georger

“A” QUADRANT: The low-frequency radio range (LFR), also known as the four-course radio range, LF/MF four-course radio range, A-N radio range, Adcock radio range, or commonly "the range", was the main navigation system used by aircraft for instrument flying in the 1930s and 1940s, until the advent of the VHF omnidirectional range (VOR), beginning in the late 1940s. It was used for en route navigation as well as instrument approaches and holds. Based on a network of radio towers which transmitted directional radio signals, the LFR defined specific airways in the sky. Pilots navigated the LFR by listening to a stream of automated "A" and "N" Morse codes. For example, they would turn the aircraft to the right when hearing an "N" stream ("dah-dit, dah-dit, ..."), to the left when hearing an "A" stream ("di-dah, di-dah, ..."), and fly straight ahead while hearing a steady tone. The A Quadrant refers to the sector in which the morse code letter "A" (di dah) is heard. 377 attached ...

See This Post by Sluggo_Monster where I show what map the FBI LZ was plotted on. (The 1954 La Center Quadrangle Topo.) In that post I explain that the map used was a 1:62,500 scale topo-map produced by the Army Corps of Engineers. And that the 1:24,000 scale (7½ minute) USGS maps of that area did not exist in 1971. That is why there are no modern maps with the La Center name. This map, last updated in 1954 was the current 1:62,500 scale map in 1971. I don’t blame georger for missing (or forgetting) that post. Anyone could have missed or forgotten it. With all the back-biting, carping, flaming, and insults that go on here, the signal just gets lost in the noise. We (the regular posters on this thread) have a WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE about NORJAK, we just don’t have a parliamentarian to keep us in order (that’s NOT quade’s job) or a recording secretary to keep a history of the things we decide. At any rate, we DO know what map was used for the plot of the FBI LZ. Edit: Here is a direct link to the LZ Map (in color). {Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on.} I should have said: Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never known HOW and WHO laid that map on the la Center Quadrangle topo map. The Map says "La Center Quadrangle" in the upper left hand corner. You retitled that map the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" on your website. I have always called this map the NWA Probability map because so far as I know NWA made the map and the map was accompanied by two sheet of explanations including probability estimates for Cooper jumping in different zones ... .

If the FBI map is a radar plot map what does it matter where BTG VOR was or what a pilot reported? Radar is independent. Good point. Was the radar plot map entirely based on either radar echos or transponder replies, with no pilot position reports involved? I thought that there was some question about that. It's been a while, so I'm not sure. based on the foregoing discussions going way back, I think you may be right ... I dont think we ever reached a consensus even when Ckret was here, so we decided the FBI map was some combination of radar plots, pilot reports/notes, transcript input ... a Heinz 57! Sluggo can correct anything I say ... Meanwhile the original NWA (black & white) map produced by Solderlind etal was never questioned and, we never knew what map that was laid on. Somewhere somehow, the FBI map morphed out of the first NWA map. When and where and by who etc is unsure. Ckret didnt seem to know. I am willing to bet NWA has/had the full history of all of these maps. Likewise other people. Dont forget Jerry's version! This is a real can of worms - and it doesnt take much imagination to know why. The flight path was central in the case.

If the FBI map is a radar plot map what does it matter where BTG VOR was or what a pilot reported? Radar is independent.

Hi Bruce. Hope you are well... I'll let Sluggo explain this charts but the new charts L1/L2 are authentic 1971 issue whereas the FBI chart is thought be a later chart, after 1971 - nobody seems sure of its date or provenance including Ckret. When Sluggo compared the two charts he found the Battle Ground VOR shown on the FBI chart is missing or renamed (and in a different position?) vrs. the 1971 chart. Look at the blowup I posted. The BTG VOR on the FBI chart seems to be combined on the L1 chart and named PDX/BTG ... nobody seems sure of the implications of this. The FBI flight path map was based on radar plots so regardless of where BTG VOR was or was not on either map I would think the issue does not alter the flight path .............. ??? This is what 1969912 is referring to in his post above. Quade didn't see anything astounding? Im just copying the mail and waiting ... Jerry has left DZ for a while due to time issues ...

Any progress on nailing down the date and registration of the FBI map? That should be ane asy one for a map historian. [edit] BTW: Jo's history is never listening to advice from anyone, much less anyone here. Do you seriously think she will take your advice now? Jo is on a mission, the depth of which we avoid here; silence is better than open thought here. But I like Jo's RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE typos now. That's being "American" for effect. Jo is a tea party?

I already made my call, yesterday. The answer was an emphatic "NO!" so the party has never talked to you directly. So there is your answer, Ms. Weber. [edit] In addition; your husband or whatever he was, never was at buDop in the 1960s or at any other time. Nor did he ever have US Army Ranger training, Special Forces training, or any other type of special training while affiliated with the US Govt that people who keep records can document. Your suppositions posted here at Dropzone suggesting specialised training were turned over to the proper authorities under the DOD to investigate, a long time ago...

But have YOU talked to that person? Yes or No is all that is required. I can call and ask that person tomorrow - My bet is: you have never talked to that person primarily because that person would never knowingly talk to you about anything. So everything you say is what? Heresay? It "sounds" as if you are suddenly now adopting Jerry's scenario, that 305 went through Troutdale? Wouldnt that be a hoot!

Dont you have some friend who knows aviation maps history? who would be able to nail exactly what map the FBI (Ckret) map was scribbled on? I would think that easy for someone with map knowledge??

got the yert but no kurd.. our wacko friend down the road says she's going to build a yert and live in it .... guess theyare big in CA? ... county says nope. I have referred here to Jerry or Sluggo! What corrected fp? Is L1 being offered as a corrected fp? Didnt see Sluggo saying anything like that ...

maybe this will help -

I've looked at it. I've compared it to the sectional and to the 2010 Enroute Low Altitude. Other than the normal changes one would expect over the course of 40 years, I don't see anything out of the ordinary. There is a section of river depicted on the 1971 chart that is no longer depicted on the 2010 chart, but so what? A lot of charting changes have taken place over the years in an effort to make things more clear. Depicting a river on an IFR chart is for the most part superfluous and it's not like the actual flight path of the DB Cooper plane went over the part of the river that was depicted anyway. What else are you seeing that I'm not? BTW, it would be nice if the scans were straightened and matched in resolution. Doing that by hand is a pita for most people. Mine fit together pretty easily but I use a graphic proggy that adjusts things automatically. Otherwise I still wonder what the date and identity of the FBI map is ... we already know 305 didnt follow V23 exactly ... so Im guessing there is something about scales and time-scales Sluggo thinks he has seen ???

Yes, heard but couldn't work PSE on 20M Friday, cant recall freq, maybe 14.195 USB? Weak, barely readable. PSE Paul is from my area and has been giving preferences at times to "6" call signs. I'll BET just about anything Snow has worked them. Snow has contest grade rigs, amps and several towers, one even has some big gun stacked beams. My 100W and wimpy vertical doesn't stand much chance in those pileups Georger. I worked 30 QSOs on a parachute jump from 18,000 ft on March 20. It was fun being the chased DX, even on 2M simplex FM. I am going to do HF parachute mobile this summer. Have you heard anything from Tom Kaye? What is he working on? 377 14.195 sounds abt right. Snow probably has worked him. Ive heard (seen posts) about this socalled pref for 6 calls - some of them on the cluster downright mean!

[ QSL? 377 Hv you even heard YI9PSE? Most posts are from EU and I hear few working on 101... or 14 CW ... I caught him breifly on 10106.1 a few minutes ago but cud not work him due to zoo. Then prop dropped and he vanished ... Have you heard him at all any freq? G

Looking forward to seeing your charts. Absolutely. Well done.

Orange1, Yes, unfortunately. Just like school kids… amazing! I have done all I can do to attempt to help turn this thread into something useful, maybe someone else has some ideas. Skyjack71 said: Jo, You are one screwed-up woman. When things don’t go your way, you blame everybody but the one responsible (you). And then you have the gall to send a e-mail, looking for sympathy, or whatever. If you are looking for sympathy, it’s in the dictionary between “Shit” and Syphilis.” No one is going to sue anyone! Again, you do not seem to understand the internet (it ain’t the “real-world”). You state that you can’t say anything in public, then go ahead and list a string of parameters that would let even a simpleton figure out the relationship. What a nut-case you have become. To let someone like Jerry pull your strings shows how desperate you are for attention. I don’t know where the Jo Weber I met in 2003 went, but the Jo Weber of 2010 isn’t even close. Jerry accuses me of being on your side, you accuse me of being on Jerry’s side, or ckret’s side, or georger’s side. Well, guess what, I’m only on Sluggo’s side. Just because I treat people with dignity and respect, doesn’t mean I have some sort of affinity to/for them! All, Like many others, I have given up on my hope that this thread will help me gather any useful information. BUT, I do have some interesting new information to share. I have just received the Enroute Low Altitude – U.S. L-1 Chart with an effective date of 11 NOV 1971 through 9 DEC 1971. This chart has some surprises on it! I have been operating under some false assumptions based on current (and the FBI –supplied chart)! This is the chart given to the crew of Flt.305 so they could fly according to their clearance. I will make .jpgs of this chart and post them on my web site no later than Monday (hopefully). The info on these charts will make me give up on some of my most sacred theories. [NOTE: You see Jo, this is how it works… You form a theory, you defend your theory, then when presented with factual information that doesn’t fit your theory, you modify the theory and move on.] I will make a post (on this thread) when I put the charts on the site. These charts (L-1 and L-2 from 1971) were made possible due to much work (and expense) of a “Friend of N467US.com.” He ordered and paid for L-1 and L-2, so I am going to order the Seattle Sectional from the same period. It may take 3 months to get the chart (if it is available). In the mean-time you guys know what forums, blogs, and e-mail addresses to contact me at. Sluggo ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sluggo’s Quotable Quotes: “Time flies like an arrow… Fruit flies like a banana!” And especially for Jo: "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ pretty good post and I generally agree up to the point you say you know Jo is nuts and can get under people's skin and abuse common decency, then you under-estimate the extent to which she does precisely what you say she does. So which is it? Cant be both but neither ??? ... you get my drift and Im saying this with total compassion for anyone including you on the receiving end. Jo Weber has a mental problem to put it MILDLY. It amazes me she accomplishes as much as she does ... but not really. She's VERY energetic. This is the viewpoint Jerry is coming from. He just isnt articulate about it and wears his frustrations on his sleeve. All in the face of the unrelenting imposter Jo Weber! The whole thing is probably just anextension of what Jo and Duane used to do together and we know Duane's record ... which Jo now wants to use and hide all at the same time? But lets me clear about one thing. Jo issues threats. She very seldom carries through or lacks the actual capacity to carry through. Quade commented about that months ago and chided us that anyone would take Jo seriously ... I think Quade was correct. We have covered this ground before. How many times does it take? That is what Orange is saying and I agree with her. Now if Cooper had hijacked his plane in Georgia and Jo had called you to help with her claim ... ????? ... But it happened in Washington where Jerry is a resident and Jo is and always was the tresspasser. Most thinking people in WA see it that way. My family included. But your post is well taken. You are a Gentleman.

I want to be sure these guys have access to MY maps Why would corporations and the US Govt need maps from you!?

It was an awesome time for sure. I keep thinking whats the big deal, anyone can just ignore the forum for as long as they wish, but alas, moderators do not have that freedom. Now I understand Quade's "awesome time" comment a bit better. 377 Can you translate that into English?

same to you & yours Orange ... G

good reply, and prior to his meeting(s) with Mr. Cossey and other research Ckret said this: Ckret Jun 14, 2008, 3:13 PM Post #2600 of 17295 (2990 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 522 Re: [happythoughts] money [In reply to] Can't Post ------------------------------------------------------------ I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey. I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it. Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them. (This post was edited by Ckret on Jun 14, 2008, 3:17 PM) |Moreover: other people have talked to Cossey and are on record. One posted to this forum after calling Cossey. Fact is there are a number of posts on this topic in the record which are searchable. That addresses the existence of the instructions. What was Cossey's role in life? Rigger, packering, instructor, etc. Instructions in that capacity are nothing unusual. As to the "content" of the instructions delivered Cooper: Ask Cossey or Ckret. You did not ask about "form": Card? Paper? Memeographed sheet? Typewritten? see the above. maybe a search here would be productive...

Ive already commented on tbe CVA's - you havent. So who is playing games and intimidating?

I dont drink. Sorry. I dont do drugs. Sorry. I dont start threads likeyours below: 1969912 PM United States Jumps License In sport : 3 : : Mar 27, 2010, 5:29 PM Post #1 of 54 (353 views) Copy Shortcut Registered: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 3981 What's the plural form of "anus"? - NEW Quote | Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG (This post was edited by 1969912 on Mar 27, 2010, 5:30 PM) Attachments: 032710_HEALTHBILL_20100327_200414.jpg (26.0 KB)

Or cats. Now that IS funny. We could discuss Butler! I ran into a major confab last night at my local eatery Ive visited for over 20 years ... the owner is a local HS girl's coach. I know more than walked in than the pro MichState faction started in ... Big Ten supporters, over Butler? So I posed the question: well if this was UNI then what in hell would you folks being saying!? That caused a delay in their thinking ... long pause.. then laughter ... so we took a vote. I am proud to announce it is now 50-50 at my local eatery. And screw Michigan State (even though a third of my family is up there). By the way... UNI coach was called about the UI job. He said sorry ... you heard it first here. The new guy here sounds & looks pretty good. His assistants will make more than the UNI coach makes! A lot of us are wondering about that ... doesnt seem fair does it? Did I say "fair"? I meant "smart". "Can we get back to the CVA's? Just a suggestion." Yours I presume: 1969912 Mar 27, 2010, 5:29 PM Post #1 of 54 (353 views) Registered: Sep 30, 2005 Posts: 3981 What's the plural form of "anus"? - NEW Quote | Reply ------------------------------------------------------------ "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG (This post was edited by 1969912 on Mar 27, 2010, 5:30 PM) Attachments: 032710_HEALTHBILL_20100327_200414.jpg (26.0 KB)

Or cats. Now that IS funny. We could discuss Butler! I ran into a major confab last night at my local eatery Ive visited for over 20 years ... the owner is a local HS girl's coach. I know more than walked in than the pro MichState faction started in ... Big Ten supporters, over Butler? So I posed the question: well if this was UNI then what in hell would you folks being saying!? That caused a delay in their thinking ... long pause.. then laughter ... so we took a vote. I am proud to announce it is now 50-50 at my local eatery. And screw Michigan State (even though a third of my family is up there). By the way... UNI coach was called about the UI job. He said sorry ... you heard it first here. The new guy here sounds & looks pretty good. His assistants will make more than the UNI coach makes! A lot of us are wondering about that ... doesnt seem fair does it? Did I say "fair"? I meant "smart".

Re: Quade, 1969912, Jo, etal, Can we get back to the CVA's? Just a suggestion.