rhys

If not, then I needn't bother. The information is there. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This is 'a' reason they will never be completely eliminated from the liability. But it is possible for them to have complete control over how that communication is conducted. That documentation from the manufactueres to the USPA (or similar) would be the only connection in that case, The USPA (or similar) would have determined that each instructor has met those requirements before issuing the rating. Currently the manufacturers also issue that rating, as soon as they do that, they specify that they also agree requirments have been met by that specific individual and increase thier participation in the liabilty significantly. They then cross the boarder from the safety of their paperwork into the hands of the publics actions. I understand your point, and agree with it. That hypothetical situation is much better than the current situation. There would still be liability, there always will be some how. Nothing is that cut and dried. Many things intend to be and are promoted as such however... The less liabity for the manufacturers, the less costs passed on to the consumers/us. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

That is your interpretaion, My point is that the manufacturers' liabilty would be significantly reduced, not eliminated altogether. Law, unfortunately, is not that clear cut and common sence does not necessarily prevail. Now you are confusing me, can you write that more consise and less ambiguous. I can not relate or understand exactly what you are saying there. Instead of hinting, would you care to share that point that you are having difficulty grasping, we are all here to learn right?? Quite simply. If they play no role in licensing the instructor, then their liability for the conduct of the instructors' conduct is significantly reduced. The manufacturers liablity would then be calculated by the performance of their product. The training and therefore conduct of the instructors, would then be determined by the legislation in place for the training them (which would exclude the manufacturers). There should be a rating from only one entity and that entity should be of the likes of the USPA, not the manufacturers. Much like it is in most other places. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This very comment is an example of how badly you DON'T GET IT. Understanding and accepting are quite different. You are more focused on not being wrong than you are on seeking the balance. I have not said rules in your country are dangerous, but there are plenty that have openly opposed the rules in my country, and deemed them unsafe. I just accept that there are different rules in different places, no place will ever be perfect, and we must accept and acknowledge that the rules in each place must be respected. But I suppose you are on the bandwagon and you and your mates will continue the plight to dismiss that viewpoint, so I will continue (as long as I can be bothered) to defend it and this will continue your pointless discussion. At some stage it will become clear to you that your efforts are in vien as I do not circumb to peer pressure. I prefer to discuss the point and come to an agreement using honesty. I could care less if you or any other DZ.commer may disagree with me or attempt to silence me, as long as I have my integrety, I have everything I need. We don't have to all agree on everything, if we did we wouldn't have anything to talk about... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Again, you talk shit. He was talking about the difference between our countries and I was explaing the resoning that he was likey unaware of, it is called discussion. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Quite the contrary, we do plenty wrong, but our egos arent so big that we are reluctant to admit it. Another war anyone? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

If law was that simple, lawyers would not make so much money. Can you skip to the point? Explain how the tandem manufacturers playing a part in the licensing and administration of instructors does not place more responsability on them in such a case. That is the point you should be trying to get your head around. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I have seen some dipshits doing some stupid things too, but I prefer those dipshits did not effect my ability to do any such activity. Something called freedom. Those NZ students for the most part go on to do 170 jumps in their first 5 months, with coaching, seminars, assignments and tests this is also a factor to consider. I would bet a very small proportion of the students in the USA would have this type of progression as it takes almost full time commitment to do so. The rules should accomodate everybody, not the lowest common denominator. Yes some will perform over 100 jumps in the following months and some will perform a dozen jumps in the following decade. The slow people should not hinder those with aptitude and enthusiasm. Inversly the slower people should not necessarily have the same access to the progression as those with more aptitude and enthusiasm. This is a simple thing called supervision. Once again the rules should be made to accomodate everybody, not the lowest common denominator. You will find that sport skydiving is actually increasing in NZ due to the diploma courses, the decline reached its 'bilge' a few years ago, now we have as many new jumpers training each year as there were jumpers in total only a few years ago. I will staff my DZ entirely with New Zealanders in the future, this was not possible only a handful of years ago. Commercial skydivers also create sport skydivers, I signed up for the diploma for a career, but inadvertantly fell in love with the sport and have represented my country in international competitions 4 times since, I am not the only one. We don't have the population you have, but relatively speaking our insustry and sport would be similar or even bigger than your countries, our 4 million population compared to your 250million+? It is all relative. More correctly, if this progression was not possible, it would not be possible to offer the diploma course at all, as such tertiary institutions (in NZ) must be able to train a student to an employable status in order to attain accreditation and funding. If this diploma was not created, the New Zealand government and therefore the New Zealand people will lose out considerably as the foreign instructors would be hired to process the 400 million dolloars or so per year the tandem skydoving industry creates in NZ and would not have to pay the same tax as the New Zelanders have to pay. As they will not spend 6 months or more in the country per year, foreigners pay very minimal tax. In the long run the country loses without the diploma and the initial subsidy of $7500 is made up later in one financial year in tax payments. I applaude the founders of the diploma course as much as I disagree with some of their conduct, they are filling a void that needs filling, and gave me the opportunity to become what I have. The rules were in place well before the diploma course was created, the rules were not manipulated to accomodate the diploma course, the diploma course would have been manipulated to accomodate the regulation that was already in place. We are fortunate that skydiving is a bonafide career here, the attitude towards that in America is quite different due to the difference in experiences there, hence this conversation Remember, each place is different, each country has different rules for different reasons and no one country is the same 'or' absolutely correct. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I'm saying the manufacturers are removed from repsponsability of the conduct of tandem masters if the said manufacturer plays no part in the licensing and authentication of instructors. Regardless of what country they come from. A mistake from the instructor could be the fault of the training, that puts the manufacturers at risk in the USA right now. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Not if you are wanting to participate and have not doen many bigways lately, or If you are organising it, or If you need to allocate the use of a number of C130's or similar for civilian use and need to make the necessary arrangments... It is only a couple of years away... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Tony hayes, bigggsy and Arnie (among others) at woolongong, some really sore tummies from some uncontrolable laughter... That 20 minute bus ride per load, was key... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

The JFX redline is using is not the same as a JFX you would buy. They (redline) have significant modifications made and it is for CRW. The JFX you would buy would be for high performance flight/swooping or a general canopy, but a 7 cell rather than a 9. I was told they are working on/testing a new canopy also, will be interesting. There has been plenty in the pipleine for a few years. Maybe we will see the JSX at long last. The market is ready... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This is because of the inability of those to acept the differences in different places and simply (mistakingly) assume that their system is the best, and no alternative could ever be more acceptable. There has been plenty to learn. Remember, much more people read here than that post here, and the ridicule from many of the post whores, is purposly placed by the bigots to avoid the alternative opinions coming out and discrediting their own. This is common throughout society. Aside from that, there is plenty to learn here and these forums are not just for you and me, they are for everybody and that will always ensure a difference of opinion. How people ingest and respond to those differences, is entirely up to themselves. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

It is also funny (peculiar) how an exteme example of breaking the rules can be continulally used to promote the standpoint that tries to render the rules of a similar yet different licensing body in another country, simply becuase they are different and more relaxed than their own. This show either the unwilloingness or inability to recognise that there is different rules and different results in different places. It is also peculiar how those that are exposed to a lower level of skill ( a higher raitio of inexperienced jumpers) will likely have a slower progression and learning curve to those that are exposed to a higher level of skill (less experienced and much more experienced jumpers). If you hung out in a place that allowed jumpers with 10 jumps to use a camera, and give up before 200 jumps because of too many close calls. There is something very dodgy about the place that you jumped, the camers have nothing to do with it... Nice story though. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

It has been said before by others and is reasonably straight forward. As long as the manufacturers play a role in the licensing and issuing if tandem ratings then they are exposed to lawsuits from the victims of neglegence from US tandem masters. If they handed the regulations and licensing over to the USPA completely (something the USPA seem reluctant to take on [cop out, pussies]), then the manufacturers would only be responsable for the performance of the system itself, not the nitwit that decides he is too lazy to do the harness up properly. There are others much more clued up on this than me, and I have seen this discussed before. That manufacturers rating needs to go... and the USPA need to become the full blown licensing body that they make themselves out to be. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Is that because you wish your laws to be imposed on everyone? For fucks sake, we have our own laws and the further away from the fucked up laws of the US we can stay, the better. Mind your own business. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You could ask the same about a roller coaster or any paid adventure activity. It simply comes down to the legislation surrounding the activity. If the USPA would step up to the plate and make some rules, that may end this debarcle. Instead they are half assed about it and leave the weight on the manufacturers shoulders. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

It's 12:15 am Christmas day here right now... Seasons Greetings all. Lets hope for a more peaceful decade to come! Kia Kaha , Aroha nui

There is a nice DZ there with a Porter and the terrific scenery. I highly recommend going there if you ever get a chance... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You are correct in your assumtion, I do not think the 10 year old would be responasible enough, more important accountable enough to undergo AFF training or static line training. Teaching emergency procedures etc etc, is much more complex than a tanedm jump, I was in control of the situation the whole time regardless of what he did with that tandem. With solo training it is a completely different story. I guess this comes back to the debate about whether tandem training is about teaching someone to skydive or giving someone an experience/thrill. I go for the latter as I KNOW many people that wish to tandem skydive, have no desire to jump solo, and without tandem, may not ever jump at all. Tandem is an introduction to the sport, and also a teaching tool, it can be used for either or both. It is up to each individual to decide what aspect interests them the most. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

What a fucked up comparison. But I guess you have a fucked up scenario where that actually happens there. Going skydiving at thirteen and marrying a thirteen years old are completely different. Skydiving is more akin to riding a motobike, go karting, paintball. Marrying at that ageis somthing quite different. It is most certainly against the law here. You also have a federal law against marrying at 13 do you not? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

There we go, we can agree on something. With different context is always possible to find common ground. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I know this discussion pertains to the taking of minors in the USA, due to the manufacturers ratings. But if a child wishes to skydive and conciously knows what they are doing, and the parents agree, by rights that child should be allowed if it is not against thier will. But with laws in place preventing this from being legal, then it is best to aid the manufacturers and avoid jumping minors in the USA. It is a shame, but it is the situation. Fortunately we are not so inhibited, I took a 10 year ofl Iranian boy just yesterday with his parents. He knew what he was up to, and did really well and enjoyed it. You can watch here; Soheil's jump. A few weeks ago we had a large indian group of families where half a dozen children jumped, almost all enjoyed themseleves except for one that told me she didn't want to jump, I asked her if she was sure, she said she really did not want to jump, (she was fine up until then but in the plane after her brother had left she confronted me). I landed with her in the plane and her parents understood completely and they all still had a great time, the girl was a little upset but she was never made to do domething she was not comfortable with. If you treat children like adults, you will find that many of them are more adult than many of those so called adults that I see posting on here. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So Bill, I showed yuo a few examples of this conduct AT YOUR DZ, and you refused to comment on it. so answer this question. Are you a S & TA at your DZ? What do you plan on doing about the people breaking these procedures at your DZ? I bet you will say nothing and will let is slide as long as you look like the good guy on the internet.... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

A fabrication and untrue in every sense of creative interpretation. I believe you recently used the word "delusional?" My bad, you told me not to do it in your forum so you didn't have to deal with it/accept it. So I guess I can debate to my hearts content as it is out of your forum, where the information the thread is supposed to contain, rightfully belongs.. Thanks for clarifying. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix