rhys

So where it may not be against the Law, it is against the rules. So in either case a minor is unable to jump due to the legality of it all. In New Zealand (and many other countries) it is legal for a parent to sign a waiver on behalf of their child, so in turn this makes it possible for minors to jump tandem. So really we are just dancing around semantics, as if it were not for that particular law in the USA, minors would be jumping all over the place. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

There are plenty of dickheads here in New Zeland, as much as there are plenty of dickheads there in the USA. Pointing out a dickhead is not the same as calling that whole country a bunch of dickheads. This is reason you seem reluctant to accept. This single minded attitude you have towards my ability to voice my opinion, is far from what your constitution suggests you do. I do not hate america, Amercia has plenty of great things, there are also plenty of dickheads there that wish to spoil its reputation however and seem to be doing a great job of it. But you get that when you have 300 million people. There will be a vast array of different attitudes and a raised level of corruption and greed due to the amount of money and power that comes with the administration of such a huge amount of people. Fortunatly I can see through that and don't hold all the american people accountable, in fact I have A LOT of american friends, A LOT of them, so this in itself renders your statement not only biased but severely inaccurate. I suggest you stick to the subject (which is not me by the way). "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

??? So, I am trying to get my head around this. It is not illegal, BUT (and it is a big but) In order to take a tandem one will have a waiver, this waiver needs to be signed, if it is not signed and something (neglagent or not) happens, then the Customer that is injured due to this incident can then sure the ass off the operation. Therefore; All operations have a waiver, and it is not legal for a parent to sign a waiver for their child in the USA? Correct? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I do not know what the costs are in the United States, but I imagine the margins are similar as to here in NZ. We charge $299 for a tandem and in the US it is about $200? depending on where you go. TIMES HAVE CHANGED. Our margin of profit if we take 2 tandems (no camera) in a C185 to 12k are slim, If we take 1 tandem with a camera guy... same. The productivity is also out the window, and people will go to the (turbine) DZ down the road that doesn't split up the couples if they decide to get outside camera. Handcam has become a necessity for New DZ's. At least here, it would not be worth it anymore if handcam was not available. On the other hand, once your business is built up a bit and you can run a turbine that has the capability of at least 9 pax. then you get back into the outside camera territory but it must be a good percentage more to purchase it. This is where we are at right now, we have a turbine on the way and camera guys on standby for when it does. We will still offer handcam as well as outside video and a combination of both. Your rationale you say handcam rips of the customer by not showing the exit.... ...is incorrect. Handicam does show the exit, the expession on the face of the student, and also shows thier reaction once the canopy opens, them flying the parachute..., so not offering handcam is ripping off the customers. Offering both is the way forward. But my point is, without handcam it is next to impossible to make/create a profitable tandem skydiving business these days, a club may be able to break even bhut there will be little profit to subsidise the sport jumpers, couples that wish to jump together will be stuck of you have a 182, 185..... Try opening a DZ, adding the costs together, then come back to us. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This is the most correct and informative answer, Thanks. It appears your government is in control of what your youth do and not the parents. This is far from freedom, That is my point. My wife was 13 when she did her first tandem, by 16 she had done 6 (all paid by her, by working after school), on her 16th birthday she was up on stage 2 aff (she had already done stage 1 on a tandem). She left school at 16 to pursue a career in skydiving, her school teacher told her she would fail and that it was not possible to make a living out of skydiving. By 18 she had 1000 jumps and was earning 50k+ a year ( 15k more than her teacher) doing tandem videos. Now she has jumped on all continents except antarctica, has 2 world records, multipule national records, has competed at the world championships 3 times and is owner of 2 skydiving based LLC's at the age or 26. I didn't even start jumping until 27. Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there) s'all I'm, sayin. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So the minor cannot decide for himself or herself whether or not they can jump from a plane at age 16. and their parents cannot also, so..... The government decides. You appear to be mistaken, if you cannot decide for yourself that you want to jump from a plane and sign a waiver saying you accept the risk, then you are not yet afforded that right. So the government decides. You are mistaken, I have a low regard for any misuse if freedom, whichever place it may originate. If you want to bundle yourself in one pile with all those in your country that commit crimes, fraud and corruption / put words in my mouth, Fine. I like to think each person is an individual, wherever they come from. And each individual has (should have) the right to decide for themselves what they can or cannot do that is within the law, If one is too young to decide that, then it is (Should be) up to their parents, but the child should have to agree. My customers all have fun and they decide for themselves whether they jump or not, My government does not interfere, litigation does not interfere. If someone wants to jump from a plane and they are big enough for the harness, and they are willing to pay then so be it. We don't make people jump, they decide. If they say they don't want to jump, they can ride the plane down, simple. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Hi Matt. I said nothing about signing away any rights. This is about 'permission' to jump from a plane. If an incident happened and there was neglegence, then no matter how old or young the passenger is, there could be a lawsuit. From what I understand you are telling me, until you are 18 years old in america (21 in some places), the govenment and legal system has more to say about what you can and cannot do than your parents have? Land of the free; my ass. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I have seen a few jumps where the tandem customer has a handicam glove on. usually they are skydivers themselves, and in one case was the son of the DZO so too young to be a skydiver but had a handful of tandems... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

and there you have it, bullshit litigation takes over from common sense once again. I am so happy we do not have the same level of legal issues here as you guys have, we took a group of indians the other day and and 7 of them were under 18, as young as 11. one of the 11 year olds went twice, was more coherent than his parents, more relaxed and enjoyed it immensly. What difference does it make if someone is 15 or 18....or 88. I understand the manufacturers not wanting a grey area there, as they have probably all felt the sting of litigation at some pont or another. But in reality if a person want to go that is under 18 and they have the permission from thier parents, then who has the right to say they cannot do that. Is america not the land of the free? At what age can on hire purchase goods in USA is that also 18? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

forgot about that one. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I agree with you. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

haha, he said he took in a deep breath before exit and did not exhale until opening... ...false statement. That is the root of this subject. Hey, you can applaud him all you like, your perogative, but the fact of the matter is that he either mislead us at the beginning of the topic, or mis-diagnosed the situation (my concern). Simple After watching the video, I realised he was in fact breathing, and that it was simple a mistake in the initial reporting he gave us. I have said this many times now. When the student chimed in I asked him if he thought held his breath the whole time, he said no. Point confirmed. What is so difficult to understand about that? There was no hindsight, I spotted this mistake a mile away and that is why I have taken the time to prove my point. This is become a real bore, though it is interesting how defensive people can be for those that they admire. Quite sad really when all the facts are out in the open and they speak for themselves. We all make mistakes, it just seems some are not willing to admit it. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

It varies from DZ to DZ and country to country. I guess the best idea is to look into you local options, then regonal, national, international... I travelled for 5 years jumping in different DZ's and countries chasing the experience and positions. Some are fortunate enough to live down the road from a busy turbine DZ that offers good pay and some have to travel the whole time. The answer to your question has many variables. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Once again you are showing you inability to comprehend what I am saying. It has been proven boyond reasonable doubt that DSE gave us false information to work with. He said the student held his breath from exit to opening, on two consecutive jumps. The student chimed in as informd us that this was not the case. That is my point. Maybe you need to be addressin DSE's teaching or diagnosis techniques? First one must determine the problem correctly, then that may fix it. If in fact the student 'was' holding thier breath for the whloe jump, then the method for correcting them would likely be somewhat different than correcting what actually happened. He held his breath before opening, quite different to what the facts are. Go back and read the thread, I have pointed this out a number of times now. If we had been given the correct details to begin with, this converstaion would not have evolved the way it has. Storm in a teacup over some fib. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Be clear that someone saying they could not breath in freefall is quite different to someone taking a breath before exit and not exhaling until that parachute opens. This may have happened a few times in history, but not very often and never to me. They will feel like they could not breath, say they could not breath, but be assured they were breathing. Plenty of people say thay cannot breath in freefall, that happens all the time, it is not that they cannot breath, there is no problem breathing in freefall, but the problem is them not being relaxed and tensing their muscles, they are holding thier breath. It is anxiety that does this. This stuff seems very basic to me, but it also seems to me that many here have trouble comprehending this. We have ascertianed that he was not holding his breath for the whole time, He even told us he was not. He has got through the difficult stage and will be fine now most likely. There is a distinct difference between taking it back a notch to become more comfortable in your progression and not jumping at all. Nobody ever yelled at him or said they should not be in the sky. Some people here are having real comprehention issues. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

yes, I have noticed the musc labels are taking advantage of their music being used by people in videos posted on youtube, often a link to purchase the track is automatically applied to the page. So in a way it is free advertising. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

anyone know the nitty gritties on this? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Think about this for a minute, you admit that you are not the natural type and you have just over 200 jumps. Read the reply DSE made to this coment in another thread earlier; (DSE's reply); Fixed it fer ya. And at 500 jumps with an instructor, some aren't ready/able to manage a wingsuit. You admit you are not a natural, and you are tense, but you defend him taking you on these jumps when you only just have the recommended experience level for such a jump, in the best possible scenario (a natural, fast learning and comfortable student). I can see (if your profile is correct) that you have done your 200+ jumps within 2 years, if you are that current and still having trouble relaxing then maybe you need to slow down a bit with your progression. I know you very much want to achieve your goals, but rushing it does not make the result any more satisfying. Personally I am dubious of the ethics of these lessons you have been getting. But once again I do not have enough information to make that decision conclusively. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Appology accepted, I too am sucked in to these type of things. No worries. You too.

There, we have found the root of the problem in this thread. As I suspected, we were given the incorrect information to begin with. That is the problem with this thread. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

My point also. Good point. That website was quite humorous to view, but I imagine it is not intended to be so? It really does point out how different some people are. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Thanks for chiming in. Tell me, do you honestly feel you did not take a breath from exit to opening on those two consecutive jumps? Not intermitant breathing but holding your breath the whole time? I am glad you are up there and enjoying it. Good for you. If you can answer that one question, that would help clarify the situation considerably. Take care, Rhys "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

See my previous post for the reply to that. The information given to us is that the person held his breath from exit to opening on two consecutive jumps, that would be a reasonable assumption. Watching the video, it is quite apparent that this is not the case, yes he is stiff, yes he may have held his breath immediately before opening (VERY COMMON), but the whole time.... Hogwash! He would have been close to passing out if he was holding his breath for that long while holding a stiff position. He was not. he would have been red/blue in the face, he was not. You try, 90 second while holding your arms and legs in a stiff position....dreaming! It is the information we are given that we have to work with, incorrect information gives incorrect results. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Thanks you for bringing the conversation to the level it should be. That is a valid point, however I would have thought that it would only remind you to breath of you actually took a breath?, I know the feeling these strips give you on the back of the throat, but don't you usually have to take a breath to get that sensation? we were told that he was holding his breath from exit to opening, which I find very difficult to beleive. If this were the case, that effect you say would be moot would it not? I am all for using placebo to, for hypochondriacs in medicine etc. But I am not sure whether it is a good idea in skydiving instruction. When I say not sure, this is where my interest in this conversation arises. These are things should have been (and may have been) used, as much as DSE and his student say they know it was not a breathing pill. That is what he said, and that is the point he was putting accross to random people in an instrcutors forum where many up and coming instrcutors will be reading. No they are an instruction, they are a physical reminder made from the instructor to the student at the time when they are doing the said activity. I am not out to argue, and we can agree to disagree, there are many different teaching aids that some will use and some will not. Some are effective for some people and others will have success with other techniques. If this technique worked well for DSE and his student, great, but don't go posting it online as a great effective trick for those having difficulties breathing, OFTEN breathing difficulties come from those that are undergoing a task they are uncomfortable with. This is the concern I had and that I feel the others that have oposed this technique have had also. But once again it our perogative to not use the said technique, comment on our concerns with it and suggest that it potentially should not be used. And also, thanks again for a diplomatic reply that focuses on the subject rather than the poster, it is (mind the pun) a breath of fresh air . "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[eyes roll back] "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix