skycop

University police officers normally are among the most educated. Many that I know have advanced degrees. Getting street smarts on a college campus can be a challenge though. Police work had changed vastly over the last 20 yrs. Most of our new hires have degrees, some have advanced degrees. The bad thing is that your LAPD example probably isn't right. They would hire the guy, most large departments are having a hard time finding qualified people. In a decent economy most 20 somethings don't want to put up with all the bullshit cops do, many of the things we discussed here. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Not in the least bit, it appears the pepperball gun was used improperly by firing into the crowd. The point is you weren't there, I wasn't either. I said appears. The point was any weapon is dangerous, for all we know it was used properly, firing at the lower body and it missed, or she could have ducked into the round, we don't know. BUT pepperball guns are still a useful tool, as is OC, as is open handed force, you failed to rebut those. You also forgot the ACTIONS part, having knives and a hammer would count in the actions part. Being in a rioting crowd is never a good idea, bad things can happen (not just from the cops). None of these things happened in vacuum. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

You don't know the facts, nor do I. Commenting on something based purely based on media accounts is a foolish thing to do. And yes a jury will decide the facts as they are presented. The point of this thread was the tazing of the kid in Florida. I tried to state facts as they exist, based on my over 20yrs experience. The court of public opinion means much less with the advent of the 24hr news cycle. There a literally thousands upon thousands of police/citizen interactions daily in this country. Many of these are under very stressful and dynamic conditions for the public and the officer, and yet they are resolved without incident. The incidents are newsworthy because they are rare, they also feed the 24 hour beast. I also deal with the media in a medium to large market weekly, sometimes daily. I understand what ratings and sweeps week mean. The media rarely get the all the facts right, they are human just like we are. In all the cases listed in this thread, the tazer or force was used in response to some type of action taken by the suspect. The cops are not running around tazing people for no reason, it just doesn't happen. Some may not like the reason, but there is a reason. I work in a urban area, I can tell you without hesitation we do every thing we can to avoid using force. It hurts and it causes a great deal of paperwork. My "fun meter" is running in the red on this thread. The VAST majority of cops want to do their jobs to the very best they can. The ones who use force on a regular basis don't last very long. There is one poster in this thread who probably doesn't like cops much, but he at least understands why they do what they do, when they do it. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Hmm..... Armed with two knives and a hammer....... Guess they could have shot her with a bunch of beanbags or other impact items. The officers could have bum-rushed her and got stabbed, but wait, that's what we get paid to do right? You or I have no idea what happened in this situation, only the ones present do. I don't rush to judgement, especially based on media accounts. Guess I am a pussy because I have no desire to rush ANYONE with a knife, let alone two and a hammer. A tazer would let me resolve situations from a distance. If you have read all my posts you we see that we don't carry tazers, also if officers abuse them or use them in lieu of good communication skills then they should be disciplined. But as it usually goes when people are confronted with facts in this forum, some in the thread have started name calling. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Willard, Don't let them get under you skin, that is what they want. One time I had a chance to tell Michael Moore to fuck off right to his face. I thought about it and decided not to. I walked up to him, saw just how pathetic he was, laughed and walked away. When someone did say something to him from across the street. He yelled harrassment and wanted the police called. This kid involved in the Kerry situation strikes me as a Michael Moore type, kick and scream, jump up and down, eventually someone will listen. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

I'm not disputing they are less lethal, or non-lethal or whatever you want to call it. The tazer is not the problem, it's the suspects actions, lifestyle or both that have caused untimely deaths. These deaths are not limited to tazers, so all types of force or less lethal force should be banned then right? Examples: 300+ pound guy, high on PCP and cocaine fights with the cops by trying to take the first swing and missing, cop(s) use batons (no tazers available) multiple times to gain compliance. Suspect taken into custody after a somewhat prolonged struggle and dies after his heart explodes from over excersion. All this is caught on video. There is a huge public outcry about why the cops had to hit him with their batons. They demand what should have been used? A TAZER........... During a disturbance after a baseball game, Pepperball guns are fired into a crowd to disperse them. They are basiclly paintball guns that fire paintballs filled with powdered OC. A potentially uninvolved female gets hit in the eye and dies. A suspect fights with the cops, get sprayed with OC, has a respiratory reaction to the OC and dies. A 350+ lb guy decides he does not want to go to the hospital to be treated for mental problems after being told by mental health professionals he is being committed. He swings at fire department personnel, a struggle ensues with fireman and cops. The guys dies form his heart exploding due to over excersion. In this case open handed force was used, no impact weapons were used at all. So with these facts in mind, all types of force should be banned? I live in the real world, I was personally involved in one of these and the lawsuit that followed. There is no type of force that is completely safe, there are no fights that are pretty. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

I'm not worried about my feelings getting hurt. If we ever had an interaction it would be based on your actions, my observations, and any other number of factors along with any applicable laws. Depending on those factors I may be a good cop, a bad cop or something in between (in your eyes). Your thoughts of me would not matter in my decision making process. This WAS a civil discussion for a long time and thankfully was virtually rant free on all sides. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

WOW, Need I say more "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Ok. Just don't let facts get in the way. Rubber bullets would not be an appropriate use of force in this situation. I knew it would only be a matter of time before somebody envoked Rodney King....... That WAS a beating, those guys did deserve to go to jail. With that said, if the officers in this situation were thumping this kid with their fists and wailing away then I'd be on your side. These officers were acting according to their training, as unpleasant as it may be to watch, use of forces seldom are. Once the kid started pushing, shoving, and flailing his arms he did become a threat, and was dealt with accordingly. As far as just being obnoxious, once HE made it physical he escalated the situation. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Restraint and control techniques are taught however, outside of a controlled environment they can be less than effective. I do agree that it becomes easier for an officer to use a tazer than good communication skills. Most medium to larger departments track use of force by officers. It falls on supervison to track and deal with officers that fall into this catagory. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Absolutely wrong. They are less lethal not non-lethal, any weapon, even used properly has the possibility of being lethal. I'm glad someone brought up the use the club or mace argument. If they were striking him with an ASP (collapsible baton) or the PR-24 (baton with handle grip) we would be having the same discussion. The thread title would have been "student beaten with baton" or something along those lines. Strikes with a baton cause injury virtually every time. The recovery time for tazers is much less and there is no permanent injury. Mace or OC would have cleared half the room as well as MAYBE working on the bad guy. I've seen OC just piss people off more. The scale (use of force continuum) you are referring to has 4 levels: Verbal- To persuade Empty Handed-Seeks compliance with the use of restraint techniques, holds, armbars etc. Less lethal- met to impede the aggressors actions. With use of less lethal tools or weapons, batons, OC/mace/tazer. Deadly Force- To stop the aggressors actions to protect life The tazer falls in the Less than Lethal level. Remember an officer can use one step ahead of the aggressor to prevent injury. Injury can occur to the aggressor or officer at levels above verbal. These levels are universally accepted by the International Association of Chiefs of Police IACP. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

You missed the point, I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE FIRST PUNCH, I have and it hurts, along with having my mouth wired shut for 6 weeks. If the headline reads "cop punched in face, suspect tazed" then I have failed to do my job. My job is to prevent that from happening. Getting back to the point, this kid actively resisted, watch the long version. I've already seen versions where his resistance is edited out until he gets tazed. I would say several times he pulled away, pushed and attempted to flee. It's not the job of those officers to let him hit them, once he resisted they are trained to stay one step ahead of him to overcome the resistance and the attempt to flee. You may not like this, but they are facts. I would also say that initally the officers where just going to escort him out of the venue without any arrest, but his antics caused the situation to escalate. If some woman claims to be hog-tied then tazed six times and it's true, well then that agency may as well get a blank checkbook out. And said woman should be able to retire to wherever she wants. Take all cases into account, not just the sensational ones. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

I won't agree with it becoming more and more common. It is sensational and the media treats it that way. I said in an earlier post that the UCLA library guy IMHO was not a tazer candidate, but you really can't see what he is doing so I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the officer (just look at my name)....lol My job is not to take the first shot then react, the use of force continium lets me stay one step ahead of a suspect to prevent injury. The alternative is a wrestling match, or using an impact weapon or worse. As macho as this sounds, I don't have to do a Google search dude, I live this stuff. We don't have tazers, I wish we did "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Why could'nt Rush Limbaugh have just stuck to doing radio.................. After his stupid comments can ya blame McNabb, he seems like a decent guy, he certainly didn't take any of TO's shit!!! "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

