georger

You are trying to convert the wrong people! Your debate is with the people who developed the FBI fp and those people are all dead! You are wasting your time, quite frankly. There is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER IN FACTS, that ties the money find to the flight path. The tail does not wag the dog, R99!

Exactly. The 'points' are radar plots?

JAG asks: Perhaps this is silly question, but does anyone know or has anyone ever asked if the FBI took/has "crime scene" photographs from inside of N467US once they landed in Reno and examined the plane? I know there are pictures of the inside of the plane from the sled test in early 72, but was really wondering if they had pictures of row 18, the aft stairs, the controls for lowering the stairs ? Is this something that TK or Geoffrey Gray could confirm based on their access to the FBI files on the case ? If they exist, could FOIA be made for them or would it be included in the current monthly releases ? Good important questions. It was Gray and Carr who have done extensive interviews with Reno agents (retired). Gray was very protective of his information. I think he knows more than he has written or released. Maybe Darren should interview Gray about how the plane was canvassed by Reno agents, their dog(s)?, what type of dogs they were ... 'the dogs ate the lunches and created a total mess' ? ... and there are several long posts somewhere early in the thread about what Agents did and how Agents handled the Reno situation. Reno played a very important role in this case because of how they handled the Reno boarding and forensic examination.

well! I'm honored. I guess that confirms my prior remarks were received and logged. 73s R99. ..... .. The former manager may still be alive? He was fun to talk to and remembered everything in detail ... Had a long career. I think Darren would love talking to him ? Might make a nice podcast? Himmelsbach had even flown in and out of his airport ... we actually discussed the people who were flying in/out of private airports that night ... several came into Troutdale and stayed put until 305 had passed PDX. He kept Troutdale closed until 305 was gone ... he had comments about the WX that night. Great informative discussion.

R99 posts: As far as I can tell, no one has asked any member of the flight crew (or even Tina) this simple question. Did you pass Portland on the east side, west side, or did you fly directly over Portland International Airport? Robert99 6/9/22 The list of names could be expanded to include a whole list of people that had direct knowledge at the time! They have (or were) never asked either! It is impossible to play 'catch-up' in 2022. No serology done on the cigarette butts when the FBI still had them. Serology did exist in pre-dna 1971 and crime investigations regularly used it - I grew up in that era. Same for the cup. We might at least have Cooper's blood type ? . . . By 1980 however the Lab is actually examining sand types found between the newly discovered bills - so somebody had his or her head screwed on straight in a small piece of the DB Cooper case. Robert or EU or Kaye or Carr could call Tina up and ask her! Or any of a very long list of other people involved in the Cooper case. * I asked the former Manager of the Troutdale Airport R99's very question years ago - he knew the answer. I posted that info but it did not count. You must be a 'celebrity' to have any credibility in this case! The Manager of the Troutdale Airport said 'west side of PDX' based on conversations he had with the FBI and managers at PDX - The Manager of the Troutdale Airport stayed on duty until 305 had passed out of WA airspace. He said 305 was restricted from flying over PDX ...

I guess there is a market for this kind of thing, and people like Ulis. It's foreign to my whole experience, almost. EU strikes me as a 'wnnabe' who is in completely over his head, and may be sinking. Maybe his friends can save him from being: "one of the worlds leading experts on the DB Cooper case". Before this he tried poker card shows but made millions? - stock brokering? - running for Congress - selling shoes ? Maybe his next gig will be as "one of the worlds leading experts on the DB Cooper case" in the Ace Hardware paint Dept? I dont know what else to say. He needs a shave ? All of his videos are very tedious to have to wade through. Bring ten cups of coffee ...

It has turned into a busy day here so will post tonight about this, including lab reports, Tom's work, ... anything that could connect money with the Washougal Basin. Note I said basin because: all FBI reports I have speak about the money 'potentially' having landed in the 'tributaries' of the Washougal vs the Washougal itself. Moreover, only some chain of flood events could have brought the money bag to the Washougal for a later deposit in the Columbia... so this is all speculation. But there are no lab reports (Kaye or FBI) that were able to link the money to the Washougal Basin but did link the money to "Columbia River Water". My sense is the FBI jumped on the Washougal as a diversion lacking anything better (more concrete) to do. But all Lab reports found only Columbia River sands and nothing connected to Washougal geology. It's unfortunate the money wasn't recovered at Tina Bar !

Im not sure who came up with the Wash Theory first - but my sense is it began with the Bradley report. Let me check dates ... H instructed his agents to tell the press the money had come from the Washougal. (I have that from H,JT, and 2 agents who were at the excavation). I came to believe that H actually believed this account. .......... he actually said to me, quote: "what else would it be ...?" keep in mind some of the agents are still living and I can communicate with them still ... I asked Schreuder if he believed the Washougal theory and he laughed and said "No" (laughter). "But thats what we were told told to say by Ralph". funny. BTW, Keep in mind Tom may have a different take on this .? My sense is when the money was discovered in 1980 the FBI was hard pressed to explain it - the FBI doesnt like being put in that position so they asked for expert advice (quick). I have not found any agent who worked the excavation who believed in the Washougal theory. Dorwin believes in the dredging theory. He has swayed me ... with reservations ?

interesting ... I wonder where Carr gets Washougal from this?

I see no reason not to print this - from the BRADLEY REPORT discussing options for money having arrived at Tina Bar: Mr. BRADLEY advised the only likely river feeding the Columbia River within the above described drop zone that would be capable of moving several bundles of money or a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River would be the Washougal River. A logical time, if the money came down the Washougal, would have been during the December 2, 1977 Washougal flood when parts of the river were approximately ten feet over the normal winter flood stage. There are several other streams that feed the Columbia River upstream from the FAZIO Brothers’ farm; however, due to size, or the degree of slope of the streams, it is unlikely that a small package would have made it to the Columbia. It is also unlikely that a small package would have passed through Lacamas Lake down stream to the Columbia. Mr. BRADLEY stated that based on the three feet per second speed of the Columbia River, if a small package entered the Columbia River at Washougal, Washington and floated in the main stream of the river to the FAZIO brothers’ farm, a distance approximately thirty miles, it would take 14.7 hours. This is assuming that the package did not tumble along the bottom of the river or get caught on any snags. Mr. BRADLEY stated that numerous streams feed the Columbia downstream from the FAZIO Brothers farm including the Lewis River which would move a small package to the Columbia; however, it is not possible that it would move upstream to the area the money was located. Mr. BRADLEY provided a topographical map which includes the above described area. and from the PALMER REPORT: Professor PALMER displayed a U.S. Geological Survey- Topographical Map, Bridal Veil Washington - Oregon Section, which reflected a twelve mile cross section of the drainage basin for the Washougal River. It is from this area, the Professor felt the money likely originated from. He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?] Professor PALMER concluded by saying he had been studying beach sediments since 1951 and his conclusions are based upon his experience in this field since that time. Professor PALMER furnished a diagram of the beach sediment profile as it was found at Tena Bar. A Xeroxed copy of this profile is attached. SO: we have a chain of references to the Washougal starting with some Soderlind comment ... which starts and builds the case for a Washougal Washdown Theory.

BTW. someone has asked why I have the crazy (ridiculous) icon I have at this forum - it was chosen to piss Jo Weber off! She hated this icon.............. maybe I should change it?

Do we have thee 302 that references (proves) Soderlind's alleged comment, Larry says he found in the files? Im a little curious myself - when did Soderlind make this comment and in what context?

rolled my eyes... funny. But again, Darren did a good job - that kid has talent! Why do I think new searching in the Washougal may start soon? Waste of time? ... ?? BTW if people dont know. Jerry Thomas lost his wife recently. I may try to call him tomorrow to catch up ...

We had a case in my State where a foreigner murdered a jogger. Vid taps of him stalking the women in his car surfaced. At trial he suddenly claimed it was others traveling with him who killed the woman! This went around and around for weeks. The vids tapes were good - usable. I finally got on the phone and called the lead prosecutor and told him to look for the number of occupants in the car - in all of the vid tapes! The prosecutor replied: why of course! we never thought of that... they re-examined the tapes and saw only one person in the car. They presented that evidence the next day and it saved weeks of Courtroom filings/antics ...

When Carr says the FBI "did everything in its power" to find DB Cooper, he likewise admits the FBI failed to take care of its "evidence"! That is a little bit like a mother saying after the fact: "I did everything in my power to protect my baby, except I forgot to turn off the bathtub water." ! Fact: Carr is not a forensically trained agent. Science is not his strong suit or his first inclination - pounding the streets and interviewing is. He said this over and over multiple times. He says as an afterthought, the FBI screwed up and mishandled the Cooper evidence. Just as he may be screwing up the evidence and the opportunities for hard forensic evidence - today. Tom Kaye is not a large lab! Eric Ulis is not a forensic expert of any kind! But Darren did a good job of keeping 'evidence' in the interview, and he kept returning to it. I doubt Kaye or Carr will come here to answer any questions or have dialogue. He would go to Shutter's site first. Still Carr is to be congratulated for opening the Cooper case up to the public at all. Carr brought up the '76 Conference. Where do we go from here. Nobody apparently recommended falling back on better forensics ....... to develop leads! In spite of the fact there have always been supremely competent forensic people at Quantico who could have made recommendations - they were not included in the conversation. And except for Tom Kaye today, forensics is still playing a minor role today. When are these people ever going to learn! ?

NEW: "Silver nitrate imparts different functions on bacteria depending upon its concentration. At lower concentration it induced synthesis of nanoparticles, whereas at higher concentrations it induced cell death." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768641/ As per Carr, if the tie was treated with silver nitrate as was some of the money, looking for finger prints, very likely that killed or altered any dna on the tie... silver nitrate is toxic to dna molecules. Its interesting to me that the one dna sample the FBI claims to have was sensitive enough to show multiple donors but only partials? This tie seems to be the one piece of Cooper evidence left in spite of defects it may have as a forensic tool ? MONEY IN WASHOUGAL ? Tom Kaye looked at three bills for any sign of contact with Washougal geology and found nothing. The FBI Lab did something similar and reported only sands/particles related to Columbia region river water - see Palmer report.

Listened to Schaefer's interview of Larry Car. Thought it was a good interview and more in depth than expected. I wish Carr would come here for questions but assume he will only go with his friend Eric Ulis at Ulis' private Facebook Group. Ulis of course does not allow people he does not like to participate in that group! That is a mistake on Carr's part for many-many reasons! Let me get to specifics: 1. Nothing on paper vs rubber bands on the money. I hope Carr would finally clear that up but I guess not .... 2. To me Carr represents a clear middle ground on the Cooper case. He stressed only 'actionable' information. Again I see this as part of his middle ground practical approach. Which I agree with ... my bias. 3. Darren mentioned Tom's diatom work - obviously Carr didnt know much about it. But Carr stresses he believes in a Washougal Washdown option, which I had never heard him emphasize before. He mentioned an early FBI interview with one of the pilots saying they were east of V23 when the bump happened, which is interesting. This may be where Himmelsbach got his strong belief (with Jerry Thomas) in the Washougal theory. I had no idea Carr subscribes to it too. Carr's new report on this may stir a new search for bones in the Washougal? Then several things clicked for me, I had never connected Spring floods in the Washougal with Tom finding "spring time diatoms on the money:. Is there a connection? Maybe Himmelsbach was on to something after all ? Maybe new work for TK ... new dots to try and connect? Interesting side note to Carr's interview I had never considered before. 4. DNA. Cigarette butts and hair sample gone. 'Tie offers too many dna options' - too many people handled it ? That's a new on on me. Carr leaves the impression that he really doesn't know too much about dna or genetic science. I urged Carr at Dropzone (2008?) to not give up on dna science. He evidently did not take it or me seriously! Carr needs to sit down with a good dna forensic expert and have a conversation, to explain Carr what options are actually left in 2022 - a topic Eric Ulis knows zilch about! A topic Tom Kaye may not be fully current on! Carr could find somebody in private industry who could summarize the options still available to the FBI for genetic testing of the tie - or Carr could ask an expert at Quantico. Experts in both places switch back and forth regularly as employment opportunities change! Its obvious to me Carr never thought dna was important or timely. Maybe the issue needs to be updated and addressed again, seriously. It is rumored Kaye has two dna samples from the tie left that were never tested? What happened to those? Or should we just let this whole issue slide through the cracks again like the cigarette butts and hair sample did? You only get so many chances in Life to correct past mistakes! Good interview. Thought provoking.

