jaybird18c

So how come some of them do? False conversion.

An analogy I heard: If I lie to a guy on the street, not much will happen to me. If I lie to my wife, I’ll be sleeping on the couch for a while. If I lie to my employer, I’ll most likely get fired. If I lie to a Judge, I’ll probably go to jail for a very long time. Same crime. Different punishment. Why? Because of how much we esteem the one against whom the offense was directed. A perfectly holy and righteous God. Man was originally created in the image of God with the free will to choose and with a nature which was in perfect harmony with God’s will. Man chose to sin. This had a radically corrupting effect not only on man’s nature but on all of creation. Because of this, you were born with a nature in conflict with and hostile towards God. You act exactly in accordance with your greatest desires which, apart from Christ, is contrary to his will. But you are still free to choose. It’s just that you choose to sin and are, therefore responsible. Unless God changes or “regenerates” your very nature, you will continue on your chosen path.

We used the verbiage “Act of God” as a legal term for unpredictable/unexplainable circumstances and your inference is that God’s statues are “capricious and random?” To what exactly do you refer? No argument there. But you’re already guilty of being a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. That’s like a criminal saying I murdered so and so but for 10 years I helped granny across the street to make it alright. God created you but he’s never…I repeat…never caused someone to sin. You are in fact responsible for your actions. A guilty criminal stands in court before the Judge who’s about to place sentence and he asks the Judge what’s wrong with him? Maybe that satisfies the criminal in some way but justice will take its course regardless.

I'm agnostic with regard to purple winged unicorns. Are you agnostic with regard to God?

“Capricious and random” declared by you. What’s amazing is the patience God has demonstrated with those today who continually sin against him. As an atheist, you’ve obviously not made God the top priority in your life. If that be the case, you’ve idolized and assigned other things in your life a higher value. I assume that, in spite of your disbelief, you’ve used the Lord’s name in vain. Keeping his day holy would be out of the question. I’m sure you’ve not always honored your parents. If you’ve ever hated another without just cause, you’ve committed murder in your heart. If you’ve ever looked with lust outside the covenantal bounds of marriage, you’ve committed adultery in your heart, if not also in deed. If you’ve ever stolen something, regardless of value or when, you’re a thief. If you’ve ever told a lie, you’re a liar. If you’ve ever dwelt on the desire to have something which doesn’t belong to you, you’re guilty of coveting. Before questioning the Lawgiver, you ought to examine yourself and figure out how you’re going to do when you stand before the Judge when you die.

Am I supposed to be impressed with you? Do you have anything intelligent to say on the topic or are you just going to keep running off at the mouth?

I take it that means you don't know how to answer any more questions? No. Just yours which have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. But you can take it however you want. Just don't have the time for the usual back and forth political garbage.

I'll make it easy. "Can an atheist get into heaven?" Your anti-Trump, anti-gun rights, gay/lesbian crap has got nothing to do with that.

Again, I have to assume you're serious. Where do you get your information?

Do you have any serious questions? How are these not serious questions? You state you are willing to accept an idiot and a tool as your President as long as he is pushing the agenda you want. I think it is demonstrable that President Idiot Tool's agenda, which evidently is also your agenda, has a number of serious and negative consequences both for certain groups of Americans and the reputation of our country on the world stage. If you are willing to make such a statement in a public forum you should also be willing to explain it on a public forum. Apparently, you are not so willing. "jaybird18c wrote: Just for the record, I don't defend Trump's idiocy. He's a tool. As long as he's pushing the agenda I want, I'm for him. But that's as far as I go. I have little respect for him as a person." I asked: "Do you believe the agenda you want is good for America? Clearly, Trumps agenda harms many of your fellow citizens, in particular those in the LGBT community. I would include the increasing numbers of americans unable to afford health care. There are more, of course. Is that simply acceptable collateral damage or are those folks simply expendable types according to the natural order? To the point, what is it in your agenda that makes harm to other americans acceptable? Given that you think Trump is an idiot and a tool for whom you have little respect, is it the case that our standing on the world stage is not part of your agenda?" Stay focused. You asked the stupid question of whether or not we'll need guns in heaven. Then you revert back to politics. I asked if you ever had any serious questions. I thought staying on topic was implied. My bad.

