georger

They didn't quite make it but other packets of the bills, and Cooper himself, may have made it into the Columbia. If they did, their remains may have made a few circuits of the Pacific by now. Robert99 Round and round you go. (again) Your theory doesn't fit the known evidence. Approximately three bundles of the ransom are found on a riverbank. Now people are saying they were never in the river. In addition, there is NO evidence showing an overflight near Tena Bar, which is approximately four miles WEST of the Interstate 5 freeway. There is also the allegations of the crew, who worked with NWA and the FBI to select the alleged dropzone, which is far from Tena Bar. Miles away, in fact. If you couple that with Money Did Not Wash Downstream in the Columbia, and It Wasn't Dredged to the Spot, that only leaves human intervention. Beyond all the other things Kaye says, he leans toward this idea the most. You can tell this by the things he has said publicly. And I think he may be right. On the subject of the rubber band tests, since Kaye did not get to see the originals that crumbled on the money, it is difficult for Kaye (in my opinion only) to determine how long the money was actually at Tena Bar before it was found. The money was subject to exposure to chemicals, handling, and stored for years before his team were allowed to examine it. And beyond all of that...your theory depends on the death of Cooper in the jump...in a spot allegedly miles from the flight path and the search area agreed upon back in 1971. Not only can you not prove those things to support your theory, they actually go AGAINST what is known on the case. Lastly, if everything you say is true about the Tena Bar money...then how come all the researchers say the money had not been exposed to the elements for more than a few years at most? Maybe Cooper took some of the money to Purgatory (I don't figure him for Heaven ) and returned to drop it off at Tena Bar say...around 76-79? Shutter says in part: That's an opinion, and you are welcome to it, no problem. But here's the deal: How come so many of the other witnesses didn't agree on their descriptions of the hijacker? A quick review: 1) George Labissioniere: Had a good view of the hijacker because he went to the bathroom so many times and Cooper was in the back: 'No more than thirty-five...' 2) Cord Spreckel: Another good view. 'About fifty. Square jaw.' 3) Bill Mitchell: 'Saggy chin...' 4) Flo Schaffner, the only witness besides the ticket agent to see Cooper without his sunglasses, said his eyes were brown. She thought Cooper was six feet. 5) Mucklow: Five-ten to six feet. 6) Robert Gregory: 'No more than five-nine..' All three stews picked different combos from the FBI's Facial Identification Catalog. But let's move even farther forward with this idea. Ask yourself this question: WHEN exactly did the FBI obtain these descriptions from the stewardesses? I'm not going to tell you that. I would like Georger to answer that one. And the answer will surprise you. When Mucklow got off the plane, she looked like a deer in the headlights. You should consider that when considering her testimony. Georger has said that I'm trying to change physics when I suggested that it might be more difficult to gauge someone's true height inside the confines of an aircraft. I know this much. It would be easier if they were standing next to you at a bus stop and you weren't being threatened with instant death at 10,000 feet. That isn't drama, it's reality. And stress in a stressful situation is also reality. Ask Georger WHEN the FBI actually dealt with the stews after the hijacking...I mean when they actually got down to cases with them. And where it was done. Especially Mucklow and Alice Hancock. RB says: I re-posted that because you cherry-picked it without answering the issues I raised. Robert99 says in part: I do know how they worked on the flight path, and came to a tentative conclusion on the jump point. The passengers were interviewed after a head count and a name-calling were done. Schaffner and Hancock were probably interviewed initially in Seattle, and agents in Reno probably talked to Mucklow. But have you checked to see when the FBI actually got down to cases with the stews? I think Georger should answer. This move by the FBI, to allow the stews and crew to return home first, and not do the heavy interviews until the following Saturday, may have been a mistake. As I said, this is my information on what happened. If anyone wants to correct me on this, feel free to do so. Quote The title says it all! Nothing at All When you find something - take out an ad! Giid nite Irene. Ich not going back and read pages of bullshit. WHATS DA QUESHION!?

