rhys

That was a riser failing and activating the reserve via an RSL. The deployment was fine, up until the riser failed. They were completely unstable, the parachute deployed normally, until the riser failed and the jumper did the correct thing and cut away the main. That video is an example of bad rigging, not the ability of a square to open well from an unstable body position. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Wow, my guess is that you will see this conversation come up more and more as each of these DZ's consider the use of hand cam. This move will increase their productivity and in the long run will allow the metamorphosis into a turbine DZ's. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So most American dz's use single tandem loads if they sell camera to them?? I think you are right though and the crossed wire here is an economics thing, not a New Zealand economics thing, but a global economics thing. It is an interesting observation also. A can of coke cost $2.5 here and the equivalent of $0.30 in Tanzania. It would be easy for the conversation to go astray from this point which we will try to avoid, but I cannot fathom how the same business as mine would operate in America as much as an American could not completely understand how it works here. Almost every aspect, (price, legislation, taxes, exchange rates, tourism...) you name it, it will be different. It was equivalent to about Twice the price for a jump in Norway as it is to here and they were only 10k jumps. We will be offering 18k jumps for the same price the Norwegians offer a 10-12k jump, and we will be offering 18k jumps for about twice the price as an 18k jump in America. In business, it all comes down to economics in the end. I wish to create a skydiving club here too so fun jumpers can have an avenue outside the tandem business, that gets a plane at cost to make it feasible for sporties to do decent jump numbers, regularly here in the future. Club skydiving needs a comeback in NZ, and I will help that happen. It all takes time, hard work and yes, passion. But back to the Convo... Handicams are bad MMMMMMMMMkay. So don't be bad... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

We'll I guess I have to rephrase my statement to say that in my country it is not possible. In America you have cheap Gas, an excess of airplanes, parts... where it may be possible there, I cannot imagine it is very profitable. Heck I could start up a dz doing single loads from a CASA and that is possible too. Here we would lose money doing that, we would also lose customers (couples and groups). It is definitely not possible here, I know someone who tried (director was a camera guy that didn't want to get a rating) ...failed. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I did make a glove for 2 cameras but found the added processes of the extra camera was a lot to deal with. And took the focus away from the skydive (safety issue). We don't sell the photos they are free, with a DVD. At first we did not offer photos but people insisted, we explained they would be frame grabs and only about 100kb or less, they were fine with that, they wanted photos for facebook. When we added the photos, we did not raise the price. even though it takes us longer to produce them. We choose the frame, we have a system that will randomly choose a frame, but I will not send out a product like that. For a couple of people we have even just put the camera on photo mode, they said they were not interested in the DVD AS SOON AS WE START OUTSIDE CAMERA.... No more hand cam photos. They are fine for facebook, etc but I don't really like them at all. They are there by customer demand. The extra camera thing is a bit too much for me. Some may find it OK to deal with But I would rather not have that at my DZ. We will have photographer with a minimum requirement of camera and lens (no stock lenses). "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I've logged three so far, from PM's. Two of which are mentioned in the Photo forum thread on small format camera. If we know of three, how many are not known about? Two were posted to Youtube; both are now gone. How many wingsuit incidents have there been? Deaths? How do those effect your attitude towards wingsuits? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I have a guy here for outside video, we begin outside video very shortly, though we have already been doing it here and there. yes all DVD's come with photos. We will update as soon as we are in the position to offer outside video to every customer, I.E. not in Cessna 185 doing single loads all day. This requires the use of a turbine aircraft worth over a million dollars to buy or over $1000 an hour to run. Now we are very very fortunate indeed to have the opportunity to use an aircraft of this description so soon, many others in a usual situation would have to garantee well over $20,000/20 hours of usage per month and if it rains for a month (we live in the rainforest), guess what, you pay $20,000 for lease, even though you have been paid nothing. We will have a turbine real soon and when we do... the moment we do, we will advertise outside video. We offer it now to some, but do not advertise it and most would rather not be split up into single loads. I agree that outside camera if done well will produce better images and a better perspective (of freefall and landing) that is why I am adament that we offer it. IT IS SIMPLY NOT VIABLE FOR A START UP DZ TO OFFER O.C. USING A C185/182, this is my point and a point that many here fail to acknowledge. In New Zealand we have a million and a half tourists per year and a couple of hundred (if you are lucky) sport skydivers (and most of those work at commercial tandem dropzones). Our DZ has been in business less than a year and hundreds of people have jumped with us as a tandem, and we have had 2 fun jumpers come in that time. Do the maths. If want turbines and big landing areas and cheap jump tickets and outside video slots for everybody.... then you need to start by using a cessna, doing handicam and building up your business with marginal profit and lots of hard work for a couple of years. Yes this dropzone is a business, we all need to make a living right? There is plenty of passion gone into making what we have so far, more than you can probably imagine. Yes they do, they are told exactly what they get, they are shown examples and we sell 70-90% camera since starting. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