The only way tazers will going away is if groups like Amnesty International get their way. Tazers are and have been the most effective way to deal with non-compliant/resisting suspects. The deaths associated with tazers can be attributed to the suspects physical condition (or lack thereof), varying types and levels of intoxicants, and other OUTSIDE factors. Every cop who uses a tazer gets tazed in training, there are no deaths associated with this training that I know of however there have been a few injuries from falling. Training injuries are nearly impossible to prevent if you train realistically. Do tazers get abused, absolutely and there are remedies for that, I'm sure more than one person has won hefty judgments in reference to abuse cases. Also I'm sure cops have lost their jobs over tazer use. That goes with any tool applied when using force. Situations too numerous to mention have been resolved with the use of a tazer, preventing officer and suspect injuries alike. The alternative is striking, OCing, beating, or as a last resort shooting a suspect as opposed to incapacitating a combative suspect with a tazer. The six cops on one thing is laughable, numbers are used to prevent injuries. The last thing I want is a fair fight, I want to win without hurting me or the bad guy. You could not cuff a 100lb woman if she didn't really want you to, without causing an injury. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

I'm sure the organizers of the event decided when the discourse turned disruptive to the point of removal. Only then were the cops brought in or near him. The other post sort of sets the stage for events leading up to the "confrontation". I've been present (in an official capacity) at numerous city council meetings that emotional issues were brought up and discussed. I think you are comparing apples and oranges, this meeting I'm sure had time constraints due to the stature and standing (argh.... I hate saying that about John Kerry) of the speaker. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

There is a clearer video I saw on liveleak, it shows the kid ACTIVELY resisting to the point he had to be tackled. After the tackle he continued and was tazed. Using force is never pretty, and on the other video Tucker Carlson and some other reporter type start dissing the cops. I'm sure Tucker Carlson has never had to fight anyone. Once the fight starts cops fight to win period, that is how we go home at night. I'm not being overly dramatic, we have to gain control of situations as soon as possible. I've seen some really silly situations get out of control, then alot more force has to be used on more people. I had more questions when the video came out of the kid in the UCLA library that got tazed. IMHO passive resistance does not require tazer use. In this case the kid was actively resisting and the use was appropriate, no how bad it looks to the average person. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Exactly, The kid actively resisted and was dealt with accordingly. I'm sure the reason he was arrested was his grandstanding and not letting Mr. Kerry answer. At some point order has to be restored to the event. I'm no fan of John Kerry but this kid was WAY over the top. I liked his frat-boy statement "don't taze me bro'". All he had to do was comply initially and there would have been no problem. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Very well put....... FOR A FREAKIN' ROOKIE.............. I could'nt have put it any better, I really enjoy using communication skills to de-escalate situations. My goal everytime I interact with people is to have them say thank you or shake my hand. Even if they disagree with me or my actions, they know where I'm coming from. And yes, me and every supervisor I know will absolutely hammer an officer, if they willingly or knowingly act in an inappropriate or unprofessional manner. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Exactly, Many years ago we did get creative in dealing with people. I've taken keys away, had drunks sleep it off in their cars etc., unfortunately those days are long gone. I've been sued for giving someone a break (not related to the above situations). Now because of this I no longer give this particular break, and this has cost jail time for folks that usually woundn't get jail time. Sorry state of affairs really, the civil court system has turned into a quasi lottery. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Blue skies, My brother in blue.................. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Nah, it wasn't that big of a deal. They want that violent reaction, and I wasn't going to give it to them. The look on their face when I laughed was enough for me. The funny thing is, one of the guys in this group was shot and killed by another "activist" a couple of years later infront of city hall. These goofs could'nt get along with each other, so I wasn't going to give them the time of day. The overwhelming response I received when I got back was very positive. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

It's pretty simple, this is just prudent planning. If one of these groups had pulled off some kind of violence, there would be a thread "Why didn't NYPD do anything"............."why weren't they prepared".... "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

Auto-Ordinance sucks, I had a AO 1911 "Pitbull" a few years back. It was very compact but it never functioned properly. I would recommend a Para-Ordinance compact. If you have small hands maybe you should look at a .40 cal., almost the stopping power of a .45 but (usually) a smaller more user friendly gun. Good luck!

When I got back in 2002 after supporting the GWOT, I went to a festival in downtown Cincinnati wearing my desert floppy hat. There were some protesters decrying police brutality because of a previous incident. They saw my hat and asked if I was in the military and had been overseas, when I said yes they started yelling "baby killer" and pointing. I just laughed and told them I was a cop also, and they could kiss my ass with a smile. They really just didn't have a clue, it was kinda sad really. "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"