snowmman

Yup. I said he's not Cooper, so I'm not disagreeing with you. The key thing is how he matches all sorts of things we talked about. Shows that our biases about whether certain types of people exist or not can be false (I'm thinking about Ckret's confidence that Vietnam was out of the question) (edit) especially biases about age and vietnam and civilian jumpers. (edit) Also: how few people know about jumping in the NW in the early '60s (at least it seems that way to me!) Also: if one exists, how many more? There are 3 pictures out there. See if you can find them. There's actually a lot more stuff, like I say he's an interesting guy. I was always wondering if he could tell us more first hand stuff about those days that might lead to Cooper. He's got much more to brag about, then a lot of folks here...(although he's a little bit whacked now, I think).

The thing I'm mostly amazed at, is how the skydiving community is lending a hand to expose these things. Normally, they're a little outlaw. This reminds of the '70s when the Hells Angels did a little experiment with stopping on the roads to help people with flat tires and such. They would give them a little business card...forgot what it said. Maybe Jo can include a shoutout to all the skydivers that have helped her, in addition to her behind-the-scenes crew. Knowing that she has a small army of supporters, would help lend credibility to her story at Coast to Coast. No one else has as much backing. Where there's smoke, there must be fire.

on Coast to Coast, I would lead with how the FBI/CIA actively tried to bury the Duane Weber Story. i.e. she started 14 years only half thinking Duane might be involved, but it was the actions of government agencies, including internet posters with secret identities and motives, that convinced her she had to do something. It's tied in to how the country has gone downhill due to all of this. Duane Weber is just the litmus test exposing the underbelly of why the USA is in such a cesspool today. There's probably a number of other folks in similar positions, sprinkled throughout small towns, who have similar evidence of government conspiracies, and Jo's message may have a unifying effect, so they actually do something, like call in to the show to report their similar cases. Sort of like Sarah Palin.

good points nigel99. good stuff to muse on. Anyone have thoughts about the idea of "first to do it" coloring the problem? We're obviously looking at the problem with a lot of hindsight and more knowledge about jet jumps etc. Do people's opinions on the issue, reflect putting their minds into the state of affairs for civilian jumpers in 1971? I'm just thinking that if you know you're first to do it, you might add as much conservatism as you think you can afford, within the knowledge space you have. (edit) one can argue whether a night jump reflected conservatism, since "not being found" was an additional issue. As I noted: we quickly put labels like "inexperienced" on Cooper because of certain actions, but I'm not sure that say a B/C license kind of guy back then, might not have done the same thing? (edit) example of conservatism within one's knowledge space: 377 surmised that my quotes from the McCoy book, indicated McCoy had rigged a device for automatic reserve deployment. (edit) addition to my mention of the Columbia. While I focused on whether the dredge could have been part of movement, note that any delayed water movement theory, like from the Washougal, could be equally applied to a Cooper Columbia landing. The dredge isn't required, but possible. (remember the stories about the suicide bodies being regularly displaced by prop wash at the Willamette, as a an example of delayed object movement) (edit) and for 377 the optimist, a Columbia money landing, doesn't guarantee Cooper had the same fate! (edit) another way to state nigel99's 10k exit "ego" thing...there may have been a personal statement being made, consciously or unconsciously..issues beyond the money.

well, not a jumper strengthens the jump in the Columbia theory, I think. There's nothing that strongly excludes jumping into the Columbia. Most other theories have strong "not likely" issues. The "not likely" issues around jumping into the Columbia aren't that strong.

377 mentioned the 727 static line jump videos from before Cooper's jump. I doubt Farflung has seen them. I had taken them off youtube (but one still at dz.com) I just made this one world-visible again. This one has the 10x slow down. I wanted to check again if they had wheels down, but couldn't tell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs

georger: 377 just gave the example of experienced jumpers, not really knowing much about gear up or down. If experienced jumpers were going to exit a civilian jet for the first time (note there were no civilians jumping civilian jets at that time? military was just starting, broadly at least, we reviewed this before).. what would they ask for? On the one hand we say Cooper is stupid, but is he any more stupid than a jumper would be in 1971 when there is no experience base for jumping a jet? to repeat: who would be confident and have experience in 1971 for the event? no one, right? (the military experts aren't likely Coopers, so excluded)

