Robert99

Blevins should note that the stairs in the Treat Williams movie did not rebound all the way up. This strongly indicates that the aircraft was going quite a bit slower than NWA 305. In the FBI tests using the NWA 305 aircraft and flight crew, when the sled was released, the stairs rebounded giving the same indication of a "pressure bump" that the flight crew had noticed during the hijacking. This indicates that the aircraft was going about the same airspeed as in the Cooper jump, that the stairs had been deflected downwards about the same as in the Cooper jump, etc.. There are pictures available somewhere on these FBI tests. I'm not aware of any sources giving the exact airspeed in the FBI tests when the jumper walked down to the bottom step. He walked back up the stairs and didn't jump. All of the above has been discussed endlessly on this thread before. And no doubt it will be back in another couple of months. Robert99

Blevins, Surely you are aware that Ralph Himmelsbach's book describes a USAF jumper walking down to the last step on the stairs. What is the source of your recurring claim that Cooper had to go through a 2 by 3 foot hole when he jumped? Robert99

I don't know about the experience part. The FBI first thought the hijacker had a fair amount of jump experience, then later Larry Carr discounted that idea. I disagree, but on that point people do have differing opinions. The hijacker didn't know what chutes he was going to get, and yet he worked with them as if he knew what he was doing. The best witnesses to the jump are the crew. Rataczak's testimony has been pretty consistent on that regarding the bump, occillations, door indicator light coming on, then off for a second, then on for good, with no more incidents all the way to Reno. That's the best evidence available that the crew was correct in saying they knew WHEN Cooper jumped, but not where he landed. (Depends on when he pulled the ripcord) I think the flight path/sim research is a great idea, and kudos to those involved. The only thing I pointed out was that without knowing HOW the FBI came to the conclusions they did (flight path/map), then it's difficult to discount those conclusions, especially if any NEW conclusions are substantially different than the originals. A mile or two might not make that much difference, but if someone says he jumped over the Columbia or the flight passed near Tina Bar, then you have to know the parameters on the FBI's conclusions, in order to support this theory. Like you, I would like to know who created the famous FBI flight map, because you would like to go to the source. Find out what people were responsible for it, and what data they used to make it. Blevins, You just did an excellent job of ducking the question. My reading of Mrshutter's question is that he is asking YOU how you came to your conclusions since you don't have a baseline, any data, no witnesses, or any personal experience with parachutes. Robert99

Blevins, There is an old saying that goes (roughly) like this: Normal people learn from their own experiences, smart people learn from the experiences of others, and dumb people don't learn from either. What have you learned from your experiences with sending things to the FBI, media, etc.? Just a thought. Robert99

Atmospheric pressure is not a factor in this. Robert99 You said you didn't know what 'HG' stood for in those Columbia river level readings. I gave you a very possible answer. How do you know that's not what it means? Have you examined the gear they use? Don't you think barometic pressure might be a simple-to-obtain and important piece of data for the river watchers, especially if it dropped to a record low and a severe storm is predicted off the Pacific Coast? Of course it is. It's probably either that, or some type of presence-of-mercury measurement. But if it's done electronically, this probably lets out mercury. I can't believe you deleted your entire post about it in an effort to make your question disappear. Robert99 asks: Go to the source. Email Brian Ingram and ask him. Blevins, You are barking up the wrong tree. I still don't know what "HG" means with respect to the river gage. In meterology, atmospheric pressure is measured in "inches of mercury", pounds per square inch, millibars, atmospheres, and other such conventions. And of course you know that the chemical abbreviation for mercury is "hg". Altimeter settings are routinely given in inches of mercury with "29.92 in hg" being sea level standard pressure in the western world but other countries may use other conventions. If the people who are responsible for the Vancouver gage need meteorological information, all they have to do is call the National Weather Service Office at the Portland International Airport which is just across the Columbia River from the gage. They can get everything they need at that NWS office. As Georger has already pointed out, the Brian Ingram source has problems of its own. It has been unproductive for me in the past. Robert99

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator? he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path" he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth. Check the FAA web page for manuals that are devoted to navigation or have sections that are devoted to navigation. There is nothing mysterious about this subject but the manuals will help you understand the factors that are involved and the importance of each. At least some of these FAA manuals can probably be downloaded for free. If you get interested in flight test manuals, as used in the military, let me know and I can refer you to some first class manuals that also can be downloaded for free. Robert99 Thanks 99. I believe Hominid has several manuals, but not the ones you are referring to. I'm sure I'll be asking you questions through out the project once we are up and running again. I'm not sure if you seen this video I made (different from first one) I fly your J-3 Cub Piper around KPDX http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFBLdyhwIZg Mrshutter, Thanks for the youtube.com video. I don't know how I missed it but I had never seen it before. Robert99

This post has been deleted but will be reposted tomorrow (I hope). While reading the posted version, I realized I need to give it still another reading. In the meantime, does anyone have any information available on the position of the money when it was found. That is, which way were the bills pointing, were the bundles side by side, etc.. Robert99

Atmospheric pressure is not a factor in this. Robert99

Here I go again. There are at least two implied assumptions in the following. First, water runs downhill. Second, gravity has essentially been constant for the past 50 years or so. A few days back, I asked if anyone on the thread could explain to me some of the language in the US Army Corp of Engineers data as related to the river gage at Vancouver, WA. Since no replies were forthcoming, I will make my own interpretations and explain them as things proceed below. After considering the Vancouver gage data, I will then proceed to a second point on the river and discuss both points further. The US Army COE data to be discussed here subtitled "Stage Height (FT);Daily (24 Hourly);Processed;;Max of Day;HG". My interpretation of the above is that the data was probably recorded by instrumentation and then processed electronically to determine the maximum elevation of the Colunbia River at the gage that day. The data appears to have been recorded on an hourly basis and the river height is listed in feet. I have no idea what the "HG" means. After the subtitle, the following information is provided: "Gage Zero: + 1.8 NGVD29/MSL or + 3.2 City of Portland, or + 5.3 NAVD88 FT". I will only consider the "Gage Zero: + 1.8 NGVD29/MSL" portion of the above. My interpretation of this is that gage zero is 1.8 feet above MSL on the NGVD29 datum. Therefore, to express the gage reading in feet above sea level (ASL), 1.8 feet must be SUBSTRACTED from the gage reading. The money was found at Tena Bar on Sunday, February 10, 1980. The FBI did their initial digging on Tuesday, February 12, 1980. So keep this second date in mind when considering the river level during the FBI dig. The maximum gage reading in Vancouver on February 12, 1980, was 5.300 feet. Substracting 1.8 feet from this value gives the water level as being 3.5 feet above sea level (ASL). Keep in mind that there is a 40 foot deep shipping channel just a few feet south of this gage, so the river has plenty of water in it. On his web page, Tom Kaye gives the GPS coordinates of the location of the money found at Tena Bar as 45.717888 degrees North Latitude and 122.7595000 degrees West Longtitude. With all the significant digits showing, Tom either used a Differential-GPS to measure the coordinates or identified the exact find point and then located it on an online map and used the software to determine the exact coordinates. I have a "seamless" National Geographic Society topographical software program for the state of Washington. Using this program set to the NAD83/WGS84 coordinate system, I located the exact point cited by Tom Kaye. At that money find point, the software program gave an elevation of 13 feet above sea level (ASL) according to the NAVD29 datum. The gage height and money find height above sea level can now be directly compared. However, there is still one other point that must be considered first. It should be noted that it is slightly more than 107 miles from the Vancouver gage to the Pacific Ocean (which will be considered to be sea level, it is not as simple as you may have thought!) so the river water level will descend about one foot ever 20 miles or so depending on the gage level. Since Tena Bar is approximately 10 miles from the Vancouver gage, the water level there would be about 6 or more inches lower than at the gage. Using this 0.5 feet as a constant and the money find level of 13 feet above sea level, the height on the gage at Vancouver can now be determined for the water to reach the money at 13 feet ASL. It is necessary for the water level at the gage to be 13.5 feet ASL in order for any impact on the money at Tena Bar. Since the gage zero is at 1.8 feet ASL, the gage reading must be 11.7 feet or higher for the river water to reach the money at Tena Bar. On January 15-17, 1980, the river level was measured at up to 12.9 feet on the gage. The MINIMUM river level on those dates were only a very few inches less. Prior to the above dates, the most recent dates for the river to reach 11.7 feet or higher on the gage were in December 1977. CONCLUSIONS: 1. If Duane Weber threw a bag of money in the Columbia River in September 1979, it is very unlikely that it would still be around in mid-January 1980 at the high water mark. 2. If Duane Weber buried money near the Columbia water line in September 1979, it would probably have been at about 6 to 8 feet ASL and nowhere close to the 13 foot ASL elevation where the Tena Bar money was found. Robert99

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator? he is neither from my understanding. I trust his intelligence as well as his knowledge of the "known flight path" he did extensive weather detailing all the way down the path which will probably take me an hour to upload into the system. we want to be as accurate as we can. this is from one of many emails back and forth. Check the FAA web page for manuals that are devoted to navigation or have sections that are devoted to navigation. There is nothing mysterious about this subject but the manuals will help you understand the factors that are involved and the importance of each. At least some of these FAA manuals can probably be downloaded for free. If you get interested in flight test manuals, as used in the military, let me know and I can refer you to some first class manuals that also can be downloaded for free. Robert99

Is Hominid a pilot and/or navigator?

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo, Robt99, and others. IMHO. Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft. Robert99 up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the map for the FBI?? Mrshutter, Next Wednesday, March 13th, will start my fourth year on this thread and I have not seen any agreement at all on the flight path. Take a look at the times and locations on the so-called "FBI" maps. With the airliner flying at a constant speed of about 3 miles per minute, would it cover 3 miles in one minute and 6 miles in the very next minute? It would have to double its speed for the second minute. As Sluggo long ago pointed out, there is a minute missing from the times on those maps. What happened to that minute? There is a simple answer to the above questions and it is not nice. And I can guarantee you that no airliner would have flown a segmented circle around the west side of Portland as represented on that map. Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps? To make a long story short, the times and locations on the FBI maps are not believable. Robert99 agreed, I was aware of the time issues from almost the starting point, and the missing minute. this is the reason I would like to see if the FBI map will line up with my simulation. once this has been determined, we will try other options. my project has been grounded due to computer issues with my flight yoke system. I'm in the process of buying another computer in order to get the project running again. "Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps?" this is another example the simulator can check....from my stand point with the simulator, the drop zone area is pretty small from the air flying around as they show? the zig zags starting from Lake Merwin down, very confined space IMO. has the FBI ever said anything about the time issues, map vs transcripts? I'm not aware of any comment from the FBI on the time or map issues. Also remember that there is a map error on what underlies V-23 from the old Mayfield Intersection to the present day Battleground VORTAC. When you get ready to do some timed flights from Seattle to south of Portland, the intended cruise speed at 10,000 feet was 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed. That would have to be corrected to Knots True Air Speed and the winds aloft of about 26 Knots from 225 degrees (with respect to the map grid lines) would have to be entered into this to give the Ground Speed. And, of course, the Ground Speed is what is important in this navigation problem. And you will have to do some precise calculations since every minute represents about three miles over the ground. If the quality of the data were better, I would be willing to state that there was no way that the airliner could be at the location south of Portland at the specified time unless it had taken a "short cut" around the west side of Portland from about the old Mayfield Intersection. Robert99

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo, Robt99, and others. IMHO. Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft. Robert99 up to this point I thought everyone agreed that the FBI flight path map was pretty accurate? nobody knows who made the map for the FBI?? Mrshutter, Next Wednesday, March 13th, will start my fourth year on this thread and I have not seen any agreement at all on the flight path. Take a look at the times and locations on the so-called "FBI" maps. With the airliner flying at a constant speed of about 3 miles per minute, would it cover 3 miles in one minute and 6 miles in the very next minute? It would have to double its speed for the second minute. As Sluggo long ago pointed out, there is a minute missing from the times on those maps. What happened to that minute? There is a simple answer to the above questions and it is not nice. And I can guarantee you that no airliner would have flown a segmented circle around the west side of Portland as represented on that map. Also, could the airliner have gotten to the point south of Portland, as stated in the "FBI Notes", at the claimed time if he had stayed on the centerline of V-23 or made the circle west of Portland as represented on the maps? To make a long story short, the times and locations on the FBI maps are not believable. Robert99

Degree of uncertainty is due to analysis by Sluggo, Robt99, and others. IMHO. Georger, you are certainly correct in stating that there is uncertainty in both the time and location at which Cooper jumped. This is obvious from just a casual look at the so-called "FBI" maps. Who worked up those maps for the FBI is unknown, and I sometimes wonder if they even apply to NWA 305 in the first place. Maybe they apply to another aircraft. Robert99

Jo, When will your book be out and what is your percentage of the new unreality show? Robert99

DUH! Robert99 I did NOT say military paratroopers could not have made the jump - but that smoke jump training is a more likely senario. With you there is NO gray line - it is black or white and nothing in between. In 1971 - a 45 plus Cooper had to have received some kind of training - military or smokejumper. The private entities were througly checked out and NO Cooper. That leave military or smokejumpers or perhaps a washed out wannabe who did not make the grade! BUT, got the training and it was easy in those days to use aliases. No way to check the backgrounds the way they do today! AWOL Navy dishwasher in The Dalles makes a GOOD candidate for this. Did the dishwasher end up running errands for jumpers? Did he exchange labor to learn how to jump - NO license required. Was he a washed out smokejumper wannabe. Perhaps he was in training and they learned he had a problem and a record and sent him packing. Perhaps he was bitter about this...because he fell in love with WA and the boys were his buddies...first normal life he had ever experienced. Went into Spokane and got drunk as hell and when he left he vowed he would be back - and so he did many yrs later. There was an outstanding warrant for him in CA and he went back and did his time...he had been on the run for for several yrs. When he was released from SanQuentin and Folsom - his youth was gone and he was washed out. The best job an excon - well they didn't exist! It was 1958 so in 2 yrs he ends up back in prison...and then thinks he can run from his past by changing his name. In 1962 - John C. Collins was his new life and again he sought out the life he wanted. He was an old washed up excon - but, he had met someone he knew in WA and he started a NEW venture (in association with the old friend)only to screw-up again. He could NOT escape his past - he was an ex-con and in the 60's who hired an excon???? ASK yourself that question - he had enough knowledge and skills, but not as a jumper, so who would hire him and for what? Go where I have been and hear the stories I heard and you will know the anwers. The FBI looked in all the right places - they just missed one - the WASH-OUTS! Mostly no one knew the location or the real names of the wash-outs. Now you know the rest of the story - will the FBI verify this or diss it completely? NO one wants to Admit they missed their target! Jo, You are wasting YOUR time trying to con me with such BS. Robert99

Jo, My suggestion is that you get a good night's sleep. Robert99

Not FACTS! Not one fact in your story about your suspect PUT HIM ON THAT PLANE. Plain and simple. The limited training your suspect had - does NOT put him on the plane. Smoke training makes a better 1971 skyjacking suspect! U can not make your suspect be who U want him to be. Tracking Cooper is difficult and U have to track him or you loose. Go north from the Basket and trek the rails to find the clues! Go due North and follow the light to 1772. This is a riddle full of clues. You might have to reverse them or catch them as you go. In the mean time I will weave a basket to sell on the farm. One can prepare for a position and still loose by disqualification. I forgot Jo doesn't make jokes or use riddles- she can't sing a note or carry a tune. She also thinks in segments with no connecting dots. Did she finally connect the dots? Did she really have Cooper all along? Jo, Your allegations that military trained paratroopers have "limited training" is beyond laughable. And you don't have any evidence whatsoever that Duane Weber had any smoke jumper training or anything else related to the hijacking. Robert99

Georger, Go to the URL listed in post #41345, click on the resources tab at the top, and then the Aircraft Tire Databook in the middle of the next page. This should get you to the 24 page booklet in question. Robert99

99, what is the outside diameter of the 727-100 main wheel (Cooper plane) ? Goodyear chart attached says 49 or 50 inches. But is that full OD or just rim-to-rim? I need the full outside OD. You have got me on this. The tires in the picture you attached do NOT seem to be 4 feet in diameter. However, the metal rim does seem to be about 17 inches in diameter. If you are doing something where the airplane is still on the ground, then it is the "rolling radius" of the wheel that you need. I'll see if I can find more information on this. Robert99 Georger, go to http://www.goodyearaviation.com/resources/pdf/db-airdatabook.pdf and download this 24 page booklet. Hopefully, it will include everything you are looking for. Robert99

Robert 99 replies with: [BLUE]JO WEBER STATES EMPHATICALLY: Does anyone remember when Sluggo came to see me - I showed him the knife at that time. Yes, the residue is in the area one folds the knife into - NOT on the BLADE. A knife is a knife to me. The knife was NOT extraodinarIly long, but old and older than the other 2 knives he had....very very old. The other 2 knives I know the source of because I bought one of them for him. The other he had when he married me - supposedly a gift from a step child or ex wife. This KNIFE did not come into my home until the OTHER STUFF did when he made a trip to retrieve whatever it was he kept in that saftey deposit box in Omaha (at least I think it was Omaha) and one which required he have his ID for John C. Collins - an ID he went to extreme measures to acquire in 1990 - approx 10 yrs from the time he opened the box in 1980. Changing Story? What about this story has changed? Perhaps the wording or clarity. Remember when Sluggo came - that is the first time I showed the knife to anyone beside family or friends - not sure I showed it to anyone else, but I made mention of the old knife with a hole in it. I tested the knife when I had it out - the hole does NOT go all the way thru. I took Sluggo at his word and never considered the knife significant until I saw that picture on the WebSleuths day before yesterday. Seeing the ropes and how they frayed and the color of them - yea, I freaked and went looking for the knife. I had a hard time finding it - now how significant is that![/BLUE] Jo, Are you claiming that you didn't know until two days ago that the canopy that Cooper cut up was pink? In the seven years that you have been here on DZ.com did you ever see pictures of a pink canopy posted by Larry Carr or others? Or pictures of a pink canopy in the Seattle FBI office with Larry Carr telling that this is the cut-up reserve which were on a cable TV program? Or a pink canopy being discussed by FBI personnel with the media? Did you ever take a look at the FBI page on the Cooper hijacking? Finally, are you claiming that you didn't take a look at Tom Kaye's page until two years after he set it up? Jo, as far as I am concerned, your claims are simply not believable. Blevins is not your problem. Your problem is your own ever changing story. Robert99

Jo, The above is typical of your changing stories. I, and probably others, mentioned several years ago that Cooper had to routinely carry a pocket knife since he did not have any advance knowledge that he would need to cut shroud lines to attach the money bag to himself. He could not have forseen that. I have not seen the disssing of the knife comments that you refer to. Also, I have not seen you mentioning a knife until the past week or so. You mention a "long blade" knife. Why do you need a "long blade" knife to cut something as simple as a shroud line? A standard two or three inch pocket knife would easily get the job done. It appears to me that Jo Weber, a well known Mrs. Cooper wannabe, is the one who is duplicating the knife story. Robert99

Easily. Clearance would be no problem. 377 377, Not so fast here. The instant Cooper's weight comes off those stairs they are going to start upwards. So could he have cleared the end of the stairs before being smacked by the stairs? Not very likely. Also, everyone seems to forget that in the FBI flight tests (same aircraft, same people flying it), when the weighted boxes were slid down the stairs and off the end is when the stairs rebounded with the same pressure fluctation that the crew reported during the hijacking. Robert99

How intriguing. What's your theory as to why a wash down theory isn't realistic? I'm not attempting humor or sarcasm; it seems to me that "how the money got there" ...given the speculated ways...has not been definitively determined and agreed upon. Oddly.

Blevins, I have never had a washdown theory. I simply don't think such a theory is realistic. Robert99