Ron

YES... We have two folks Saftey boy and Danger girl sitting at the DZ....They both have freyed closing loops. Danger girl says "It will be fine its not that bad." Saftey boy replaces it knowing it COULD lead to a horseshoe. They are walking to the plane. Its windy. Saftey boy says "Its windy...maybe to windy for me to jump even though its under the BSR limits...I'm not going to jump today" Danger girl gets on the plane. Both are under canopy. Its a bad spot. Saftey boy does not think he can make it back so he bails and lands off safely...Danger girl pushes it and becomes a panic turn injury or fatality. You getting it yet? I could go on. Saftey is in the mind set. Saftey is not buying a CYPRES...It is a way of thinking. No, to sit there and think skydiving is safe is naive. To sit there in the face of all these folks with thousands of jumps telling you something is not safe, and you not listening is foolish. If I get ONE person to make the safer choice by making them realize that it is a dangerous sport...Then I have done my job. I don't have to convince you...I doubt I could anyway....I just hope I don't read about you. Well admiting you may not be right is a big step. I hope to see you in a few hundered more jumps. For the record...I thought it was safe at one time. Till a buddy of mine with several hundered more jumps than me said something along the lines of my sig line.....Winsor has saved my ass more than once. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its also pretty damn accurate. rigging65 (Ryan) said it really well: We have seen enough to KNOW its not safe. We have seen people do everthing right and still end up in a meat waggon. We have seen many more make small mistakes and die or be really screwed up. I have a friend. He was a VERY good freeflier. He was also a land straight in kinda guy. He was on a normal straight in approach, and got caught in some bad winds. Now he needs someone to take care of him...One of the greatist guys you could know....Did NOTHING wrong. Now he is mentaly handicaped. So we have seen enough over and over to know that its not safe. We have accepted the fact that it is not safe, and do what we can to minimize the risk....But we still jump anyway knowing we could die for no reason. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

hey stud she didn't explain when I wrote the question... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because it is dangerous...And if you approach it that way you will live longer. Neglect the danger, and you can't manage it. Show me where I said that. You can feel like a idiot if you want, thats your choice. To keep them (you) from getting killed in this "safe" sport. And dictionary's, and experienced jumpers disagree with your definiton. Take a look at those that have said its safe....they are newbies..The experienced folks don't argue its safe, only you do. Never said stupid....I have said inexperienced, and that I think that you are wrong if you think skydiving is safe. Walk up to a whuffo and ask then if skydiving is safe.....They will tell you that its not, and that you are an idiot if you jump from planes. Suddenly you get a few jumps and learn a little bit about the sport and you think its "safe".... After a while you learn more and realise that it is not safe, but that you can manage the risks and that you are willing to accept them. That is different than safe. To keep you "safe" Because its not. And for you to think that you are lying to yourself. And when you tell others that it is safe you are misleading them. Why do you have to keep saying it is "safe"? Why don't you listen to people with more experience than you? Not just me but all the others here? Do you know more than all of us? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We will have these as long as we have newbies trying to convince themselves that they are safe. Amen "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would say mine is "Requires the use of skill to avoid injury or death" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Look at the fatalities from last year. http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2003&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2003&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D 24 deaths (good year, thanks for not getting killed everyone!) 5 had more than 1,000 jumps. 1 had 9,000 jumps 12 had more than 300 11 had less than 300 5 had less than 100 11 had less than 300, 12 had more than 300, 1 I don't know about. Seems pretty equally spread at around 300 jumps...I personally don't see 300 jumps as that experienced. As for pushing the limit. 4 hook turns. 3 by folks with more than 500 jumps,and one with around 44. 1 guy that buzzed a bridge with a wingsuit...A poorly planned stunt gone bad. The rest were malfunctions, and low turns due to panic. So you are wrong....5 deaths from "pushing the limit". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can do as you please. I don't see it as safe. I don't think it is a death wish either. I really hate it when folks compare driving, an activity that most people need and an activity that Billions of folks do. To Skydiving, a recreational sport that only a few do ever and fewer do as a hobby. And comparing it to random freak accidents like the chances of me dying while eating a ham sandwich....Yes it has happened, but almost EVERYONE that is alive eats sandwhiches. Or about the roller coaster deaths. You will die everytime you jump out of an airplane unless you and your gear work correctly. The same cannot be said for roller coasters..Plus, many more rides are given on roller coasters every year than skydives made. The logic behind each of these arguments is flawed. Ever notice that the folks that have been in the sport for a few years don't call skydiving "safe"? Its only the newer jumpers? Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do? Simple, we don't need to lie to ourselves to feel safe. The day I really realized that I could die skydiving even if I did everything right was quite a day for me...Quite scarry, and quite liberating at the same time. Some people quit when they realize that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

False...Congress USED to have its own program...Now they pay SS www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/pensions.asp "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I am still voting for him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not in the biblical sense....But I do know what I like! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Serious reply.... Generally I don't take anyone seroiusly till they have 500 jumps. Most people never make it there. I expect people with less than 100 jumps to never show up again. Take a look at the number of AFF grads that still jump. Here at Zhills we have a bunch of pictures of AFF grads that I have never seen since the picture. 5 years in the sport...I think you have seen enough. And when you stop saying things like skydiving is safe. Have you noticed that all the experienced folks don't think that way? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why its just a fatality? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not safe. You can limit the risks, but you can do everything right and still die. 1/1,000 folks in the USPA in the US will die this year. Odds are you will know one of them. There is nothing safe about the sport, only some really neat ways to reduce the chance of a fatality. God I wish folks would quit acting like this is safe. It can be done safley...but that does not make it safe. And I don't want to hear Bullshit about meteors falling on my head.... There are Billions of folks that could get hit by a meteor just in the US...The USPA says there are only 35000 active jumpers...yet 30 still die a year. When was the last time you heard of a meteor hitting someone? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never said it was better (Even though it IS)..I said it was better for ME.

Im only 31..I only ACT old. Its not my fault that big ways scare the shit out of me....They are all out to kill you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh geeze...Well it was then. Now I consider anything that takes more than one plane as big. Yep, thats why they are so popular. I can train two weekends a mth, and the cost of a big way and those two weekends is close to the same....So I can do 10 big ways, or 30 4ways for about the same cost. FOR ME the 4way is better. I have told folks that when I get old I plan on doing more big ways Cool, scary...same thing. It is neat when it works, and exciting when it does not work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe you all have come around to my way of thinking? It COULD be that I am frankly getting burned out on skydiving. 10 years of Politics, big egos, watching people die/get hurt, 100 jumps wonders not listening...I have almost given up on trying to keep people safe. And the simple fact is after 3,000 jumps it does not hold the same excitment it used to. I tried to come on here and be the "Voice of Reason". I tried to be the one person that tries to get people to think about the choices they make. And to think about the cost of their actions. It's cool to act devil may care, to look the part of a Daredevil.....Most think its uncool to act and look safe. More people today think more about the colors of their gear than the saftey and function of it. And most would rather buy cool toys to make up for lack of training and drilling. But they still think they are safe since they bought the cool toys. Being the "Saftey Nazi" means not just letting people do stupid things cause they want to. And that also means getting people pissed at me since I call them on it. Maybe I have given up on it.....Maybe not, Im not sure yet. But since Im bored at work I am on these addictive forums. So I have quit being so much a Saftey Nazi, and now I have started to gain acceptance....Funny huh? Its easy to be popular when you don't challenge people to think. And the simple fact is most people who know me in real life know Im not like this all the time. I still preach saftey, but I also have a life. On the forums I just preached saftey, since there was a lack of it, and plenty of talkback without me. But it could just be I'm getting laid more...Your call. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Blow jobs do wonders. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would change a lot. I would go visit my friend Mike at Emerald coast the weekend we had planned...That way he would not have been at the other DZ when the engine quit...And he would be alive today. I would have gone to school at 21 instead of 31. There are a few things I said I would take back.... But since you can't go back I'll quit thinking about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See she has done two tandems....So she can understand it...without those tandems I doubt she would. I have taken folks on tandems that "know" about skydiving from their buddies that jump. Eevryone of them says they really didn't get it before the jump when I asked. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think everyone should try to do one. There is a coolness to being in the air with 100 other people. When it builds and everyone knows it..There is a very cool feel to it almost like an electric charge......Then break off comes and all hell breaks loose. I don't do them simply for the fact that they are expensive, take time off of work, and are more dangerous than 4way. I can do a good 4way training camp for a big way attempt. But then again I have done them. Javelin 110. I was 24 and had 600 jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Jerk Yeah, but how many of those did you get to do more than just look at a formation? Wanna do some 4 way this Saturday? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was not referring to you Doc. We all know you would just physics it all out and make the LO feel stupid and he would have to let you on. And I once got cut from the Javelin 110 way since we needed to bring our gear to the debrief. The packer didn't have it packed yet, so I didn't bring it. The LO had buddy lurking so the LO cut me and put him on. However since Derrick invited me, he put me back and I got a better slot anyway. Perfect example of the politics....The LO didn't care that my gear was not packed. He was just looking to cut someone to let a buddy on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Kelly and Bill answered better than I could. However, I like Kelly's better....Sex vs. reason anyday. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334