so hand cam is a problem? Way to skew the info, everything in skydiving is to do with money from jump tickets, gear, airplanes, fuel.... you name it. This is not limited to hand cam, though you suggest this is one of the problems with hand cam. Money is one of the problems with everything. so your point is moot. I would like to understand how you suggest that money over safety is a concern, this to me seem the same as whether or not we skydive at all. that cost money too, we are willing to pay it, and (LOTS OF) people have died skydiving. How is you point about hand cams any different to the safety concerns of skydiving in general? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Why don't you have a tandem rating? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So is that an issue with hand cam, or an issue with the attitude of the said instructor? Is it an issue with his training, or the camera? This is akin to an incident of a camera jumper being above the tandem upon deployment. It is an example of the inability of the person in question, not the activity they are performing. Now what safety consideration are you talking about, you gave us one example of an incident of a person with bad training/attitude. There have been A _SHITLOAD_OF_HANDCAM_JUMPS. you can only give me one example of an incident that had no serious consequence. I would say the safety stats look fucking good! Maybe if some countries would have a guideline of 1000 jumps for tandems rather than 500, then we would see only jumpers with 1100+ jumps doing hand cam and much better attitudes. I have seen comments such as "hand cam is ruining the sport" , "it is a rip off", "greedy drop zone owners"... There are some bad attitudes from ungrateful jumpers that obviously do not have a clue about how much money, liability, hard work and passion it takes to run a DZ, often for little return. Hand cam makes it possible for New DZ's to open. It would not be economically viable to do so with a Cessna and do OV. But some want everything for nothing. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I reckon the husband would have chosen the one on the bottom row in the middle/right. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

NO! I believe the rule was 50 tandems when I did it in Australia. cannot remember exactly. Rules may have changed. I also believe it depends on the comptence and aptitude of the individual, but for the sake of the masses we have to put an number on it. There are some that have ratings that should never have got them at all. these individuals ruin the statistics. I would say 100 tandems to first try it, with the approval of th C.I. I try to hire TM's with at least 500 tandems. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

what are those rage 360's like? opening toggle pressure/configuration. performence flare? It is the forst I have heard of rage tandem "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Examples please? I have seen a tandem have a cypres fire because they were too busy geeking the camera guy. Seems this thead is a venting for disgruntled camera guys. Just ask the customers what they prefer. You will find the usual mixed results. There would have been over a million handicams done now with around 100,000 tandems per year in NZ and another 100,000 in aus. let alone the rest of the world. How many incidents have occured? I know somone that had their altimeter entangled in their lines on a tandem too, shall we dissaprove of altis now too? People die skydiving as it is dangerous, it is also unecessary to jump from a plane, maybe we should stop skydiving also? Really people you are all about 10 years too late and the statistics will tell you what is what and what is not. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

a few but not many. you will find it is more common in the club scene. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

A little off topic but~ anyone have an idea on what kinds of numbers the commercial tandems mills average in a month or year? It would be interesting to guesstimate bottom-line $ difference that would be reflected annually between the two video systems on that scale. The last DZ I worked for in OZ does about 15,000 tandems per year (handicam only). That is the busiest (tandem) DZ in OZ as far as i am aware. They have a target of 16k for 2010 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So in your mind you don;t think that laughter as she said "i'm flying" (that is impossible to capture with outside video) is not enough? For some Handicam is more preferable as they want to see their face in the screen the whole time, they want the footage under parachute and their reaction upon opening. For others they don't want to see their face flapping in the wind, they want more scenery (if there is any) and they want to see the parachute from the outside perspective upon landing. Handicam is good for those that want it. Outside camera is good for those that want it. Both, is the best option for most, exept those that really do not want to see their face flapping. Which requires an outside camera man to keep their distance. I too used to be a camera guy that didn't really like the concept if hand cam on its own. But after doing a couple of thousand of them and seeing the reactions from customers that get it. I have changed my mind. Handcam in some cases provides EXACTLY what the customer prefers. Each to thier own, and that is why either or a combination of the two should be offered at every dropzone, let the customer decide what they want. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Hi thanks for the replies, We have part 105 too, part 149 (requires the holder to go) goes into more detail. and part 115 will make the rules more stringent for commercial activities. I always thought the USPA was a part 149 (type) organisation but it seems it is not. I can see where the ambiguity comes from now. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Even recently the change from DV cameras to solid state cameras has made a huge difference in quality. 170 degree FOV for handcam is awesome. Job security for vidiots is not a problem if they would move on and get a tandem rating once they have 1000-2000 jumps. It is vidiots that do not move on to tandem that make the roadblock for up and coming vidiots and T/M's. The demad for outside camera will always be there, but the ability to deliver it without costing the DZOI money may not be. DZO's are not there to 'Give' jumpers thier fun, they provide a facility that jumpers can obtain it. I beleive we would be foolish to not supply outside camera at our DZ and it has been a primary focus of mine since the word Go. (I too want to do outside camera as I enjoy it the most) Handicam has made it possible for us to get to the point where we can provide it! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

No matter how many comments you post, you will ignore the content of the subject and focus your attention to a poster that you dislike. 'The rest of us' are sick of your inability to talk about the subject! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Wow! This explains the ambiguity of the rules there pertaining to the age of the participants. As much as regulation can get in the way sometimes, lack of regulation can damage the reputation of the activity and make it less accessable to everyone. By some having the right to do things that are forbidden by rules for another. When something is regulated the grey areas are removed and we wouldn't be having this converstation. Surely there is some code in the FAA rules that cover the requirements of a dropzone? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

O.k. now we are getting somewhere. So is there a Rule/law that a dropzone must belong to and organising entity such as the USPA? We have what is called CAA part 149 (sport Aviation) organisations, there are 3 of them in NZ and each DZ must belong to one of them in order to oerate legally. The Part 149 organisations are then answerable to the CAA. Soon this will be changed to the new Part 115 (adventure aviation) due to the commercial aspect of skydiving in NZ. This will essentially remove the existance if the Part 149 organisations and each DZ will be directly associated with the CAA. So I guess my question is this; Are the DZ's that are not USPA, affiliated with another organisation similar to the USPA? or are they just operating independantly? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Hey Guy, By the rest of us do you mean everyone that reads these forums? Or just the few that have replied? Or those that PM me rather than posting here to avoid being attacked by the post whore gremlins? Or everyone in America? Or what? what is you definition of; Seems like you are the grand poobah or something. Where is your opinion on the subject? Which by the way is not me. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

It is perfectly clear, and always has been. The diffence you all seem to be ignoring is that here in NZ a Guardian can sign a waiver so we can be following all the rules and take minors. You are saying that it is legal to take minors in the USA if you DO NOT follow the rules. USPA BSR's do not apply in New Zealand, so we can take minirs AND follow the rules. Big Difference. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Who doesn't then, there are 300+DZ's in NA I have been to only a handful. If a DZ does not have a waiver, they run the risk of litigation if something routine was to happen. But then they could take minors legally. I doubt there are very many DZ's that do not have waivers, some even video you when you sign and get you to make a statement on the said video. As far as I am aware, a waiver does not sign away any rights, it simply states that the individual is aware of the risk they are accepting by participating in the said activity. If neglegence was to occur with or without a waiver, then the partcipant is well within thier rights to pursue legal action. The difference between NZ and USA in this respect is the amount of compenstaion, I am yet to see or hear of a situation where someone sues another party and is compensated with millions of dollars in NZ, but it is talked about on a daily basis in the USA. We don't have wording about rights and the removal of them. We have wording about the assumtion of risk. If I was to kill someone or injure someone, there will be legal proceedings if there was neglegence involved, whether or not a waiver is signed. That is why I don't understand what the fuss is about. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix