snowmman

Columbia, hydrology, basins, geology, water, tides, etc etc etc ..... and yet railroad tracks used daily in 1971 run right behind Tina Bar back up to the Scotton area a prime DZ if you accept a later timeframe for the drop. During the Manhattan days a set of train tracks ran right into Alomorgodo and out to one of the research facilities and every now and then a bum would get off a train wondering where he was and looking for a free lunch.... in spite of every train being heavily guarded. The bums were always asked: "How did you get here?" even though the answer was obvious. It was a routine question that had to be asked (part of the protocols). The answer is every case was: "I came via the Columbia" ! well that's a theory. jump, get on a train, lose some money at Tena Bar. Like I say, why do people prefer complicated scenarios, when the simple ones aren't excluded? Another transport system is the storm drains. I used to crawl them as a kid. Another is bicycle. Easier to steal bicycles sometimes. But why create that complexity? it's not needed?

georger said "And there is nothing about the money find at Tina Bar which requires a Columbia landing or makes it more probable (that I know of). " When there was just 3 bundles at Tena Bar, I was a fan of plant theories. But everything seems to confirm that additional small fragments were found. Also it seems that information was lost within the FBI over time, so that "three bundles with rubber bands only" became the myth? (edit) I say this because we pressed Ckret on it repeatedly, and he always said "just 3 bundles". Because of the fragments, I think that aligns to Columbia landing. I don't think there's any other water travel theory that makes sense. I think all river transport theories don't make sense. (partly because no flight path connects to a good river theory. And no Lewis River theory makes sense)

georger said "a. the money found at Tina Bar. b. Cooper vanished." If you're saying I'm saying you need to analyze money travel and Cooper travel separately. Yes. Everyone kind of agreed it was unlikely, because of the half-baked bag+rope, that the two would stay together long. Like Gordon Gekko told us, when he was investigating Cooper: "You're walking around blind without a cane, pal. A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place."

Just so you know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wssUJKRFBEg

The kind of reply I have come to expect - WHAT are you guys going to do if I am right - I am more right than wrong only about some of the theories I chased...which only hurt me , but the it was OK for Carr to theorize because he is FBI...and he does not have a clue who Cooper was. I have sent pictures and what I have been able to find to someone who will be able to chase down what I am looking for. Sure - maybe this is just is just an old book - but whatever it is or was - it was important to Duane. 377 thinks there's someone out there who will talk to him at parties. Who will be successful first? You finding someone who will research Duane's little brown book, or 377 talking about vectoring rounds back in the day, to some Norwegian wingsuiter who made her way thru college serving drinks in an Icelandic bar? I don't know. It's an interesting wager.

Interestingly I was last night watching a documentary on a flood at a town called Laingsburg in 1981. One river leading into another down to the sea a few hundred km's away would have been the water flow. 72 bodies were never found. Yeah, the weird thing about all of this, is why do people chase the complicated scenarios, when the simple ones can't be excluded? Tosaw kind of argued that, and I don't think he had as much data as we do. I don't think Tosaw had the flight path, for instance (he would have published it in his book??) Even Ckret seemed confident that the simple answer was not possible, when he seemed to think he needed expert hydrologists to track water flow from inland.

Apparently Jack Murdock's death was faked so they could create this charitable trust. Maybe Duane Weber killed him? Probably. http://www.murdock-trust.org/trust-profile/jack-murdock.php You can tell he was a scheming bastard, from the link above: "Jack Murdock was both an idealist and a realist and a life-long seeker of new insights. He believed in science as a main source of knowledge, and knowledge as a key ingredient to addressing and solving the issues and challenges of our world. He was thoroughly unpretentious, soft-spoken, and a listener. He possessed a rare combination of good judgment, hard work, tolerance, life-long learning, and scrupulous honesty. He practiced philanthropy through his own private foundation that existed until the Murdock Trust was formed." Jack wrote an autobiography at age 16. There may be clues in it, here: (from 1934) http://www.murdock-trust.org/murdock-documents/trust-profile/jack-murdock/Autobiography-1934.pdf Note his real name was Melvin Jack Murdock. His mother's name was Mae M. Murdock.

So how did Jack Murdock disappear and how is this tied to the 305 hijacking. Intriguing. He couldn't have drowned. His body would have been found. (edit) "May 16, 1971 when he wasn't able to get his seaplane back in the air after landing at Miller's Cove on the Columbia and it tipped over on a stormy day in May. The treacherous undertow soon carried him and his plane out of sight. The plane was later recovered. Jack was last seen precariously clinging to a float. His body was never found. " (edit) I guess I was thinking of Miller's Landing?? (sp?) Apparently Jack staged his death (according to Amazon) near Maryhill " ... which also has grown since his one-engine float plane overturned on the Columbia River near Maryhill on May 1971 Murdock was presumed drowned. ... " (edit) WOW! Maryhill is 100 miles EAST of Portland...farther from the ocean! So Amazon's right...why was Murdock's death faked? You should see all the stuff that was done in his memory. This needs to be on Coast to Coast. This is BIG! I wonder if any if the driftwood on the Columbia is Larch?

So Tek was having issues at the time.... Do you know how many times a plane crash has been used for people wishing to escape from their current lifeinto a new one? I notice most of the things you were talking about in there...were about the bodies being FOUND. If someone drowns.. yes they can be down for a while... especially when the water is cold.. but when it does warm up... the swell.. the float.. they wash up. Spring Chinook season can get interesting on the Willamette and the Columbia. Yeah, some of those links were when I was just looking. They do not get found for some weeks sometimes. But you're right, I don't know for sure. (edit) I spent some time once looking for more cases, but realized that the newspapers weren't sufficient to get exact numbers. I do know that Jack Murdock wasn't found, (I think the last reference I had was at least 9 years after the incident? maybe even later?) If you're saying Jack Murdock was murdered by Duane Weber or Duane Weber helped him disappear, yeah I guess that's possible. I'm comfortable with believing some of the drowned victims aren't found, from what I read. I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Tom Kaye believes all the non-found bodies are ground up by propellers and eaten by diatoms.

377 was asking about party patter. Jerry: I don't think the above works at parties, nowadays. Gotta work in a wingsuit reference.

You throw the dog a bone and he runs off and disappears to eat it?

Larry Carr was not the one to introduce the Dan Cooper Comic or the Loadmaster theory - ONE of you did. Yes, I run the FBI. What I post becomes FBI theory. (note I posted on the history of the comic book/DBC connection. It was in another thread/forum first...not here) well, as Sluggo says, we're all serious researchers, so I'm assuming everyone else also bought Dan Cooper comic books? Am I the only one with a 1971 Northwest Orient System Timetable? I missed out by being cheap from getting one real close to 11/71, but mine is pretty close (I scanned it and posted it before..I could have sworn the Nat Geo documentary got their NWA flight paths for the animation from my scan...those bastards!)

you mean like Belgium, Jo? that would be odd.

link to another prior post I made referencing jumpers in the Columbia http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3480993;search_string=Longview;#3480993

there was another posting I made about suicide jumpers that showed how far up the Columbia a body went before being discovered by fisherman. (a recent jumper off I-5) I think it was all the way to Longview. (which is halfway to the ocean) Surprising. Main point: people who think "they just know" what happens when a body goes into the Columbia, especially back in 1971, are just guessing.

I added a link to my original posting, just above Tektronix. Jack Murdock. (Miller's Cove is right by Caterpillar Island, right? (if memory serves)) There was also a plane crash in Sauvie Island we discussed where the bodie apparently wasn't found. and some suicide jumpers. We also discussed a news report where fire or police chief was quoted saying suicide jumper bodies are routinely brought up when the big boats come into the Williamette..i.e. they stay down there until something displaces them. (they just got some around the fleet week or whatever they call it)

People dissappear for many reasons. Everyone falls back on sounding like Jo when they have no data. If you're saying you have data that proves all drowning victims in that area in the '70s were found, just show it. (edit) or anything that suggests the ones that weren't found, maybe didn't drown, but just "disappeared". Otherwise you're just B.S.ing, which is fine. But, it means you can't complain when others B.S. (edit) If you're implying that that Textronix executive, for example, didn't drown, well, now you're really in the conspiracy camp with Jo. (edit) The Jack Murdock case I posted about (among others) here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3679874;search_string=tektronix;#3679874

Farflung said "By not asking about winds aloft, my lack of jump experience may be shining bright." Why ask about winds aloft? I mean if you don't jump they're going to shoot you. You gotta jump. It's not like the winds are going to dramatically change, or you've got hours to fly around looking for good wind. If you gotta go no matter what, you gotta go. What are you going to do if you don't like the wind? Pray to Snowmman? Stay on the plane and give the interview to newsmen after LE arrests you? ... "Hey, the winds were just a little too much for safety, but next time I'll pull it off. I'm not going to risk my personal safety just to hijack a plane".

Note that since the FBI has not investigated me, I am guilty of no crimes. Additional evidence: I have not been banned. (edit) Additional evidence: Jo Weber said I was not rude or insulting. That, and a promise from the Dalai Lama of: "when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

amazon said " No body ever found along the river... leads me to surmise he did not land in the water and drown. " Amazon: I posted a couple of cases of drownings in the Columbia, in that area, (including one around the time period) where the body was never found. One was an plane. Textronix executive and his girlfriend. The claims of "the body would be found" are not accurate.

377 pondered whether something about the FBI and what evidence they might have, could be gleaned from their actions. Examine this: Larry Carr put the Dan Cooper comic book thing out there all over the place, just based on a whim and a prayer as far as I can see. Was that decision based on anything more? compared to the probable random guessing about loadmaster? My belief is that people's thinking on this is constantly skewed by a belief that the FBI's actions represent something "informed". I think it's much better to just assume the FBI's actions were random and misinformed and should be ignored. There's nothing about the FBI's actions, as gleaned from news reports, that suggests I should pay attention to them. Think about the interview Bruce did with the FBI agent that was actually at the money find, and his comments about pieces found. I really think Ckret thought the only stuff found was the 3 bundles. Ckret didn't have a clue about the other pieces found later, as far as I can tell. You can extend this to the flight map, and Himmelsbach comments that seemed blissfully unaware of such key data. (edit) Another example: there were a couple of suspects examined whose age was just way wrong. How come?

I guess we're way out on the speculation curve anyhow. If for instance, Ckret and FBI were right about Cooper wanting to jump earlier, then maybe a panicked "time to jump" decision masks any information we could glean or deduce from "where". But of course, if we believe Ckret and FBI about Cooper wanting to jump earlier, what does that tell us?

Jumpers have training that shows them how to steer a parachute and how to find a suitable landing area. If they get thrown out at night and can't see what is below them - especially if they have not jumped where they planned - I can't necessarily see anything that would make a difference between where jumpers and (previous) non-jumpers would land. We discussed visibility before. As I recall, consensus was that the river would have been hard to identify from above. Amazon, others with night jumps in non-civilian DZ areas... any comments - would the river have been clear to a jumper under the weather conditions listed? So the only feedback is from your eyes and steering? What about pre-planning: i.e. I know there's a big river near Portland. Make sure you jump before or after Portland. Not near it. Rivers are bad. Wouldn't that reflect training I could use, even if I only suspected where Portland was? Or do jumpers not think like that?

How? The two have nothing to do with each other outside of random probability in a scenario where the jumper has no idea where he is, in the first place? I'm assuming jumpers have some training that would decrease their likelihood of jumping into the Columbia. If you're saying jumpers and non-jumpers are equally likely to land in the Columbia, okay. my opinion: no. I don't need to know the "why" ...just if you threw jumpers up and nonjumpers up, I think the nonjumpers would more likely end in the Columbia.

So, hangdiver, if you can't get the pictures, how about a reference that shows why I think he worked the ride operator job on the Bubbleator? (edit) bonus points: what jumpships did he use in Saigon? (edit) bonus points: name of first wife. (edit) bonus points: name a skydiver that has jumped with him.