Do you have any serious questions?

Again, go find your safe place and depend on others to save you and your family. I handle things differently.

Of course you don't but I'm glad you're back on topic! Indeed, and you are welcome. Now will you answer my questions? I could. But I'd really like to stay on topic. I entered the thread to discuss theological issues, not conservative vs. liberal politics. Gotta add, though. I am permitted to conceal carry and do so often. I've not been required to take action to protect myself with a firearm in this country but I have elsewhere. My right to do so is guaranteed in the Constitution . However, I would do so even if it weren't.

Of course you don't but I'm glad you're back on topic!

By all definitions, yes. Do you need a safe place, counseling, etc.? Don't go off the edge just yet. I realize you Oregon snowflakes have to pump your own gas and stuff like that now. But smoke some more weed. The great philosopher Bob Marley said "every tin gonna be alright."

You mad bro?

I'm not talking about friends. We were talking about open border, we are the world, kumbaya stuff, right? You just drive the border and bring Mexican strangers in your home, feed them a meal, let them sleep on your couch, keeping your doors unlocked, of course, before you send them off to your favorite sanctuary city, who's government can support their illegal activity, and shovel taxpayer funded welfare programs in their direction?

How many Mexicans have you brought into your home in the name of communal love and charity?

Charity and protecting your borders are two different things. I'll bet you lock your doors at night.

In this regard, punishment is certainly a consequence of sin which is transgression of the Law. Just like in our judicial system. However, it is not “the ‘only important thing’ that has to happen” as a result. I never said that. That’s only half the story. I went on to describe the rest. The part where God stepped in sending his Son, to pay the fine which was due us, in our place, because it is impossible for us to do so, imputing his righteousness to us, and our guilt to him, both undeserved. Again, he suffered infinitely more than the obvious. The Bible says that “It pleased Yahweh to crush him.” God did not withhold judgment on him in order to ransom his people. Well, you’re focusing on three days being dead in a tomb and I’m trying to explain that it was much more than that. There’s no need to be an ass. Now you’re apparently not paying attention and staying focused. Because Jesus, being the Son of God, was infinitely more worthy than all of us combined. His sacrifice was deemed by God himself sufficient. Apart from him representing you before the Father, you will face judgement. However, it would be impossible for you to face the same, let alone worse, punishment which he did. God did not withhold punishment on his Son. That’s the point. It’s the same scenario as Moses and his son Isaac. He was to sacrifice his son. However, God stopped him and said that a sacrifice would be provided. This illustration was pointing forward to the worthy sacrifice which God would provide himself to save his people.

I never said that punishment was the only important thing. Although, it should warrant concern. My point in all of this is God's solution to the sin problem resulting in hope. Jesus is in fact currently alive and in a place of honor with God. He will return again to judge the world in righteousness. Jesus suffered the wrath of God in the exact measure which was required to satisfy the requirement. You are missing the unseen spiritual suffering which took place and only focusing on the physical crucifixion. Jesus did not sweat tears of blood because he was primarily worried about Roman soldiers or crucifixion. I have no idea what you're talking about.

An agnostic is unsure about the existence of God. Do you not think that the existence of God is a basic teaching of Christianity. That's like saying I believe in skydiving but not so much about the whole falling out of an airplane thing.

What is an "agnostic Christian" anyway? Do you not find that contradictory?

God in three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Trinity) existed in eternity past, perfectly content, in need of nothing. What is amazing is that he humbled himself, becoming a man, on our behalf. It's the "solitary" attribute of God. Being Emanuel (God with us), he could efficiently represent our human nature, living in perfect adherence to the Law, which we could not. Being "the spotless/unblemished lamb," undeserving of God's wrath, he could serve as a substitute (propitiation). The reason Jesus' death was sufficient was because his life was worth more than all of us in the history of mankind combined. He didn't take the ultimate punishment for us by being tortured and crucified by Roman soldiers. He took the ultimate punishment for us by suffering the wrath of God himself which was aimed at us who deserved it. (Isaiah 53:10-12)

Sheol/Hades was different from hell.