rhys

Nothing, unless I intend on doing tandems in the USA again. There is no need for a manufacturers rating here or anywhere other than the USA or anywhere that has cloned their 'rules' off the USPA. We have our own licencing and ratings system. NZ is fucked up right now with 3 different sets of rules/licensing organisations but that is being ironed out over the next couple of years. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

They will never tell you it is OK to skip handle checks, jump camera with a tandem with less than 500 jumps, do backflips, however they will also not refuse to sell equipment to companies they know ( good old youtube) do these very things, because that comapany may order 20 harnesses and containers every 2 years while failing to purchase the reserves and mains that supposedly go with them. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

...In the country of manufacture, or if the operations regulations of the said country specifies so, Those same manufacturers work hand over feet to get the lucarative contracts to supply containers to the companies that do the 20,000 plus tandems a year. The manufacturers also know those comapanies use precision reserves, Icarus or hop main canopies, do backflips, handicam... You are talking about America again. We are not subject to the same rules you are... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Unfortunately I have been instructed by DSE and Bilvon not to debate the differences between the rules pertaining to camera jumpin so I am not at liberty to answer that question. I think you should know the answer by reading here though. What I can say, is that I have personally seen hundreds of people jump with a camera at around 100 jumps with no negative consquence. I simply wish for the information here to be relevant to everybody. Not just the 'mericans. Certainly is, I think that is quite clear too now, isn't it? I recon you would not have the gumption to tell people in Australia or NZ that they should not be jumping cameras when they ar eallowed, they will ridicule you as I have been ridiculed here. Put yourself on the other side of the fence and the story is completely different. I don't beleive you would have the guts to confront this situation when you were actually there, you would want to be accepted, and telling people they should not be doing things they are allowed to do would be the worst way. That is the truth.

There are thousands of jumpers that live in those other countres that may read here, this website is not for Amercia. America is not the world. This is an international website and the information should be relevant to everyone. Exactly, and that is the problem here, pure arrogance. Try reading the title of the thread. Now you are lying as well... Read you comment above and tell me how that is not chiming in with stupid irrelevant comments. Or the thousands of jumpers in countries other than the USA. that may have other rules. You know, those ones that ownners of this website would like to see participating here and increasing the volume of jumpers and the variation seen in the forums. Gee I wonder what attitude may inhibit other people from posting such questions, and asking for such answers. Nobody ever gets ridiculed on this website, the post numbers and number of posters are growing rapidly and the website is increasingly more attractive to international advertisers because the viewpoints are so very balanced and fair on here. Come back down to earth man. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Which rules...? You'll have to be more concise. Manufacturer recommendations are not rules, unless the operational regulations you are subject to specify so. That is all I can imagine you are talking about. Would you care to clarify, or would you rather remain ambiguous? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Under the USPA maybe, In the other countries such as the ones I have pointed out earlier in this thread, are rules. I posted those rules. Did you read them? They are from the operational regulations, which are rules. There, fixed ot for ya These are the rules for APF jumpers for jumping a wingsuit, they are not ambiguous reccomendations, they are indeed rules. Interesting how it is different in different places isn't it. It is important that jumpers from different locations are aware of the rules or recommendations that pertain to them. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Because that is what I am used to... My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules. Because that is what I am used to... My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules. Because that is what I am used to... My opinion may be different to yours, and we are allowed to disagree, but the rules are the rules. Do you see a pattern froming here? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Bollocks. You are an expert in the high tech aspect of photography, almost so much that it seems you are out of touch with the avererage joe. While some will need the information on the high tech aspect, some are just wanting to share images and tips and sometimes they even want to know what the differetnt rules in different countries are. The rules will affect those with the 100-300 jumps range which I can imagine is a majority of the 'active' skydiving community. Only a handful of skydivers mostly 'trustafarians', the semi wealthy and commercial skydivers usually get to numbers beyond 1000 jumps in a handful of years most may linger around 150 jumps for some time indeed. These small format camers have only really come into fruition and these wuill increasingly be a part of our skydiving lives. These forums are for everybody, not just a select few. What is useless to you (some people) may be interesting information to others. There is always a search function to retrieve any information here, that is unless that information has been removed. Serriously Douglas. You are shifting your opinion slowly to make yourself look better and skewing the history here. The inabilty from the USPA advocates to understand the differences in regulation or recommendations in different countries is the problem with this conversation. This thread started as the very information base you say you will complile, if anybody other than myself brings it forward in a P/M rather than a post. That comes accross as an assumption that only you have the authority to compile such a database of information. Do we need permission to start a thread on a subject? Show me another thread that addresses this information specifically? What is wrong with this thread that you need to make (yet another) one yourself? You seriously seem to have missed the point ( or are avoiding it), which is probably why you have drifted so far away from it. I'll point it out to you again simply just to clarify; There are different rules in different countries, that hypothetical guy you just spoke of with 10 jumps would likely be breaking the rules in 'every' country in the world (that has such rules). That hypotheical and deliberately misleading situation shows clearly that you misunderstand the point of this thread, or want to skew the point. This thread was intended for those that do not necessarily jump in the USA or will not be, if they are travelling abroad and will not be subject to USPA rules. This position may give them the ability to jump a camera at 70 or 130 jumps due to the current rules and regulations in place in the country they may plan to jump in. For instance it is OK to jump with a camera in Australia with DZSO approval for any jumper from any country that may have 100 jumps or more. They may be lead astray by your information and that is why I started this thread. Currently the information in the camera and photgraphy forum only allows for the USPA jumpers and anything lesser than the USPA rules it seems, is deemed irresponsable by meany of the posters here. These individuals including yourself seem to be confusing the difference between people using different rules and people breaking the rules. BIG DIFFERENCE. After all this, it seems unlikey that many of you are willing to accept that difference as reasonable. That is the main cause of the; The information that was origonally intended has been buried among bigotry. It is a shame these discussions end up this way. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