Quote In Jo's FIRST ITERATION, highly published in the Halls of Delphi back in 1412, Jo didn't know WHAT was in the paper bag. Subsequent recall and research with RobertMBlevins helpjng, has expanded and confirmed: (a) 1 Big Mac (b) three bundles of cash - correction! 2.5857464846 bundles. (c) bottle of Malox (d) ten women's purses (e) bottle of aspirin (f) 2 NWA flight maps (g) lock of JFK's hair (h) King Arthur's billfold (i) Tina's childhood photo (j) two more bottles of aspirin (j) Elvis' billfold (k) partidge in a pear tree. So the obvious question is: If the money turned up at Tina Bar where is the rest of the loot?

Blevins, the rotation of the bills IS significant. And the lack of evidence of "fanning", as opposed to "torqueing", means that they were never exposed to deep water as an unrestrained (except for one rubber band) packet. The logical interpretation is that the money packets had never been in the Columbia River proper in the first place. Further, it is really a stretch to suggest that the bills were rotated to such an extent during their handling in Seattle. I suggest that you pay more attention to what Tom Kaye is saying on his web page. I realize that the above may not fit into whatever theories Blevins is advancing in his new book, but life can be a bitch at times. Robert99Quote location, location, location. forget the epicycles!

Quote Torqueing ? Has Tom revised his website/analysis? Guess I will have to find out for myself. This is news to me. Any photos of torque? Measurements? Georger, Take a look in the "Money Find" section, "Money Analysis" subsection, of Tom Kaye's web page. As of February 22, 2013, on his web page, Tom had a Figure 7 in the "Money Analysis" subsection that illustrates the positions of some of the bills while buried. He shows from the fragments that remain of some of the bills that the top bills had rotated counter-clockwise with respect to the bills on the bottom of the packet. I described this movement as being the result of having a counter-clockwise "torque" applied to the packet. The physical force required to produce this torque is water running down the bank and into the Columbia River. I suggest that you read the entire "Money Find" section and "Money Analysis" subsections again. The above was discussed, or at least I wrote about it, on this thread several weeks ago. Robert99Quote Ok, so rotation not torque. Makes sense now. Ive seen that illustration. Tom presents that illustration then later talks about 'perfect alignment' ? Ink bleeding through due to bills being in 'perfect alignment'? That there was not perfect alignment of the bills stacked might mean something in terms of the forces acting on the bills in situ but beyond that I see no deep meaning in this ... the Ingrams took no photos of the bills when found, as they were removing them, when they were at their apartment being pulled apart and sorted in the kitchen .... etc. The first photos of the bills I know of were with H at the Portland office, laid out on a table in piles for the press event. We know the Ingrams tried to separate and soak and pull and clean as many bills as possible at their apartment - their first intent was to redeem the bills for cash at a bank. How the bills got put back together to take to the FBI office or were sorted into piles and laid out for the press event at the office ... I do not know. In fact, Mrs Ingram is still alive and might remember ... but she seldom talks to anyone directly - everything always comes through Brian. I just dont get Tom saying 'perfect alignment' on the one hand then showing an illustration proving non-perfect alignment. I thought 'perfect alignment' was being used to support hand burial as opposed to natural forces. Then it turns out there is non-perfect alignment which would tend to support mixed natural forces. And you speculate the direction of force was from above (further up the bank), ie rain and melt water. Let me leave it at that for the time being. Thanks for clarifying 'torque'.

