snowmman

So you're thinking Cooper had smokejumper experience? That would be odd. I mean, when would Cooper have had freefall experience? Smokejumpers static-lined back then right? So you're thinking a static-lining smokejumper hijacked 305 and jumped out in the night? No free-fall experience beforehand at all? What does your girlfriend think? Wait, just give me her home phone, and I'll call her and said you thought we should have dinner and talk. Does she like wine? (edit) with regard to posting. I'm guessing that sometimes there are beginners, and they ask "how can you have so many jumps" and you don't quite know what to say, and just smile? well...

Yes. He is saying that if you don't blow it up with an overspeed deployment, the PC is the better canopy. The C9 is far stronger. If I had to deploy above 150 kts I'd take the C9. Funny, with all the huge advances in canopy tech, fighter pilots still use C9s or their equivalent. 377 What was the probable descent rate for the pioneer (if it was a PC, maybe a mark 2 by then?) compared to the 28' C-9...assuming 200 lb load. It seems like Ckret did the evaluation of "better" on a crazy set of criteria. (look at his strident statements. They're loud, but lacking in "why"...like who's going to be steering a PC at night?) ..and you couldn't tell from the outside if the NB-6 had a deployment sleeve? If any were non-military, they might have had a deployment sleeve...why was Ckret so adamant about the sleeve thing being "obvious"...heck Cossey's NB-6 had a rip mod and a 28' canopy! pretty non-standard!

B66 ???? Now that's a RARE jumpship. How would you exit? Bomb bay? 377 I can't find the report. The summary I snipped was here http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0484799 (edit) they used some live, some test dummies. See the link.

Ckret made a number of posts where he appeared pissed off at the thread...like people here "just didn't get it" and apparently he did. In hindsight, it's really funny to go back and look at Ckret's posts. He posted a long one here, summarizing his viewpoint on Mar 29, 2008 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3167547;search_string=pioneer;#3167547 including choice paragraphs like: "We have some breaks in the case to go over and actually I am surprised none of you caught it. Now more than ever I believe Cooper lost his money in the air and screwed into the ground without ever pulling." I believe this for all of the reasons I have posted in the past that I don't have the energy to repost and the following:" ... "Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't. " The funny part is how he closed it: "Now what? We have to find the farthest northwest location that the bag could have landed and emptied into the Washougal Water Shed, keeping in mind the 77 flood. next we have to drop a canvass bag of money from 10,000 feet and see how far it travels under conditions. Then we have to take that data and extrapolate it to 11/24/71. With these two items we can find a new flight path and location of the pressure bump. With that, we can come up with a new AB line and if cooper did a no pull locate his resting place at the new point A. To find out who he was, we need a list of all who served on flight crews out of McChord from 46 to 51. I think we can rule out pilots, even if they were not jumpers they have to much awareness of the forces at play and would have thought better of the jump or did it like McCoy. Once we have that list, find all from 5'10 to 6'1 brown hair, brown eyes. Then a quick background, if they were alive after 11/71 they can be ruled out. If they disappeared after 1971 then we have a suspect. The first part is do-able, the second will take some huge effort and the cooperation of those who have other things to worry about right now." (edit) I would note that I'm the first post on the page, again.

Yeah I can't imagine it could be 1957 though. From what I read: the Para-Commander was first demo'ed at the '63 nationals in Issaquah, but not sold until later? I'm not sure if the Pioneer was a Para-Commander though. (edit) although if Cossey was using it as a sport rig in '71, you would think it would have a PC in it??? I'm looking at "Performance Evaluation of Para-Commander Mark 1 Personnel Parachute" by the Air Force Flight Test Center Edwards AFB CA, dated Jun 1966. (USAF Report FTC-TR-66-16) This is interesting: "The Pioneer Para-Commander Mark 1 24-ft. diameter parachute was tested. A total of 246 tests was made using a B-66, a C-130, a C-47 and an H-21 aircraft. Launch velocities varied from minimum (near-zero) to 225 KCAS and launch pressure altitudes ranged from 1000 to 35,000 ft." "It is also recommended that launch altitude should not be less than 1000 ft above ground level with a one-second delay to pack opening, nor should the parachute be deployed above 150 KCAS at 1000 ft pressure altitude." We had talked about the recommended deployment limits before. Funny, this report isn't available as pdf (accession number AD0484799). (33 pages) It makes no sense that Cossey would say his Pioneer was the superior rig. Why did he say that so much in the newspapers? Was Cossey saying "If Cooper delayed until he achieved stable terminal, and then deployed, the Pioneer would have been the superior rig?"