They have 50 staff or so... some with mortgages... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

A royal idiot. A wealthy, selfish, couldn't give a fuck about the safety of his customers or staff, idiot. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Lol, gotcha. Loud and clear "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

There you go again, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of context. There is a distinct difference between pointing out that not all rules are the same for everybody and saying one is better than the other. This whole debate would be resolved if it were simply acknowledged that each place has its own guidelines. And those should be sought by individuals that are in need if that information. This thread was began to fill that void. But once again, I am told by bigots over and over that it is unsafe to do anything less than the USPA standard. Which is incorrect. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I am not struggling, and most people do not, but 'others' can't quite grasp things they are not used to, these small few create a big problem. I have been trained in (tandem) 3 different countries (NZ, AUS, and USA) I have jumped in many others, each time the rules were subtly different but rather easy to acknowledge. Some I agree with and others no, but each place is different with different needs. ? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Be careful bro, as much as I can see your point, you open yourself to ridicule with a comment like that. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Serously your attempt to insult me is in vein, there will be plenty of people reading this thread that are in australia, NZ, canada, and south africa (among other countries) wondering what all the fuss is about. There will be moderators reading these posts and I SURE HOPE THEY USE THIER DILLIGENCE, by removing those comments of yours. and warnng you about it. Us and them huh, Nice. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Since you are in Canada, and seem to have a grasp on canadian rules. Can you please explain to us why you beleive the reccomendation for jumping camera has been lowered in recent years from C Cop to B Cop? I would appreciate yout input. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Now we are delving into personal opinions, and disregarding the history of what is done in countries other than your own. It is clear that you, and a bunch of other die hard; 'The USPA way is the Best way' advocates, disagree with the administration of skydiving in a number of countries including your neighbours, Canada. Canada has recently lowered the number from 100 to 50. make you blood boil? There is a reason they did that, my guess is to advance the progression on the jumpers there. But I am not going to argue with you about it, you are entitled to beleve what you wish. Whatever you beleive or say, does not change the fact that the rules are different in other countries and if someone is following the rules of the country and dropzone they belong to, then they are doing no wrong. It amuses me how difficult it is for so many to comprehend this. If a US tandem master with 780 jumps shows up at a DZ in NZ or south africa, they will be told to go and get (at least) another 220 jumps before considering transfering thier rating. Much as a jumper with 150 jumps from NZ with a camera set up thay have jumped a bunch of times will (likely) be asked to make another 50 jumps before using it at many DZ's in the USA. What is so fucking hard to understand about that? And what does it have to do with me? You can turn right at a red light in traffic in the USA and in NZ it is against the law to turn on a red light, ever. This world is interesting because we have our differences. With a stetment like that, it appears that there is a serious lack of supervision going on in your realm, that scenario is not likely to happen here. you need the approval of the DZSO to advance your progression. errrrr, O.K. Pretty much most jumpers I know in NZ and Aussie have had a similar progression, from jump 1 to jumping camera, but over varying periods of time. I am not an exception in this example I am the norm, in this part of the world. Just ask any Australian skydiver or kiwi skydiver you may meet. The fact that I went on to do 1000's of jumps in a handful of years is not uncommon either. Maybe it is uncommon where you are from, and that is probably why you are having difficulty dealing with this. Seriously, what a bunch of bullshit. I you re insulting thousands of people because you want to jump on a high horse. You will find the both Kiwis and Australians are humble and straight forward people. This has nothing to do with Ego or the inability to understand the needs of the less experienced jumpers. Your attitude towards the subject seems very one sided. You guys have a very different culture to us, and the differences are shining through in your comments right now, you seem to be unaware of how insulting to so many people the coments you just made were, and how superior in opinion you make yourself out to be. What ever happened to a difference in opinion? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Thanks sparky, I truly do appreciate the kind words, I have put alot of energy into my skydiving career. Not only commercial sydiving but I have competed for my country 4 times in that time too. I have to mention however that this rate of progression is not uncommon around here. I actually have less jumps than a few that were in my year of the skydiving diploma course because I travelled and ended up at dz's where I only did 500 jumps in a year rather than 11, 12 or 1300. Some guys that stayed put have many more than me, and a frind of mine that started only a year earlier than me now has over well 10000. I know quite a few that have achieved 1600 in a year. Things are definately different now from when I was learnng only 8 years ago, so I can only begin to imagine, from watching old vhs tapes , what it was like 30 years ago when tandem factories did not exist. I come from the world of the tandem factory, I was bred to be a commercial skydiver from before my first jump, my government paid for half of it because it benifits them financally having Kiwis doing the jumps in New Zealand, rather than foreigners coming and leaving paying minimal tax. Just think 100,000 tandems a year give or take in our country alone, and only a handful of kiwi skydivers... Only because of my travels can I relate to the world of sport skydiving only DZ's with minimal tandems and plane loads of sporties. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I doubt there is an institution that allows that under thier regulations. 100 jumps is where i was allowed by my regulations to jump with a camera helmet, the camera did not go in untill jump 102. The canadian regulations allow 50 jumps, south africa 75, so the rules I was subject to are not by any means the minimum available. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

False that is open to interpretation, The only reason it became a debate is that people insist that anything less than 200 jumps is not safe. That is not the case. False So you are saying you expect a representative from those institutions to come forward? Then that thread would be subject to debate from 'anyone' that disagree with any of the said regulations. You will find that it would not be me, I would welcome such a thread, my point the whole time was to include the recommendations of everybody, not just the USPA and that is why I started this thread. I intended this thread to be a simple and informative one, but violent opposition to anything less than the USPA minimum resulted in once again, a debate on the subject. I do not beleive I am superior, where have I ever said that? That is a false accusation. I know that thousands of other people from various countries have safely avanced through a progression similar to mine. Canada has recently dropped the minimum from 100 freefalls to 50. Why would they do that do you think? South africa has 75 jumps, people from those places deserve to utilise the regulations that are applicable to them, without being ridiculed by those that disagree with it. I simply pointed out that the USPA recommendation that you posted as a sticky is only relevant to USPA jumpers and that this is an international website. Others disagree with the rules of other countries, and that is where the debate came from. I like the model I worked with, and my career would have been set back by at least a year or 2 if I was subject to the recommendations of the USPA. I am allowed to think that, and i am allowed to say that. Others can disagree, and once again that is where we might end up with a debate. If you do not think there should be a debate on the subject, it is kind of hypocritical to continue debating it yourself. Or were you attempting to get the last word in? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

http://www.dubai500.com/ "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Yes that was clarified in an earlier post. The ruling has changed in Canada from C COP to B COP which is an absolute minimum of 50 jumps before jumping a camera, along with the other pre requisites. I tried to copy and paste it in here but the PDF it was on would not allow me to do so. There is a link to the CSPA regulations earlier in the thread however. Thanks for pointing it out though. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

What would be the reason for stopping the thread? I am not getting around a ban, I was told that the content of this thread has no place in the photography forum. And I am not done here, I am done arguing over which country has the best rules and which are more appropriate. Anyone that thinks they know it all, is inherently mistaken, and we can all learn something from each other. This is a serious storm in a teacup. you lot need to cool off a little. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So the sticky post is relevant to the forum but the rules that many (from countries other than your own) will be interested to know are not... I started this thread to inform those that were ill informed by your post. Don't turn it into a debate about who is better than who, by feeding the trolls. Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans... deserve the correct information as well. Simple. Which is not likely to happen, you have said that already and that is why this thread was started. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix