Farflung

Robert99 is correct in that document is not a flight plan, nor is it a navigation chart. Who thought that thing was a flight plan in the first place? Weird. I think if a person was to consider the date (1958) and the available technology, they could arrive at a reasonable conclusion as to just what that document is used for. I mean if a person can finger Cooper with little or no information then the function of this parchment should be self evident. Oh dang, I feel I’ve already over explained. Sorry, I fail.

There was a mini-stink made about Cooper requesting ‘negotiable American currency’ as indicative of foreign origins. Like Canada. After the spirited research regarding sport parachutes and circling Tacoma, I was inspired to trace the provenance of the request. Of course I’m not sure what is the gospel truth but the first recorded indication was on the crew notes, page 4. Someone wrote “wants money in negotiable currency”. Then at some time later and unknown touch points, someone typed “WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRENCY”. This culminating as evidence that Cooper would be a foreigner since an American would not ask for ‘American currency’. http://www.canada.com/news/Investigators+find+Canadian+connection+famous+Cooper+cold+case/5762440/story.html I think this may be a case of ‘telephone’ being played out where each telling of a story contains some slight, barely detectable nuance where the end product may not resemble the original article. I simply can’t think of an example where this has happened in real life. Sorry, I fail.

RobertMBlevins makes another astonishing statement with: “People quote each other so much around here, you need a scorecard to keep track.” I would hope this would be the case for every historian, author or investigator writing NON-fiction. Without source attribution Shemya would have sunk into the Bering Sea in 1951, under the weight of all the Dan Cooper comic books by now. Without a scorecard Captain Scott would have done much more than talk to Cooper. Here’s how it probably would have played out if that went unchecked: (insert dream sequence effects) As Captain Scott walked away from the hijacker satisfied that there was a threat to the lives on board that jet. A jet which cut through the skies at a merciless speed which heated the air to such a degree, as to leave behind smoke trails which would drift and swirl in the atmosphere, appearing like a sinister fog, a fog which Captain Scott was peering through in his mind. There was something familiar about Cooper, something that nagged Scott as he walked down the fuselage while smiling and nodding at passengers. The woman in seat 12B cradled a child in her arms and her eyes let Scott know that his steady hand controlling that ferocious aircraft, kept her calm while she considered offering herself as a vessel for Captain Scott’s progeny. What was it about Cooper, Scott thought to himself as he passed through First Class where the obscenely wealthy and captains of industry exchanged pleasantries or crafted business deals which would make millions before the plane landed in Seattle. But with all this wealth and power, they still harbored envy in their hearts towards the jet airplane Captain that exuded confidence and that impossible to define, animal magnetism which all the money in the world could not rent for a single minute. They realized how they had dedicated their lives to a treadmill of overcompensation with the goal remaining at a fixed and unobtainable distance. Captain Scott continued toward the cockpit, unaware of these fantasies. Then Scott began to experience that feeling of recall, the sort of sensation when one remembers the name of a song that had plagued them through the day. He was a young First Officer and earning his stripes flying less desirable routes across the Pacific. He remembered a damp and desolate place named Shemya, but what was it? His memory nagged him as there was something about Shemya, a place where he had left comic books in the day room for the mechanics as he passed through. Now his memory became fogged like the vapor trails left behind by the thrusting engines which guzzled fuel and screamed for more. Scott could recall someone from Shemya but just barely, he was tan in the winter and was close friends with a mechanic. They were constant companions in the best sense and were never suspected as having buttseks with each other, even though they spent years and years together on that lonely, hard rock of an island. How’s the fuel flow? asked the First Officer….. this snapped Scott out of his deep thoughts. He had to land this plane in Seattle for the sake of that mother and child. He did not have any more time to spend on Cooper’s identity. I’ll bet this version is well within the 90th percentile for inclusion and accuracy if it wasn’t for all those damn people on this thread demanding sources. Sure would be easier without having to prove everything.

Alright, alright already RobertMBLevins, you are the thread expert on Bernie’s sexuality as well as the expert on when and where he was a temporary bone doner. I don’t have any source materials to dispute your claims and believe you have kept a watchful eye on his activities for years. You win. But for as much as you may know about his sausage plantings, you can’t tie him to the hijacking which is odd considering what you claim to know about him. Freaky I think. You don’t have to worry about the McChord stuff since there has been ample source documentation presented today which disputes previous fables. Same for the Tacoma lights being viewed while circling as you opined yesterday. The LOFAL which you think I have claimed; is in fact the property of the FAA and therefore the American people. No copyrights or trademarks, just good old fashioned public domain material. Skipp may have been the genesis of that brain dead, Paradise Point garbage, but you fully endorsed it as a good idea. Wanna see the quote? We believe, blah, blah, blah. Upriver indeed.

Here’s some more grist for the parse mill smokin99. It appears that McChord AFB and the distance from SeaTac, was not a mystery to DB according to the transcripts from Sluggo’s website. This should put the McChord myth is in a shallow grave with the lights of Tacoma in a …… coma (see what I did?). Leaving the ‘Sport’ Pioneer parachute which had no attachments for a reserve chute and a military, 26 foot, conical canopy as the third of the Cooper vampires getting a wooden stake driven into their cold, black, dead, dignity-less hearts. My goodness, what a difference some research about Cooper’s seat makes in a few days.

I forgot to provide an external source for the Boeing 727’s windows where Cooper may have been seated. Even though it won’t prove anything and is just a waste of time unlike the technical merits of an electronic men’s girdle/VOR receiver or the efforts directed at proving an Airstream trailer was not an aluminum and Formica den of savage sodomy; but rather a vessel moored at Paradise Point State Park where ransom money was tossed into the river before making an eight mile trek ‘upstream’ to Tena Bar. There was no buttseks in the Airstream, just ransom money tossing and nothing more. And the location of the 727’s rear windows don’t prove anything about visibility or seeing Tacoma or McNeil Island so let’s please move on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwJ-g0iJ6w

I remember watching cartoons where some character would be working on a car and throwing parts out from under the hood, while looking for the cause of the vehicles malfunction. We would laugh at these antics because we were children and the cartoon characters were stupid. Stupid people are proof that God has a sense of humor and wanted to share the gift of laughter by creating morons. Those parts being tossed out from the car’s engine compartment may not be of any use at that moment, but may prove to be valuable later on. The fact that some of these parts are used less should not mean that their engineering or production should be of inferior quality either. Strange how people think this way. Oh, just buy the cheapest helmet……. Right because it is protecting something equally worthless. On to more Cooper-mania. I like filters for water, air and information because they help keep crap out of all three. Other people prefer to drop to their knees and drink deeply and directly from the Ebola River and that is fine too, I just won’t do it. Here is an example of a potential ‘crap filter’ and how some constituent parts may lay un-noticed and despised for some period of time. The first artifact is from the communications transcripts from 1971 where control radioed Flight 305 to “…hold on Seattle 307 radio at low fall, maintaining 6,000.” Here is where the data begins its inevitable migration to myth and lore. These are instructions for Flight 305 to go and ‘hang out’. Low fall is in fact an airway intersection called LOFALL (now LOFAL) which resides on an electronic beam transmitted by a VORTAC named Seattle (SEA). The beam which radiates from SEA is called a radial (NOT radio) and is numbered based upon which position it occupies on a magnetic compass rose. In this case 307 degrees or the 307 radial, from SEA at LOFAL. Crystal clear right? The instructions go on to give an altitude of 6,000 feet at which to hold or just under one nautical mile high. A holding pattern is a racetrack shaped, orbit which is oriented towards the navigation station and uses right turns as standard. This can be modified by ATC with extended legs or left hand turns but is not common. So Flight 305 is circling LOFALL, making right turns at 6,000 feet on 24 Nov 1971. See how simple this is without the distractions of steering, bias and manipulation? Some more of that worthless map reading. LOFALL is in fact 29 DME (kinda like miles) northwest of SeaTac and roughly over Port Ludlow, WA, as indicated on the brilliantly crafted map which is attached. Now there is some ‘Big Picture’ perspective regarding where the plane was holding (or circling) in relation to Seattle and Tacoma. As you can see, Tacoma is 43 nautical miles south of LOFALL where Flight 305 was circling at 6,000 feet. Now you can ask your own bad self; Hey, is it plausible to see the lights of Tacoma, 43 miles away, while circling at 6,000 feet? Then one could add the element of Cooper’s visual opportunity at a distance of 43 miles from the subject area by adding the attribute of his seat location in the aircraft. Or you could cry and bitch and biiiiiiitch about how Cooper’s seat has nothing to do with anything and steer the discussion towards whatever gives you the most boners. Be that as it may, I prefer more validated data when engaged in problem solving rather than less and abhor the addition of garbage and shit in the same. If someone wanted to research what factory made the fabric for the seat cushions in the plane, I couldn’t imagine a reason for protesting what they spend their time or perhaps expertise completing. But this thread is absolutely polluted with frustrated managers who prefer directing the efforts of others away from a rational and measured study, irrespective of the potential result. Weird. Isn’t is freaky how the question of Cooper seeing the lights of Tacoma while circling after the whining about maps and seats? For me, the small exchange about the location of Toutle, WA was a good exercise in completing something relatively complex where a bit of consensus was reached by several un-related individuals. It also illustrated what ‘attention to detail’ some people possess and I admire that trait/skill. It also exposed some bizarre loathing for the subject which I simply can’t understand. Here it is. From a radio on Low Fall to some claim not worth sourcing, where Cooper observed the lights of Tacoma while circling. Decide for yourself.

Here’s a description of the parachutes delivered to Cooper from the FBI files according to Bruce Smith’s article: “1. Civilian luxury type, tan soft cotton material outside, 26 foot while canopy inside. The parachute inside is a military parachute. The parachute has a foam pad cushion and a fray mark down the rib on the back from rubbing on metal. 2. A military backpack parachute, standard olive drab green on outside, a 28 foot white canopy on inside. He (Norman Hayden) stated that this parachute also has a foam pad cushion.” How would a skydiver take an inventory of a couple parachutes? Would it appear this vague and whuffo-ish? No manufacturer, serial numbers, model, etc. I don’t think the FBI would describe a gun as a luxury, silver handheld weapon with wooden grips. This appears to be someone doing their best with something they have never encountered before. Was the Pioneer chute more of an NB-6 clone or civilian variant which morphed and mutated over time? What is the genesis of this military, NB-6, surplus parachute? Please include your source.

As it stands presently there are two diametrically opposing answers (how surprising). mrshutter45 indicates that the type of canopy packed in the chutes is visible, but left no clue as how a layperson (code for me) could see this variation. A Pioneer chute may fail I suppose, but the aircraft was doing less than 200 knots and tens of thousands of aircrew bailed out of flaming, spinning and or inverted aircraft during WWII with a very high success rate and at greater velocities. Either way, I was asking about the differing points of appearance and how someone (code for Cooper) could look at the chutes in the photographs and make a determination as to function since they appear nearly identical to me (code for dork). airtwardo responds that the canopy contained within either of the rigs could be the same as there are no external signs to indicate what flavor is packed within. This makes me feel a little more secure since they appear so similar that I would have sworn they are nearly indistinguishable in appearance and function. Guess I can be less concerned about that booze filled night in Bangkok and that woman who carried me home. For a while there I was starting to worry about my visual interpretation skills. Boo-yah. Either way, the Amazing Farflungini is beginning to sense some uncertainty as to the type of parachutes delivered to Cooper. The Amazing Farflungini predicts the answer to the parachute’s precise nomenclature will remain a dark mystery, which in fact serves as the dilithium crystals which power the spaceship ‘Private Enterprise’ deeper and deeper into a void of random chaos and anti-logic. The Amazing Farflungini anxiously awaits the appearance of a ‘Green Tina’.

After several failed attempts asking and still being lost on the subject, I figured a couple pictures may help somewhat. There were only two backpack chutes according to the record but this thread makes it seem like there were dozens which were radically different in appearance. Perhaps that is true as well, I simply can’t tell. Since this tale has secretaries, taxi cabs and airline personnel all handling these parachutes, the parlance may be to blame for some of this. Cooper took an NB-6 or NB-6 style parachute from the supplied pool of two (2). So far this makes sense to even me. The first attachment has an image of an NB-6 on the left with the cryptic title of NB-6. The ‘other’ parachute has been variously described as a ‘sport’, ‘Pioneer’ or civilian parachute and was allegedly photographed by Bruce Smith last year, which is the image on the right of the first attachment (Pioneer ‘Sport’). Now perhaps a jumper can instantly spot a massive or obvious number of differences between these items but I simply don’t see it. They both appear to me (a non-expert) as aircrew emergency chutes. If Hayden did own the chutes Cooper used AND the chutes were identical (as Hayden indicated), THEN I would surmise that the chute Cooper grabbed was an NB-6 style rig and his choice was moot since there were two of the same breed to select. But for some reason this question is always answered with deflections and are so vague that I still can’t tell what happened. The second attachment illustrates the NB-6 and Pioneer chutes being modeled for use. Once again, I feel like one would have to be a supreme expert on the subject to identify any difference between the two from my experience level. Perhaps the difference between Sport and military rigs in 1971 was minimal in comparison to later equipment. The first civil emergency chute I put on was so thin and light that I was suspicious of some sort of joke being played on me. Does the source and type of parachutes Cooper used remain a mystery (like the seat he used) or are the pictures of the NB-6 and the Pioneer ‘Sport’ representative of Cooper’s chutes? Secondly, what are these major differences which are spoken about between the two in the photos?

Soooo….. ummm…. yeah…. Gosh…. looks like all that fancy store bought map looking ain’t worth crap roundst herst….. boah. Break down the chute selection so even a monkey can understand it. What type of parachutes were presented to Cooper? Last I recall there were two identical chutes supplied by a Mr Hayden who was photographed wearing the twin. Am I wrong here? What was the model of chute that Hayden supplied? Seems like someone wanted a military and civil chute combo to start with and just ran with that assumption. What happens if it turns out the chutes supplied were in fact the same? Some shorts are gonna fill with gold bricks I would imagine. So Tina said he put that thing on like a pro? How many chutes has Tina seen being fitted? Any? Has anyone thought to ask? Hmmm…… nope, Tina’s version already supports a pre-selected conclusion so why bother? Won’t prove nutin. Now Cooper put some thought into his chute selection? Which chute? The back one or the inoperative training chute? Hmmmmm….. guess that’s not worth weighing either. Without an OBSERVABLE behavior to record, the only way one could arrive at Cooper’s reason for selecting whatever is via mind reading. This is not a waste of time but standard research practices among those who want whatever, to succeed and cost the least while achieving that goal. Is this really that complex of an ethos? ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL (meaning no other variables), Cooper picked a chute out of a pool of TWO (50/50). This is not MY theory, it is simple, basic mathematics and nothing more. This ownership of theories and suspects is why this case is not moving any where since all roads must lead to Kenny or whoever the nom de jour may be.

After further review of your post I realized how far I ran with your initial question Robert99. The perfect storm was churning with a cross contamination of terrestrial city names and airway intersection names (MALAY and TOUTL) combined with your reference of the NAD and WGS correction datum. I believe there are 48 or 49 people who are aware of NAD and they are all related. So I jumped to the conclusion that you were modeling the Victor airway environment in some GIS. Then I went ape shit with that assumption. The mere mention of comparing NAD and WGS steered me to the conclusion that you had removed those corrections in both files and you were using the LAT/LONG from the FAA to plot the navaid’s positions in the flat file. Then I figured you digitized the Victor Airways from the ’71 and later file (separate layers) to discover some data contention between the two Mayfield and Toutle airway intersections. Am I getting far enough in left field yet? So then I figure, like I know what the hell I’m doing, that you had not made any isogonic corrections to the VORTAC compass rose which included the 3 degree delta from the SEA VORTAC at 64 DME which would have induced a 3 NMI ambiguity ellipse at Mayfield and Toutle intersections (what are the freakin odds?). Viola, just add the magnetic corrections and align both files on WGS84 and you should be good to go. Or so I thought. You can imagine my embarrassment to discover you referenced the town of Toutle and not the airway intersection. With that in mind, I’m blaming fatigue combined with an alien abduction and probing, rather than taking personal responsibility for the lack of reading comprehension.

Once again, I’m lost. But at least this ‘equation’ is much simpler than Cooper’s seat selection because there were six (6) seats to use and only two (2) parachutes. Gee Wally, how many leaps of logic will this one involve? Let’s say I was on Flight 305 and picked a parachute. If I choose the NB-6, I become experienced in something. If I pick the ‘sport’ chute I become a skydiver. Considering that I’m a whuffo, this is a quick way to gain some awesome experience with a result of being a military jumper or skydiver based upon nothing more than 50/50 chance. Hmmmm….. I still don’t get it. Ahhh….. here’s my problem….. there are no criteria for ‘selection’. Without the process which Cooper employed which guided his hand to the NB-6, how can anyone assume it was anything other than chance? (insert cricket chirps) If I go to a bar (big stretch here) and demand two beers NOW! The frazzled server may grab two mugs and two adjacent tap handles, then deliver my order. Kinda like a DB CooBeer (get it?). Now the beer I pick up will be a ‘selection’ based upon my expertise on brewing……. Right? (louder cricket chirps) So I grab and guzzle a Coors Light leaving behind a Chimay Grand Reserve. This selection indicates I was interested in the lighter and more health conscious libation over the more traditional beverage, which has been malted by the very hand of God and brewed by Vestal virgins (once). It is when I engage this mental allegory that I realize no such ‘selection’ would ever take place. For the simple reason that I like beer and virgins, but have little experience with one which I will not disclose at this time. If I were an experienced beer connoisseur, and wanted to enhance, nay optimize my experience; my selection would be somewhat more refined than demanding two beers immediately. Same with a parachute. I would have them delivered from a military base and would go so far as to plan the hijacking so that it was near a military base with aviation facilities. Then I would demand an NB-6 instead of the open ended order of two backpack chutes. Even here, there are clear signs of making a selection. What if (if here) Cooper was delivered a pair of ‘sport’ chutes instead of this mixed bag of two? How would one conclude any military experience then? What did Cooper do that a coin toss could not replicate with an accuracy of 100%? (insert deafening, bone crushing cricket chirps)

Here’s another perspective with the historical USGS chart on the top left (1977) compared to a Google satellite image (bottom left) which still needs time to cool because it is so fresh. One of the things that USGS chart reminds me of is how impossibly difficult some of the cartographic representations are to spot in real life (non Walter Mitty existence). That cross pick and shovel along with the rail lines were real neat to pick off of a map but at 360 knots and low level they were never to be seen. In fact I’d bet most can’t find them on the satellite image sitting very, very still.

I had a massive dumb attack Robert99 and think I now understand what you were asking. Buried deep in my bias, I assumed you meant the TOUTL intersection since you referenced MALAY. See how confusing those intersections used to be? Good thing I wasn’t flying…… this time. Attached is a comparison and perhaps an answer. The left is the FBI, sectional from ’71 and to the right is one from AIRNAV today. Point ‘a’ is a registration of the hamlet of Silver Lake to compare geolocations. Point ‘b’ is a wicked meander in a long forgotten rail road. Point ‘c’ is the intersection of Toutle Road and the Spirit Lake Highway which is the modern location of Toutle the unincorporated village of. Point ‘d’ which is marked as Toutle on the FBI chart was the old rail name for the stop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toutle,_Washington Hit the coordinates in that wiki file and it will take you to the old USGS named place. Is this what you were looking for? It was a good one.

Robert99, I posted some info on the FBI sectional chart (Fear and Loathing of Sectional Charts) which ID this particular chart as the First edition of the ‘New’ (present day) format, scale and grid. I’m sure you know that the intersections were also standardized to the five character format around that time as well (Lofall vs LOFAL, Cougar vs COUGA). Someone thought having a Portland Airport, VORTAC, Approach and Departure being babbled over a transceiver may result in some confusion and they were correct. As far as the intersection MALAY (nee Mayfield) which is on the 329 radial of BTG (formerly PDX) intersecting with the Astoria (AST) VOR radial of 048 in 1971 where today the same intersection name is defined by the 052 radial. Additionally the radial flown out of Seattle (SEA) was 175 and today is 178. With MALAY 64 DME from SEA that 3 degree delta would be just over 3 nautical miles of change to the terrain-centric sectional chart. Or something like that. Whacha think Robert99?

Given a choice between RobertMBlevins’ “understanding” of where Cooper was seated and the notes written, near real time by a person who had their mortal existence being threatened….. I’m picking the center seat of Row 18. Oh, that plus the source of the notes was referenced along with a screen shot and transcription which accompanied a thought process. To Orange1: What difference does Cooper’s seat make? If that simple exercise turns into a Herculean task (as it has thus far) then what expectations should be set for more germane data points? You know like, how money would drift, float or otherwise migrate to Tena (Tina) Bar? The time distance equation with drift considerations for civil airliners? Internal indications of several hundred pounds of ‘cargo’ being jettisoned? Statistical analysis of CEPs based upon meteorological and aerodynamic interplay by a falling mass with a known deceleration device? All of which has been discussed with such amazing authority, yet the stinkin seat which Cooper occupied is an utter mystery? Am I the only one who finds this equally stunning and hilarious? That’s what I’m taking from the seating exercise anyway. Collectively with all the ‘self proclaimed’ expertise on this thread, I would imagine that Bruce’s request should be filled within a short period of time, with some measurable accuracy. How can one be expected to finger Cooper when they can’t even pick his seat? So to speak, that is.

Here’s another ‘nugget’ for Bruce’s collection regarding the PAX on 305: http://www.katu.com/news/local/126750173.html?tab=video&c=y Now first person, Larry Finegold has claimed to have occupied a seat somewhere in row 6 (0:33 – 1:02). Marla is certainly responsible for bringing out a couple of these folks with her story. Too bad she was chased away from this platform. mrshutter: Tina could have been seated there. But the other ‘stories’ begin to fall apart. How does someone sit across Cooper and not notice sharing a row with a stunning blonde in a bright red uniform? In order for Tina to sit across the aisle from Cooper then the crew notes must be wrong and whoever claimed to sit across from Cooper didn’t notice Tina? It just starts to get too thick with one step downstream. This was a 1960’s vintage jet (no fans yet) and they were in the aft area and surrounded by screaming engines. I don’t know how communications would be across an aisle with Cooper yelling at Tina to go check on the parachutes.

Well….. the seating mystery continues to rage and torment my soul. I did the unthinkable and made a visit to Sluggo Monster’s website for a review and to drink deep from a well of information which has not been endlessly piddled in. So here’s the deal, if (IF) Cooper wanted Tina to sit next to him (I know I would want that now) to facilitate communications, then (THEN) how could an aisle seat be the best position? Cooper may have started the flight in the aisle seat to pass his note to Florence but once Tina entered the scene, it seems he would have occupied the center position. I say this as nothing more than a guess based upon what I would have done. Attached are some of the notes written as the crime was taking place. You can see that Cooper wanted the recipient to sit next to him. That should lower the possibilities somewhat. Then a few pages later, there is an indication that Cooper was in Row 18 and in the center seat. But damn it all to hell, no mention of what side of the aircraft. Oh well, at least there is some more info for consideration.

I’m willing to give an individual some latitude regarding saying a person was a ‘guy’ or thinking the person was a ‘man’. But there are limits which strain the boundaries of credibility and hunkyness, which must never be violated. Even in situations of extreme duress which may result in the cause and circumstance of your own demise. That’s just the way it is for manly, men. If Tina was in fact the person to carry the money and chutes on board the plane, then I have to suspend some disbelief here. That is, if this same person is expected to ‘enhance’ any description of DB in seat 18C through 18E. I’m a man. There, I said it. I have spent my life being distracted, vexed and otherwise enchanted by the opposite sex and am blissfully aware of this. But not all women are created equal. No, no. Some are so unequal as to be confused with a man or so similar in appearance, as to spark apathy amongst those who actually are men. But how is one able to measure such an attribute? Enter my ‘Scale of Femininity’ which utterly removes any doubt, as to when a man may enter a world of gender ambiguity and where it is impossible to exist or go un-noticed. This is a non-linear measure with an exponential curve and is of such value to ‘man’kind, that I have generously donated this instrument to the Public Domain. You’re welcome. I just give and give annnnd give. I think it’s only fair to say that Tina, with her elfin features, petite stature, dainty hands, blonde hair, short dress, doe-like eyes, pouting lips, delicate perfume, alabaster skin, whimsical brow and stunning legs, would not fall into the category of ‘guy’ or thinking it was a ‘man’. Never; simply never.

This research stuff can be rather dry at times but every once in a while I come across that gem that makes it all worthwhile. That’s right, mere days after the hijacking an article outlines what truly happened on Flight 305. Now it can be told, from secret archives long hidden from view and public scrutiny. Apparently when Cooper departed Seattle, he ordered two flight officers and a ‘stewardess’ into a small and ever so steamy and hot compartment, while the pilot flew to Reno. I can’t imagine what it must have been like to have been trapped in some dark confines with Tina, no doubt breathing deeply as she tries to stave off panic. But I’ll try. The reason I choose to believe this particular article should be obvious. I’m looking for the truth and this is how I imagined it would be. Well….. minus one of those flight officers and making me the other would have been how I imagine it, but this will do for now.

It is really interesting to read all the discourse, confusion and mayhem which results from supposition or careless reporting. Sure is fortunate that the protocols of research are so thoroughly respected on this thread; can anyone imagine what would happen if someone was to add pure BS into the mix? I simply feel faint from the very mention. Thank goodness this is an intellectual sanctuary and not a breeding ground for refugees from ‘A Clockwork Orange’ or ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’. So now the seat is 18E. Presumably the center seat thus allowing for the beguiling Tina to sit close to Cooper and light cigarettes and communicate discretely. It’s been like the Spinning Teacups with people behind, to the left and right of Cooper dependent upon what version one chooses to believe. If you don’t ‘like’ a version then call the individual and see if you can brow beat them into changing their answer. Apparently this has made Dan Cooper comic books appear in Shemya in 1951, so it has been tested. I just read the report and note the data……. yawwwwwnnnnnn. Oh no!!! I found another source for Cooper’s seat, what Oh what, is one to do? Cooper was in seat 18C, an aisle seat, according to living witness and former FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach. Here you can see for yourself from (13:55 – 14:05): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7taFf09hofI Well…… now what? Several LIVING witnesses are contradicting each other, FBI files are confusing and frightening and individual ‘pet theories’ must be supported with data which must be deemed superior by unknown certification organizations. All the before mentioned techniques of sorting this has just crapped the bed…… again. What’s the battle plan here? Call Tom Kaye and confirm that he didn’t misquote the seat? Call Geoff Gray and confirm that he didn’t misread the FBI files? Call the History Channel cameraman and see if he may have accidentally pressed the ‘speech/motion distortion’ button which made Ralph say and touch seat 18C? Obviously no one should take the source material at face value (never have before), no I say, it must be suppressed and edited until it matches a pre-selected conclusion (as is the norm). It really drives home how careless, sloppy or flat out nefarious actions regarding information can damage the trail to the truth beyond repair or recovery. I cherish the fine, upstanding conduct which has proceeded each and every carefully thought out comment on this thread. The DBC thread is where leaps of logic are unheard of, douchebaggery extinct and BS held in check so well, that only the scarcest of dribble is ever detected by the most critical of eyes. Well done, well done indeed.

This winner of this year’s ‘Miss Communication Award for Today’ goes to…….. Wait for it…….. little longer…….. yep. Are you kidding me RobertMBlevins? I quote a source from your ‘latest’ comment (which YOU linked) where this ‘new witness’ describes the person who carried the money on board as a man and you got…. and apparently are…… still confused about this?! Did or…. do or…… have…… you ever, read anything that you link, attach or otherwise communicate to the thread before posting? For it appears like random acts of technology are getting through to my computer. If Jerry Thomas, DID NOT supply a source, THEN how on Earth could you have thought I was quoting his non-existent source?! I mean really. Talk about hoisted by one’s own petard. See why this thread is embarrassing? New secret witness indeed.

georger, That looks like the best representation of a 727 akin to 305’s that I have ever seen. But I have ZERO knowledge of the seating configuration for any commercial passenger carrier. Attached are some more examples from different airlines. All the equipment I worked around was modular and unitized (just like the PAX airlines) and could be configured many ways. You could have a galley between two lavs or eliminate a lav etc.

No RobertMBlevins, I meant RobertMBlevins posted that article. (see attachment) Why is this always such a struggle? Would you be so kind as to quote the source you ‘believe’ that Jerry Thomas supplied? That is usually a good way to cross check things while doing a sanity check. Some people rarely, IF EVER, post anything resembling a source.