Really??? Only heard??? mccurley wins the award for greatest time between two posts by an individual to the DBC thread. I'm not sure it's an award to brag about, but maybe it is. (postings run by teams are in a separate category).

happythoughts said "A what? I'm not making an argument. I was making a jest." A jest on the DBC thread? Now I know you're lying. A jest would be off-topic, and no off-topic posts are allowed. Two people questioned the idea of posting too much. Rather than worrying about posting too much, one should worry about not posting enough. That's why Cooper hasn't been caught. I mean, think about it, how could 100,000 posts be done, and it not be figured out? Even if there are three governments involved in the conspiracy.. (why does Jo stop at the USA? Is she covering up something or just misinformed?)

Now that it is definitely an ad hominen. An ad hominem argument has the basic form: Person 1 makes claim X There is something objectionable about Person 1 Therefore claim X is false The first premise is called a 'factual claim' and is the pivot point of much debate. The contention is referred to as an 'inferential claim' and represents the reasoning process. There are two types of inferential claim, explicit and implicit. The fallacy does not represent a valid form of reasoning because even if you accept both co-premises, that does not guarantee the truthfulness of the contention. This can also be thought of as the argument having an un-stated co-premise. Although, the ad hominem argument is not a fallacy despite there being fallacious instances of the argument. (edit) from wikipedia.

falcon and snowman writeup says "Boyce, an expert in the sport of falconry-- thus, the nickname "Falcon"-- gets a job at a civilian defense contractor (TRW, though it is called "RTX" in the movie) working in the so-called "Black Vault", a secure communication facility through which flows information on some of the most classified U.S. operations in the world. Boyce becomes disillusioned with the U.S. government through his new position, especially after reading a misrouted communiqué dealing with the CIA's plan to depose the Prime Minister of Australia" "As the pair become increasingly involved with espionage, Lee's ambition to create a major espionage business coupled with his excessive drug use began alienating the two men from each other, and their Soviet handler becomes increasingly reluctant to deal through Lee as the middleman because of Lee's periods of irrationality." What a bunch of B.S. That could never happen.

look hangdiver. There's no way Orange1 will jump with me at the 2011 40-year anniversary of Coopers' jump unless you give me the thumbs up. So there's no way Cooper could have email, right? Simple question. (edit) hey that last two word sentence sounds so Jerry-Thomas-esque, doesn't it? I need to throw in a Jo jab, though for authenticity. (edit) evidence of my assertion: Duane is dead. Braden is dead. Tosaw is dead. Himmelsbach, not dead.

377 said "This Duane/Cooper as mythic is really interesting. It may explain the amazingly long lasting public fascination with DBC." I would have preferred if Duane had jumped naked. Then we would have been able to talk about Eastern mystics, and yogis sitting in the cold on snow, walking barefoot etc. I think the loafers and raincoat were a cheat.

WHO did you babysit? Flo, the Progressive girl. She had two sisters. It comes up intermittently. It's not my fault I have a lot of brags. Like Dizzy Dean said, it's not bragging if its true.

Odysseus is one of the first Greek mythic heroes renowned for his brain as well as his muscle. Indeed he is a man with an inquiring mind, and he is also a man with outstanding prowess and bravery. We also must not forget that he is a top-notch athlete which only adds more to this seemingly insuperable character. It is no wonder why many scholars refer to Odysseus as a powerful mythic hero. Odysseus often hesitates before acting, because he uses his reason and gift to evaluate things. This patience is one of his most important additional attributes. This has saved him and his men many of times, and it can be easily seen in various instances throughout his travels such as when he disguised himself as a beggar when he finally reached Ithaca, waiting for the right moment to reveal himself. As great as he was, Odysseus still had some weaknesses that prolonged his voyage back to Ithaca. His most important weakness that he possess is that of his pride. Pride is good to have, but in Odysseus' case he had to much of it. This is clearly evident in the episode on the cyclopes' island. When Odysseus and his men are clearly safe away from the island Odysseus braggs about his exploit. Polythemus hears this and hurls giant boulders in the direction of the ship. A couple came very close to sinking the ship. Still that was not enough for Odysseus. Carried away in his pride he unwisely gave away his identity to Polythemus. With that Polythemus called upon his father, Poseidon, to punish the man who had harmed him. That incident hurt Odysseus more than losing a few men, because Poseidon made his travel home ever so longer and arduous. Yet another weakness of our hero is his sensualness. Odysseus enjoys women. He stayed with Circe for one year before his men reminded him of home. He also stayed with Calypso for seven years. Although we must take into thought that there were some other reasons why he stayed with her for so long, like that she was an immortal and he didn't want to have her against him. Nonetheless, Odysseus survived all that happened to him. His courage, wits, and endurance enabled him to come through each and every difficulty and arrive home safely.

I just noticed, that in one of the popup ads here, is an actress, that I used to babysit when I was in highschool. I've got that also, going for me.