I don't suppose anyone wonders whether all the bills in each packet were assembled in perfect, face-up order? Perhaps a few were upside down the whole time within some of the ransom packets? Although the money had been previously 'set aside' by the bank, no one said the money was stored pre-packed in bundles of roughly a hundred bills each and bound with rubber bands. The bills were probably wrapped originally with the standard paper bands, but during assembly of the packets, it was done rather hastily I would assume. It's very possible some ended up facing this way, others the opposite way, during the assembly process and the adding of the rubber bands. It's known that during the assembly process they tried to fool the hijacker into believing the money wasn't being marked or recorded by varying the size of the bundles. I doubt anyone involved in preparing the bundles for delivery cared which way the individual bills faced. The main goal would be to put them together as quickly as possible and get them to the airport before the hijacker decides to blow up the jet.Quote Weve been through this countless times - not going through it again. It's unproductive territory.

Quote KC's brother told Mike Simmons on a national broadcast the whole thing was a "good idea for a script for a movie" and that he did not believe Kenny had been Cooper! Lyle and Blevins have some 'splainin' to do! BTW, Porteous says he has cut all ties with Blevins. just another reason not to look into KC. I just don't see anything there.....only stories....just like the rest. Sorry to say this but some of Tom's so-called tests are crap and meaningless. But I am now wondering about the new-found "torque" evidence? When did Torque roll out of Tom Kaye Industries? I'm always suspicious of scientists who published via Adventure Sci Fi Books of Seattle. Let's see: the words are - "... at least one packet of the money found at Tina Bar had been exposed to a "torque" while on the river bank." Torque like a tractor running over it? How did one torqued packet (supposedly separate?) then get cemented with river sediment to the other 2 untorqued bundles...? Or was the one torqued while being in the presence of the other? The more obvious question given Tom's bias is: "does the torqued bundle speak French Canadian?" and "is the torque due to the left or right hand, how many foot lbs required, any hairy from the arm that did the torquing, and is the dna of the hair Greek or Parmesian?" Here we go again. More damned riddles from the riddlers. Can't anybody just do some straight up forensic work in this fucking case and come out clean at the other end of the media hozzle? Everybody has an angle! And speaks in tongues. And how torquing would guarantee the $$$ had never been in the river - totally escapes me. I will look up the Three Stooges bio. There may be a movie about that?

If the flight HAD been west of the freeway, the FBI would have looked there Quote Well, the FBI did look west of I5! Duhhhhhhhhhh.

KC's brother seems to be at the heart of this whole issue by claiming KC was Cooper. you get a bunch of emails from people who don't really know much about the case other than he jumped out of a plane....... ...Quote KC's brother told Mike Simmons on a national broadcast the whole thing was a "good idea for a script for a movie" and that he did not believe Kenny had been Cooper! Lyle and Blevins have some 'splainin' to do! BTW, Porteous says he has cut all ties with Blevins.

The evidence reported by Tom Kaye is that at least one packet of the money found at Tina Bar had been exposed to a "torque" while on the river bank. This torqueing, plus the height above sea level (and river level) at which the money was found, suggests that the money was in the process of ENTERING the Columbia River. In plain English, the Tina Bar money had never been in the Columbia itself in the first place. Quote Torqueing ? Has Tom revised his website/analysis? Guess I will have to find out for myself. This is news to me. Any photos of torque? Measurements?

The guy doesn't name an LZ in his post, and if you actually know where Cooper jumped...you should sent that info to the Seattle FBI. But you don't know. Not for sure. Neither does the FBI or anyone else. Personally, I think he jumped not long after he saw the lights go by at the Merwin Lake Dam. That's just a guess, of course. I've always believed at least a modicum of planning went into the whole thing, since you are talking about risking your life by jumping from that jet, getting forty years in prison if you're caught, or shot by snipers at SeaTac...and then expecting the FBI to provide the means to escape, as well as the money. Unless Cooper was a complete nut job, he probably studied a map and did some planning first. He was cool enough to order a drink and have a smoke with The Main Stew first. What do you think? Sound like spur of the moment to you? I see trees of green, red roses too I see them bloom for me and for you And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. I see skies of blue and clouds of white The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky Are also on the faces of people going by I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do They're really saying ... I love you. I hear babies cry, I watch them grow They'll learn much more than I'll never know And I think to myself, what a wonderful world And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, I like this version better. Get real. Bid Ask High Low Open 2.1815 2.1835 2.19 2.1757 2.187

The guy doesn't name an LZ in his post, and if you actually know where Cooper jumped...you should sent that info to the Seattle FBI. But you don't know. Not for sure. Neither does the FBI or anyone else. Personally, I think he jumped not long after he saw the lights go by at the Merwin Lake Dam. That's just a guess, of course. I've always believed at least a modicum of planning went into the whole thing, since you are talking about risking your life by jumping from that jet, getting forty years in prison if you're caught, or shot by snipers at SeaTac...and then expecting the FBI to provide the means to escape, as well as the money. Unless Cooper was a complete nut job, he probably studied a map and did some planning first. He was cool enough to order a drink and have a smoke with The Main Stew first. What do you think? Sound like spur of the moment to you? I see trees of green, red roses too I see them bloom for me and for you And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. I see skies of blue and clouds of white The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky Are also on the faces of people going by I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do They're really saying ... I love you. I hear babies cry, I watch them grow They'll learn much more than I'll never know And I think to myself, what a wonderful world And I think to myself, what a wonderful world. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH,

We're showing 'Them,' and then a special Atomic Age newsreel I created from files downloaded from the Internet Archive via Pathe News, followed by 'American Graffiti - Special Edition,'. I may toss in 'Robinson Crusoe on Mars - Criterion Edition' early on in the day. Everything, including the food and drink, is free. Quote OFF TOPIC! Youve been off topic all day ... no two days ... Tell me that the next time you post up another Alice in Wonderland comment. You've made up my mind for me. I will drag out the projector and do one more slideshow on Kenneth Peter Christiansen. He's like a Cooper suspect and stuff, which makes this post ON topic. Quote No its not, You call Microsoft "Microslave" and The word Christiansen isnt anywhere in yours above except for your equally bizarre smartass reply.

We're showing 'Them,' and then a special Atomic Age newsreel I created from files downloaded from the Internet Archive via Pathe News, followed by 'American Graffiti - Special Edition,'. I may toss in 'Robinson Crusoe on Mars - Criterion Edition' early on in the day. Everything, including the food and drink, is free. Quote OFF TOPIC! Youve been off topic all day ... no two days ...

Actually, it was partly YOUR problem, since YOUR name was used in many of the posts. And YOUR true name and identity, and basic history, are well-known, thanks to Geoff Gray. Quote Actually Actually, it is NOT my problemo Pancho! You have strayed OFF TOPIC AGAIN! THIS IS NOT* A COMMUNITY EFFORT - THIS IS JUST YOU OFF THE RAILS AGAIN BRINGING YOUR PERSONAL SHIT TO THIS FORUM TRYING TO MAKE IT OUR PROBLEM! LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR PERSONAL SHIT WHICH I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH - AND NO CONTROL OVER! IT MUST GRATIFY YOU THAT YOU CAUSE ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS FOR PEOPLE, EVERYWHERE YOU GO!

I told the gum wrapper 'no'...for now. That was a warning, Georger. Those comments caused a lot of trouble for WordPress and Regina, who never even saw it coming. She'd never done a serious Cooper article series before. And after that, she never did again. She ended up like that girl hit by the bus in Final Destination. I actually felt sorry for her. She was forced by WordPress to delete more than 200 comments. It was either that or get her account deleted. But that's what goes on sometimes in Cooperland. Now you and the others whose names HERE were used THERE can say someone stole your names to do so. Fine. But the fact remains none of you complained about it, either here after I brought it up (several times) or to Regina...by asking her to remove them. Kind of strange. I would have said something myself. Well, actually I did by sending the PDF to Mullenberg. He's the co-founder of WordPress and he was not happy, I assure you. And people wonder why I'm doing a book on Cooperland. Why? Cause there's plenty of material.Quote Huh? Thanks for the Little Green Men in Cooperlandt report. Your problemos are not our problemos. (Thank Christ!) Just to be clear as mud: I was referring to chewing gum wrappers the FBI collected when the plane landed at Reno. I tend to stay on topic! I know that disturbs you. Auf Wiedersehen Cooperlander.

He, like anyone else, must judge for themselves.Quote Got anything on the gum wrappers collected at Reno?

Look forward to next week's article. Here is the first article of the series: http://tctrib.com/2013/06/10/the-d-b-cooper-skyjacking-legend-took-flight-out-of-pdx/Quote Thanks Vicki -

Look forward to next week's article.

I thought Quade asked NO POLITICS? Take it to Bonfire. BTW, is everyone aware of the brief Cooper thread that was on Bonfire ... back in '2005. One poster put up a long history of the Cooper case that's worth reading perhaps ... Here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1919898;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Bob I think you forgot to add the photo - "Sheridan had already jumped in a demo for the Boeing Skydiving Club dressed in the dark suit, white shirt, black tie, and loafers in 1962 ... "

Quote Well of all the people with real skills I have seen run through here he might just be the best to look at. I know Farflung poked holes in your story. But he definitely had the skills (maybe too any skills!), and he definitely had political motives, and he worked for Boeing, ... and the FBI did look at him on their own without prompting from anyone with an agenda. Has he done any real crime before or after? Of all the places on Earth to claim he was ... Nepal is pretty weird in my book. Not saying he was or wasn't; how would I know and I don't mean to sound provincial! As far as "beating the system" is concerned, I heard a thousand people utter that phrase every day each week for years in the late 60s and early 70s so I don't attach anything magical to that. If he had a criminal record of some kind that proved he could be a real skunk matching his political views with hardcore action, my sensors would start to blink, but I don't see that. He just looks like some Americanised Buddhist to me ... who wanted to "beat the system" like 10 million others did. Most of those were hardcore entrepreneurs by the 1980s, with a Holiday Inn or McDonalds franchise or two, attending Buddhist conferences on the side. Keep perusing it. Try to put him on the plane! Sounds trite but what else is there?.

Georger - Please! The thread has been warned about the PISSING contests. Even though most of us disagree with Blevins - it is best NOT to repeat the posting and if YOU have to say something - just be polite. Post a smile or a frown! He just cannot help himself - especially when he feels he needs to defend himself. Frankly I feel that way LOTS of time. Note - when I do I do make a comment - but DO not repeat their entire post! Try it! PLEASE!

But I can put him in a vehicle with Bernie Geestman headed south toward Portland only two days before the hijacking...and then not returning until the following Monday or Tuesday. Considering the events over the next twelve months in their lives, it's suspicious if nothing else.Quote Don't forget you now have Kenny and Geestman going back north in the same van immediately AFTER the hijacking.... remember the machine shop in remote rural area you posited during whatever revision it was ?

Quote They were convinced he had bailed north. Perhaps he did. Odd considering ...

RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear? I remember at the time, Cooper's dress and audacity, as it was perceived, had him appearing as some kind of "joke", a Hippie in a suit, a political activist making some kind of political statement, ... an audacious nutcase parachuting into the "wilderness of Washington" during a rainstorm in the political climate of chaos and national protesting at the time. The political overtones conveyed in the news were strong. Cooper fit squarely into the national angst at the time - That bias has worn off perhaps. People half expected to find Mr. Cooper wandering around half crazed from lack of food and stress, with a broken leg at minimum ... or a body somewhere, dead. With his $200,000 in twenties spread out by the wind over 20 square miles... All of that was based on the original search area announced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJjkiNMUB8 People at Vancouver, for example, went about their business while a few went north to join in the search. Nobody suspected Cooper money would turn up at Tina Bar of all places, in 1980! Could Bob Knoss be D.B. Cooper!