I thought there was a bunch of posts where we discussed that one of the interesting things about a 727 is how it was much more stable at low speeds, then prior jets? (we posted some of the earlier articles in some engineering mags, where the designers were bragging about the novel wing/flap design, and tradeoffs) But your main point about "wheels down" displaying lack of aviation knowledge seems right. In terms of the other hijackers, I don't think we have as much detail. I remember a pilot quoting speed for at least one, sounded like they slowed down. But get this: in prior posts I posted links to McNally's court case, where he exited at some amazing speed (supposedly), at night also. It seemed like the plane might not have slowed at all (but how would he have gotten stairs down) here's the link 263 knots true air speed, claimed http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/485/398/399299/ He ordered the plane to proceed toward Canada. At 3 a. m. on June 24th, en route to Canada, traveling at 10,000 feet and 263 knots true air speed and located 43 miles west of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and five miles south of Peru, Indiana, the captain noticed a shift in air pressure according to certain instrumentation, a Transponder system, that indicated to him that the hijacker had parachuted from the airplane. The jet then turned around and eventually landed in Chicago without the hijacker.

It's funny, and interesting, to see how many control freaks we have here. It made perfect sense to people, that Tom Kaye wouldn't discuss anything he does. (as long as they knew about it). Or what he got from the FBI. But the second something happens that they can't control or know? Watch out! The Jelly Donuts start to fly! yahoo! Saddle up! (edit) I'm still amazed that Tom was confident he was going to publish a scientific paper. And that Sluggo still trots out this idea of "slow Science Team in Action..the way Life is Meant To Be"

Farflung, I don't think this applies but since you appear to have flown these big jets, I was wondering what you think about this: Is this true? i.e. does keeping the wheels down on a 727 allow one to use flaps 30 or 40 without getting the warning bell? Don't think it's connected to Cooper, but thought it was an interesting coincidence, if true. Rat had to lower the flaps to what was it 30? for Cooper to get the stairs down. (it's in the FBI summary from ckret) 'The warning horn will sound when any thrust lever is retarded or the flap control lever is retarded or the flap control lever is in the 30 degree or 40 degree detent with the landing gear in an "unsafe to land position." (hell: if Sluggo's thoughts on cemeteries are "good posts" then I can post on this!) (edit) I posted on this before. It was a FAA required change in 1969. details: per http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/list/69-12-02?OpenDocument Airworthiness Directive Federal Aviation Administration 14 CFR Part 39 Amendment 39-813; AD 69-12-02 BOEING 707/720 and 727 Series Airplanes DATES: Effective September 9, 1969. BOEING: Amendment 39-813: 707/720 and 727 series airplanes. Applies to all Boeing 707/720 and 727 series airplanes, as appropriate. 3. For Models 727/727C/727-200 ADD NEW PARAGRAPH HEADING

Nobody knows whats going on? Oh, I'm sorry if I contributed to that. So: what is going on? I thought the only thing that happened in the last year was that 377 did some of his cool hi opening jumps and told us about them? (edit) airtwardo and i had blows with our bars, but I will concede airtwardo's bar was supreme, bar none. I am not a standup person. No standup people are allowed in the CSG. someone posted "Sluggo pulled out" Hey, it wasn't me, who posted that. I still claim that there is no such thing as a good post here. I've not seen one yet? I don't think the thread is about "good" posts. It's just about posts.

You ask if I have a God complex. I am God. (edit) Proof: I can never be banned. (edit) Jo said "now I am telling you serious things are developing regarding Cooper" No matter how many times she does it, I will admit I get a kick out of seeing her sincerity. It's kind of like the warm fuzzy feeling you get knowing the sun will rise tomorrow.

georger said "Do you realise there are people who read this forum who knew Braden personally ... you silly ....?" Not sure if this is attempted humor or not. Okay: who are Braden's friends that read this forum? You're picking up Jo habits? or ??

altitude awareness, georger. the only time that matters is when it's heated. I read on the internet, if you don't pull before a certain height, the result isn't pretty. Although I may be wrong, after all, it's the internet.

Hey dipshit for brains. If you want to embarass me, just post the PMs you're claiming exist. You're worst then Jo. You don't have to describe the evidence. Post the evidence. Clearly I may have forgotten something, and you'll be able to prove it. Go ahead. Yes I am saying I don't think I PM'ed you.

You have read a 1973 FBI interview transcript of Braden, and the FBI disposition file? I dont recall you ever claming this before? I must have missed this! Exactly. As far as Sluggo reported, the FBI never contacted Braden. It's an example of how silly it is to listen to Jo's comments on what the FBI did or didn't do. Or Orange1's about what the FBI did or didn't do. The right answer: no one has a clue what the FBI did. Best to assume they just jerked off. (edit) I use Braden as an example, because Waugh thought he was worth investigating. If you're going to say Waugh's opinion is worth less than whoever's opinion it was that caused the FBI to interview that other SOG guy (forgot his name)...well I guess there's a difference of opinion.

Its not fear at all. Im just coming from the other end of this. I generally dont chase rainbows. But more importantly Snow and I discussed this privately, briefly (I think). I listened to what he had to say, I sympathised, I tend to stay out of people's business unless asked in, and I thought: 'well its Ckret and Snow's call'. That is all there is to this, from my perspective. I thought Sluggo might be involved. I knew Tom wasnt involved. I went on with my dinner and the day's work . . . Sorry Georger, your ass-kissing doesn't cut it. I've always thought you were an asshole. I may have PM'ed you once or twice. Heck post any and all PMs I ever sent you. I don't care. You're full of shit. (edit) I really doubt I PM'ed you on this thing. Prove me wrong. (edit) On the other hand, it's not your fault. As president-for-life of the CSG, I do have powers beyond those granted by Congress.

As confirmation of what I posted earlier from Linn Emrich's obituary, in 2002 http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20021010&slug=emrichobit10e "Pickering, 80, fondly recalled spending time with Mr. Emrich at Issaquah Skyport. His one regret: Mr. Emrich didn't call him the time five naked women leapt out of a plane." (edit) It was a 1929 Travelair in 1963 (attached)

Picture of Issaquah Parachute Center (was Skyport?) in 1980 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3384609;search_string=issaquah%20;#3384609

Did we have any previous posts about this club?? Did the FBI talk to them?? Yeah its where theparachutes were brought to the plane from. Long gone now.. but a long time home of the Seattle Skydivers. They moved from there back to Snohomish..... where I jump since its only a few miles form my house.. I posted some photos of Issaquah from the '60s from newspapers back in the thread. Some of the buildings there. Some of an old plane they used. I think I remember 377 commenting about the old plane when I posted a picture of it. Some from around when they held the Nationals at Issaquah in 1963. Two nice photos, for example, here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3437442;search_string=Issaquah%20nationals;#3437442 old picture of Linn Emrich there (2nd) I was posting then, trying to drum up anyone from those days. The lack of response was what led to my thinking the right group of people don't post here.

I still use the same reply MY instructor gave me on my 1st free-fall.

uh. I don't know how to break this to you. But the most critical thing is finding something your dog wants. If the dog doesn't like food rewards, you're not going to get anywhere with more food rewards. Hey, it's not like I'm bragging. But at least I'm out there on the pullup bar trying to create something. But all dogs like something. Some are fully entertained with a blade of grass. Just got to find that something. (and don't pass it over when you do find it, thinking you're supposed to be using food treats). (edit) oh that, and timing. Only click on the desired behavior. Then reward. Don't jump the gun and click wrong behavior. (edit) Oh yeah, and the dog always has to be winning. You don't need to be winning. What's fun in losing all the time? "Always be winning" can be thought of as a variant on "Cheat to win" :)

If trying to shape a behavior using a clicker and intermittent rewards, make sure you allow the dog to work for the reward. A common mistake is to not wait long enough. If you reward before you get the desired behavior, you're training undesired behavior.

Vegas called...it's somewhere in between a snowman's chance in hell~ and ~ walkin' away from night landing on a C-9 in an Oregon thunderstorm. I dunno...maybe I heard them wrong from Vegas, who the heck is 'Slim the Nun' ? funny. I'm picturing those as last words from airtwardo as I nervously ask going out the door on an AFF with him "so this is safe right? What are the odds everything's going to be ok?"

Lets see. You can have a rational conversation with Jo. And I am the one who doesn't make lucid posts. Is that the proposition here? Are there odds on that bet?