georger

Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not in the Transcript.

Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 Thats sort of what I assumed ... instructors used to use old surplus aircraft instruments in the lab, eons ago. None of them required power ... amazing technology. I can see why 377 collects them! BTW where is 377 on all of this ?

Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ?

Of course he could. Now you must prove that he did, right? You have zip on this so far. People slam on Christiansen sometimes because he had 'hazel' eyes and Cooper's were reported as brown. Sheridan's are BLUE.Quote And you have ZIP on Kenny on 4 Clydesdales abreast with the Cooper Comic nailed to a wall in the wheel house of Tug No.40 at Foss Tugboats ... all in a trailer at some campground now changed to a tool shack in the woods near Anti Gravity Hill !

Quote There is an even more compelling reason for NOT backing down those stairs IF Cooper knew what he was doing, or if for example he had jumped a 727 before, or was even a cargo handler ... I'll get to that indue course ... Nice photos. Is that loafer on Sheridan?

Its pretty clear one of the things they are interested in is testing/duplicating pressure, presure changes visi-a-vis the aft stairs/door position, and the timing of pressure changes vs the drop and aircraft flight paramters recorded by the black box? That would give a data set for comparison with 305's recorded flight record ~ radar tapes. People on this flight who worked on the data included NWA's Paul Solderlind, an NWA instrument specialist, two FBI technical people, NWA Chief Pilot Western Regional Div, 305 FE Harold Anderson, and others ... These are the people who chose the instruments who are dealing with the data ...

Clock VSI - tells how fast you're climbing or descending Airspeed Least, that's the way I see them. Whatever these instruments are they appear to be free standing self contained with no obvious wires ? Placed at the top of the stairwell. So if one is measuring pressure its measuring pressure at the top of the stairwell. The combination of the devices being used to measure event timing ... ? They all look like aircraft instruments to me - I dont see a Beckman strip chart recorder there that was prominent in that era ...

Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it!

They were probably obtained from an instrument shop specifically for these tests. They are probably just standard instruments for the 1971 time frame. Robert99 One of those meters probably reads pressure of some kind. I was looking for wires or a strain guage or sensor(s) ? There is a vertical piece right side above the black meter panel and what may be a wire or tube going from the black panel up to that vertical piece? In the smaller photo the wire or tube is more sharply defined. They would need time, pressure, and something to measure force?

That photo of the Soggy Bottom Boys is great! Here! Alison Krauss & Union Station Band. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBVnKYOvWcs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALcdFAAojt4

Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99 Yes, I'm doing this right now, but the best I can do (probably) is show what they read. impossible to read the gauges numbers...... here is one pic.... the bottom gauge (needle) appears to be black or a different color than the two above? still working on different things with the pic... will try that too -

Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99 The turbulence story could be part of H's cover to have Cooper dead - corpse vanishes in the ... turbulence/vortex. Will do a "Blevins" and divert away from the stair retraction issue for the moment until Ive had time to put something together. Will return to that ... Here I think are the test photos you are speaking of - maybe you or shutter can glean something from these ... the dials are difficult to read but maybe their morphology means something to someone.

Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Quote Yes you can see the stairs pull up quickly once his weight is off them, then sort of float open part way. Dependent on forward velocity of the aircraft and air pressure, angle of air pressure on the stairs? On 11-24-71 they slam fully shut at least for an instant ... and slam fully shut during the FBI test (photo documentation). Cooper's weight and this person's weight (this video) evidently enough to overcome air pressure to bring the stairs full down long enough to get out ... the same in the FBI test. I wonder what the upward pressure on those stairs is at different v's ? Has Robt99 tried to estimate that ... ? (we touched this briefly once before). We need some numbers -

Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). Let's throw this into the mix to be fair - Would an experienced person have an advantage? I think yes. The Boeing people seem to have taken a stronger stance saying 'pribably no'. Were the Boeing people and the FBi looking for a preconceived result? I think not. They took time to gather data and shared the data out impartially. Are the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed known and has that been shared - yes. Was any test conducted which duplicated the conditions under which Cooper actually bailed - evidently not. People tried to extrapolate and surmise based on the new tests and skydiver tests done after the fact. (Flight engineer Anderson participated in some of the later tests and felt the "bump" had been duplicated by the closing shut of the stairs... so far as I know).

I can see Duane being with a call girl at the Titanium Lounge or the Leopard Lounge in Columbus on Nov 24, 1971 ... but not in a parachute jumping "through the hole of a 727" ! I am sure there is a Boeing memo about that!