wow! This could be crucial... I dearly hope you do publish your research and Ckret reads it and responds. This is all timely. ............... has great potential!

Cooper would have been trapped had the stairs not opened. He banked everything on that. If his bomb was not real then what happens when they land at Reno . . . ? R99 makes a point that Cooper might have been familiar with other versions of the 727 but not commercial 727's? That might explain Cooper asking the cockpit to lower the stairs first. Now he must fabricate a container for the money and his chutes had no D rings! Its one problem after another for Cooper. I think much is going to depend on Cooper's dna or some other piece of forensic evidence TK or someone else can trace. I think Ulis is useless in this whole matter and may be complicating everything for everyone! People must find a way to work around these social media 'heroic insiders' who claim special knowledge/insight.

Thanks...

Tacoma ... its part of a series of exchanges that could indicate Cooper was a traveler... or had traveled in WA and MN ... maybe as part of a job ? Dont forget Cooper also says he's been to MN - nice country. Cooper also seems familiar with 'airports' - small vs large. He knows the 727 (and other aircraft)? He knows airspace - countries. He knows about Cuba as a hijacking hub. His mention of the right plane in the right place and time indicates he is able to search hijacking options in different places, over time. He may have the habits of a traveler based on the particle list. He asks if its a 727 coming at Portland. He is processing a lot of information from diverse sources in space and time. One stew described him as 'disheveled looking' - has been traveling? And the list goes on . . . a passenger said his cloths didn;t match? In today's airport he might stand out as unique with a mission, nervous, alone, and suspicious. That might get him attention he does not want, and he said he was very concerned there were air marshals on the plane! In today's world he might be spotted and questioned - and detained. Was his bomb armed while standing in the airport at Portland? .......................... he is suspicious in today's world in any airport!

Brand new subject. This is NOT an announcement but, several long time Cooper fans are rather serious about starting a brand new Cooper discussion forum. A stripped down version. Just discussions, only a few general threads, no Vault or large archive ....... something devoted to discussion(s). Rules of conduct "strictly" enforced. One of the people is a long time higher level school teacher who has years of experience handling people and discussions - I told him I would join if it happens. Well will see .................... it could fail the first week ............ who knows! Might be fun. Lets see what happens ....

yes, his failure to calculate the range/fuel is curious - not sure what it means. This should have been automatic/elementary for him ?

Some of his money was found (landed) in Washington ... that is a fact. ............ but I get your point. I think in general you are correct about the process of investigation. ................................................

Your tea leaves and methods are different from mine, that's all. There does come a point where endless discussion/ viewpoints/opinions ceases to accomplish anything - I think that is exactly where the Cooper case is and sooner or later that will become abundantly clear to everyone. Angels that live on the head of a pin - how many and what are their names! (Does it matter when paying the heat bill! ?) Or Cooper Philosophy 101:00