Or they would not do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats not how it works? Thats it I quit. Whats the point if you can't get all that stuff? True....Most "sponsorships" are just loaners. However in a great number of those, after a good year where you did some good things, I have known a few comapnies to let the person keep the gear. But at times they will ask for it back, or offer to sell it to the person cheap. But this issue is why should Skydiving be any different that the other sports in the world? I know folks in several other sports that get free stuff for almost any reason. Its just how marketing works. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its still not commercialized yet. Not even close. Blame it on the USPA..."From Extreme to Mainstream". But its how the world works....And its not going to change. Some will always get free stuff, some will earn it, some will not. But the cool thing about free enterprise is that if the MAKERS of the gear feel that it is worth it they will do it...If not then they will not. They clearly think it is worth it. Do you know better how to run their company? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And some of them get free rigs...Some don't. Why would skydiving be different that any other thing in the way the world works? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Based on what? Maybe you have not, but people do...In NASCAR...What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. Yep, but what about after they have their first rig? Why are you pissed anyway? Could not get a free rig? Here is some funny stuff for ya.... http://www.tonysuits.com/ If you look at the top left pic in the frame right above the (Company button), and the pic http://www.tonysuits.com/fabric.php4 Thats me in the Red/White/Blue MICHIGAN suit...On a Tony suit website...Man that kills me. Also look at last mths parachutist....I don't know what page, but it is a picture of Dericks 8 way team...Its labled "Bring in the Riggers" or something like that...Derick Thomas, owner of Sunpath and "his team"...notice the one guy with the Vector? Yeah, Bill and Mike are getting something out of that. Man thats funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, I learned that when my buddy Mike went in...When I was told I asked "Didn't he have a CYPRES? Did it Fail?" ...then we actually read the manual. Not a Zillion times, but thanks

This is why I always liked the PRO rating before you can downsize.... If you can land 10 times out of 10 standing in a 30 foot circle under the canopy you now have...Then I think you know how to fly that canopy, and you might be ok to downsize. If you can't then you don't know how to fly that canopy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hell, I pull my main high....If I break from a 4way at 4 grand, I pull by 3. I don't mind going low, but I have learned that time is good, and altitude equals time. So I track till I am clear, and deploy as soon as it is safe. I also cutaway as soon as I can once I say "Shit, its not gonna work!" It has been as high as 2 grand, and as low as 800 feet. But for an emergency exit...Around 1,000 feet I'll pull my reserve...This is based on the fact I have an AAD, and if I go on my main the CYPRES most likley will fire anyway. From around 1200 it might not. It also depends on WHERE I am...If I am over the DZ I am more likley to use my main...If I don't know where I amI go to the reserve since I can sink it better and land it in more areas....It would suck to deploy my main and then find myself at 700 feet with no place to land a canopy that needs a runway. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, mine is 1,000-1,200...Depending if I feal lucky My cut away hard deck is the same. 1,000 to 1,200. Basicly if its near the 1 thousand foot mark, its time to stop the skydive. I don't bother looking at the altimeter that long if its actually ON it..close is close enough for me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Would you feell better if I said TRY to get the fuck out? I hvae known people to manage to get out...but trying is better than just siting there and dying anyday "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't need much seperation if you are opening right out the door. I did some 4 way CRW jumps years ago,a nd trust me if you bail and pull...you will be much further away than you think from the other folks. But like Jerm said, take your cue from the pilot. If he is like "Hey guys...Im gonna bring her around and let you guys out" You could take a second or two...If he is asking the AFF instructors for tips on a good exit that he can do...Well I'd go faster. If the plane is spinning...Well just get the fuck out. If you are flying at say 10 grand, and one of the engines blow on the plane...And the pilot tells you to get out...DON'T put floaters out and try to launch a chunk....Don't ask HOW I know this, but trust me it kinda pisses the pilot off. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im more interested in the 8way team. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like Hook said its a great idea.... However, most skydivers I know all think they are "special" And think they are above the norm. Most skydivers don't need booties, full face carbon fire hemets, or a Xbraced canopy...they WANT them. As as long as they can just write a check or run up a credit card...they are gonna buy them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You keep running your mouth...You are gonna be one STRONG muther fuker. Stop while you are behind. Hey, on the first day tell them you are there for "The Golden Knight Boogie!" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree...Your pilot training will make it so: a. you might not put yourself into that situation anyway. b. you will react calmer than someone that really does not understand how a canopy flies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not true several folks told him he would be fine....Some of those did not know that it was actually a 135, not a 149 like it was labled as. Yep, cause when he asked if we thought he would be ok, I could have said "Nope, and you can't jump it here anyway. USPA wingload BSR states that Blah Blah" So it would not have mattered...He would not have been allowed to jump it. As it was he took peoples opinions, and some of those people who gave opinions didn't know enought to be giving advice. Maybe, and it has been talked about...I don't agree with that stand..since it really has nothing to do with SKYDIVING saftey...only the problems that it can bring AFTER an accident. Thats for lawyers and DZO's to talk about..Id rather break the chain BEFORE the guy needs heatlh insurance. This program would help do that. Again, not true. Several told him he would be fine....Some of those didn't know about the sizing issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They should, but most don't. Or don't teach it as well. Take an AFF student that dies AFF in 7 levels. Then they can jump solo till they have an "A". They were watched landing 7-8 times? A SL student gets watched 15-20 times. Which is going to get better canopy instruction...The guy that was coached on 7 or 15 landings? I have seen VERY few AFF programs teach spotting or packing. And here is where you don't know the S/L program. After the 10 second delay the instructor starts jumping with the student. Same at aboth places...I would rather a guy know WHY he gets out where he does, than just listen to the organizer. Once of freefall S/L students and AFF students use THE SAME gear... See what I mean by you don't know the Static line program? Uh, yeah they do. and Where does that say FREEFALL jumps? For the record I was in the 82nd for 3 years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but if they were lined up on the runnway, which would win?...I still think mike has a good chance. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hanz...He is more qualified to speak about this than me, and MUCH more qualified to speak than you. It is this exact attitude that made him quit, and makes me think about it..... You have what 200-300 jumps? You have seen me with blood on my hands more than once...And the last time I think it was a guy with 100 jumps and a1.5 WL right? Now that guy has been out of the sport over a year, and has $107,000 in medical bills. This kind of regulation WOULD have prevented that. It really is that simple. If you trust me, believe me when I say this would help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bingo...But with SL the students and instructors speed more time together...Before AFF became reall popular the ISP was not needed...Becasue we spent time with our students....It was not just a jump and quick debrief. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

From my observations the "Spike" is around 300 jumps with a 1.5 wingload. I would LOVE to see canopy control sign offs....But I would like to see them as waivers to a regulation....That way if you don't want to push it you can procede "normally" and if you have a gift, or the training you can push it a little. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is all I have ever wanted..Regulate them UNLESS they can prove they can handle it.... If they can prove it...Let the go as fast as they safley can. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Alot of folks don't make it the first time...BTW I had 1500 jumps, and that was more than all but one of the Cadre. But they had a point..I had been in the Army 9 mths to include Basic...And when I got to my unit, some jumers had arranged me a cush job, not really in my MOS....So I knew jack shit about the Army. The GK's didn't like that, and I can't blame them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not every place has me or someone like me. Not every place is Zhills. There are issues at other DZ's.... A story I was told long ago...An old man stops to build a bridge...It takes many years. A young man walks up to the old guy as he puts the last nail in the bridge....The young man asks "Dude, how long have you been building this bridge?" The old man tells him many years. The young guy asks why did he do it? Why did he waste part of his life to use a bridge he didn't need. The old man says "I didn't build it for me, I built it for you." Just because I was left to try and survive the learning process, does not mean I should make, or even let you do it on your own. I don't propose canopy regulations cause they will help me.....I do it to help those that don't know better. I want others to have it safer and easier than I did...But safer comes first. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334