I still think Cooper must have known that a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was very possibly entering an aluminum jail cell that would prevent his escape until landing. With my 727 knowledge and skydiving experience in 71 I never wound have tried what Cooper did because I could not be sure I could get out of the plane in flight. Not any of the cockpit crew nor anyone at NWA ops could could determine whether the plane could be safely flown stairs down. They had to call Boeing. Turns out Boeing knew because they had done extensive flight tests probably for the CIA. 377Quote Regardless of what ANYONE KNEW! (which includes you and Cooper) ... the core facts of those stairs and how they react in turbulence was a set of facts anyone was going to have to face, one way or another, under the conditions Cooper decided to bail in from the plane On Nov 24th 1971, 8:10.... In the words of one former Boeing official I talked with: "Cooper got out of that hole by the skin of his teeth, whether he knew it or not. Those stairs were unlocked and very unstable. The tests after the hijacking proved that....." The Boeing person emphasized to me, it would have stressed anyone's experience or training and luck regardless of who they were, due to the physics of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time ... as documented by the post hijacking tests. This opinion helped form the idea that Cooper probably hadn't survived the jump and may have been injured trying to separate from the stairs ... And I am just as sure people will reply: People do it all the time. I'm trying to bring the focus back to the nature of those stairs under the conditions of the flight vs. what people knew or did not know, or what Cooper knew or did not know, and what one person would do or not do versus another person. The nature of those stairs during Cooper's hijacking remains the same, and may pose a serious problem when unlocked, in any event. And I am actually not sure what the implications of that is, for a trained person vs an untrained person. The Boeing guy I talked to, who helped design the Cooper vane later, basically was saying: 'It doesn't matter whether he was trained or not. The issues would be difficult if not impossible, for anyone'. These experts don't deal in Cult Candidate Crunching! So, Himmelsbach's contention, for example, that Cooper had died, did not come out of a vacuum. It was based on expert opinions like the Boeing official above. And his opinion (and other's similar opinions) remain unchanged, to this very day. These opinions were based on actual force and time data ..

do we have to automatically expect Cooper to of known the stairs would deploy in flight? testing and criminal active share a certain bond, the word "hope" plays a role in testing and criminal activity. I know the stairs have accidentally opened in flight, but not sure on the date. if he read this he could of got his answer as well? Quote 377 has made a few crucial comments imho, I want to address later - What Cooper knew or didn't know we won't know until we know who Cooper was, or talk to him. Lacking that one fact is crucial. regardless of who Cooper was or what he knew. Those rear stairs locked vs. unlocked present a totally different set of problems to anyone using them to exit while in flight. Unlocked they are unstable. Locked they are far more stable. In Cooper's situation we know the stairs were unlocked. Accordingly, as the Transcript and other factual records documents: Cooper spent what may be an inordinate of time testing those unlocked stairs, flap settings were changed to try and slow and stabilize the aircraft in turbulence so Cooper could bail from those UNLOCKED stairs, and there was a period of the flight just prior to Cooper bailing (not fully documented in the sanitized Transcripts but documented in other records) where Cooper and the pilots communicated on the interphone, either directly or through Tina before she went forward, trying to slow and stabilize the aircraft so Cooper could bail off those unstable UNLOCKED stairs. This is the actual record. Once Cooper's weight was off those stairs they at some point slammed back closed (the Pressure Bump). So, whatever his training or lack of training, or what he knows or does not know, he had to deal with the problem of those stairs under the flight conditions at the time, and he apparently did so successfully and separated from the aircraft (uninjured and alive?), and neither his body or his parachute were ever found. The crew has testified that the period during which Cooper bailed off the unlocked stairs was characterised by 'turbulence'. The pilot (Rataczak) has commented at length to any number of people about the problems he had slowing and stabilizing the plane during this period of turbulence specifically setting up conditions under which Cooper could bail, because they wanted him to bail and be gone along with his bomb!. The Transcripts DO NOT reflect the full communications which went on regarding those unlocked stairs and the dangers implicit in that condition - which people at Boeing and others were concerned about. One concern was that Cooper's bomb might be set off, whether he intended to or not, due to the turbulence and unstable nature of those unlocked stairs, at the time! And nobody knew for certain the nature of his bomb or whether it was still on the plane or perhaps even tied to those stairs - So, regardless of what Cooper knew or did not know, had training or had no training, was a military trained expert or a rank novice ... the nature of those unstable unlocked stairs riding in turbulence was the same, for anyone. We don't have the record of what Boeing witnesses said or did not say on the matter.

William Lloyd David Cooper Known “Bad Guy.” Born and lived in Canada. Able to finance (expensive) adventures in 1971 and 1972. Once lived in Portland, OR. Had reconstructive surgery on his face (confirmed). Sluggo's dates for the above from Mar 12, 2010 ... whole series of posts! Good searching Shutter.

Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz

I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud.

here - little larger readable for us geezars. note that nice strong jaw, left eye lower than right. The Coopers come in all shapes and sizes!

Ok.. I have to admit it... I have been saving it for all these years... my 4th GrGrandfather was named Sam Cooper from South Carolina.. LOL...Busted! You do realize that this makes makes you kinda sorta southern to boot. Howdy cuz

I think you're probably making a joke, but I"ll bite. I actually thought this might be something to look into but I haven't done enough reading to say it out loud.

It's kind of interesting that no one in the thread has brought Wild Bill forward? I think he looks EXACTLY like DB Cooper. He evidently escaped Geoff Gray's attention in the files. Geoff would never fail to seize an opportunity like this if it presented itself. The colour alone is worth a mention. And his brother didn't go to 377 for a script! Daw di daw dit! He escaped Tosaw's attention. He escaped Sluggo's attention! He escaped Meyer-Dvorak's attention! He escaped Snowmman's search attention !! I wonder if the Oregon Coopers and the MN Coopers are are related? (Through the Richards-Coopers who settled the Shenandoah Valley under mandate from King George). Some went to So Carolina, two to Ohio, and one to Minnesota. I wonder if there is a Wild Bill/KC connection, through Mary Queen of Scotts ? I'm sure titanium fits in there somewhere. Didn't Fuhrman say the FBI failed to search Alaskan dog teams for titanium? Did Janet know Wild Bill ?

Quote Im going to contact Fuhrman and ask him about your assertions attributed to him. I doubt he even reads here.