377 said "In troubled times we need to worship heroes. Duane, according to Jo, was the ultimate hero." Since Homer and the Illiad, we've needed the epic story. It's not just about heroes. It's about the story telling. The hero has to go into battle, and somehow make it back against all odds to tell the story. Duane did that. (well, Jo did that for Duane). Cooper had to have lived. So he could tell the epic story. from wikipedia Kleos is the concept of glory earned in heroic battle For my mother Thetis the goddess of silver feet tells me I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either, if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans, my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting; but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers, the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly.

Jo, I really am not writing anything or assisting any authors. If any movie or TV producers want a 727 jet jump dummy I'd likely go for it, but I'd use Snow as a Wind Drift Indicator. Remember those WDIs Amazon? Snow's slanderous expose of my past was really a breach of confidence. I am not one to lawyer up though. I am in the one step program. My name is 377. I am a jump junkie. I accept my past and am trying to become a better person: one jump at a time. 377 You know how you talked about my decades of experience with cheat to win? Well, your post above shows your decades of experience with lying, and just validates my post. I rest my case.

well that's new information then, (ckret may have misposted, but I copied exactly what he posted) So: what pioneer "sport" rigs were manufactured 9/57 with d-rings? were any?

weird. I come in after using my chainsaw and airtwardo is mentioning chainsaws. When someone mentioned a 21' 2-1/2" rusty gas pipe, I realized I have a 20' gas pipe on my junk pile, rusty, but it's only like 1-1/4" maybe 1-1/2" O.D. how are you guys watching me? Is Jo involved? Or the mysterious "granter"? Not to worry snowmman.. he is referring back to this "incident" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3563597#3563597 OUCH! That is nasty. amazon! protective gear! I wear the chaps, gloves, helmet, face mask. Legs are the most common injury..

No idea I am not a rigger. Therre were a lot of 26' and 28' canopies over the years. It would be easy to spot a pilot rig from a sport rig... most sport rigs back in the day had D rings up front to clip the belly mounted reserve onto. That type of rig would be easy to spot the difference. Most emergency rigs the USAF and NAVY used did not have those on them. They did have rigs that were designed for those with jump training that did have the D rings for the front mount reserve. People who were on jump status got to use those for training or other operations. When you come up for doing your jump training I would be happy to show you all the different types.. I have a LOT of them yeah, we've been thru this a lot, just thought you might not have read all the pages in the thread :) The pioneer did have D rings. So I guess all the language describing it as a "sport rig" was correct. There was also a mention of padding (even from Cossey I believe). So what sport rig would have 226 associated with it, in 1971? was the 9/57 a manufacture date? Seems not..that would be too early for sport rigs probably.

weird. I come in after using my chainsaw and airtwardo is mentioning chainsaws. When someone mentioned a 21' 2-1/2" rusty gas pipe, I realized I have a 20' gas pipe on my junk pile, rusty, but it's only like 1-1/4" maybe 1-1/2" O.D. how are you guys watching me? Is Jo involved? Or the mysterious "granter"? (edit) airtwardo: poser! no use jumping with a chainsaw without gas and oil too! go thru a tank pretty quick.

Ckret posted way back in the thread: Pioneer type 226 sn 9/57 was left on the plane Amazon: does "type 226" mean anything to you? (edit) I just had a new thought. Could the 26 have meant it held a 26' canopy? Did Pioneer do rigs with 26' canopies then? It's unclear to me whether the Pioneer was a pilot emergency rig or a sport rig.

Most of my C-9 jumps were with unsleeved canopies but most sport rigs of the time did have a sleeve or a bag of some type... yup I still have a few of the old pins and cones in my collection When ckret was here, he kept saying crazy things about how the rig selection implied something about Cooper. Most people disagreed. Ckret liked to say what a bad idea it would have been to take the unsleeved canopy (assuming the Pioneer rig was sleeved..we've never been able to identify the Pioneer precisely..I'll find that post though) From looking at a NB-6 on the outside, there's no way to tell whether it's sleeved or not, right? In 1971, you'd just say "looks good, probably the same as other military emergency rigs, maybe even one I've jumped?" I always thought it was odd that ckret wanted to imply knowledge about the insides, just from looking at the outsides.

Amazon said "Its also important to stuff the parachute and sleeve containing it into the top of those rigs while packing it" supposedly no sleeve on Cooper's rig. 28' C-9 in a NB-6 container. Amazon: ever jump something like that? (the NB-6 normally gets a 26' canopy, apparently)

Orange1: I'm back to assuming hangdiver was lying. Otherwise how can you explain his absence? He must have been lying.

farflung: cooper also had an unused belly container from the one reserve. (edit) We've debated whether the large hooks on the back would clip over harness webbing (without the right ring attachments) Here's a funny thing: Scott never said much. But he gave a talk that was reported on, where he had an odd description of Cooper dealing with the money, that isn't in agreement with what we've been told. Also Scott wouldn't have seen Cooper with the money, so it was odd. the weird thing was that Scott had Cooper taking the money out of the bag and repackaging it, or trying something. I think though, that probably isn't correct.