snowmman

377 said "Imagine if a cheap TV antenna preamp radiating spurious signals can cause this much accidental GPS havoc, what you could do with an well designed jammer." Well thanks for the complement 377, but our design isn't that sophisticated. We just figured "satellite transmitter in outer space vs transmitter on earth...how much stronger do you have to be to cause havoc and how easy is it to do that?" hey do you remember the guy who took over the TV transmission back 11/22/1987 (note it was two days before the anniversary of the Cooper hijack) The video he sent is available on youtube. desribed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom_broadcast_signal_intrusion_incident Known as the Max Headroom incident. Snowmman Industries was not caught. I mean involved. it's great fun to see the actual event here: (there were 2 I think) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj1mUk04_ho there was also the Captain Midnight satellite downlink thing John R. MacDougall (born c. 1961) also known as Captain Midnight, is a Florida electronic engineer and business owner, who jammed HBO's satellite signal in 1986 to broadcast a message protesting their rates for satellite dish owners. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Midnight_(HBO)

Did we cover fully the option that dredge debris at Tina Bar included material from some other site, specifically the mouth of the Lewis brought to Tina Bar ...? It's pretty clear in the articles the FBI was still thinking about a Lewis-Tina Bar connection if some connection could be found. Bruce failed to ask Schreuder "where" the Tina Bar material came from .... That's pretty funny you mention that. I threw out that theory very early on, partly tongue in cheek. Ckret gave me a hard time on it. You can see here. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3169622;search_string=lewis%20dredge;#3169622 Note Ckret seemed to not grasp the idea that 3 bundles could be stuck together. He seemed to want to think of the bundles as dry items that would travel independently. And that they would only get "aligned" when deposited on Tena Bar. Ckret's thinking had a lot of flaws. (edit) at that url, you can see Ckret introduces a random theory/requirement? of bundle independence turning into bundle alignment. he posted: So the theory that bundles independent of each other were sucked up north of the Lewis from the bottom of the Columbia... There's no data that says the 3 bundles that were stuck together at Tena bar, were independent earlier and came together later somehow. They likely were adjacent from start to finish. Also of interest is what I posted about dredge spoils sites. Here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3169371;search_string=lewis%20dredge;#3169371 Although, since we learned that pipeline dredges were more likely used (rather than hopper) long distance transport seems less likely.

I was wondering if Geoffrey Gray's Cooper book is going to be accurate, new or complete or ??? He seems to write a lot of crime stories. A recent one about Tackmann is interesting. Can see a list of his recent articles here (from NY magazine) http://nymag.com/nymag/author_200/

We have a lot of photos of the money find location in 1980. While we don't have perfect precision, I think we have a pretty good idea of the money find location. Some of the articles out there, imply Tom Kaye had access to technology (GPS) or information that allowed him to pinpoint the location better than anyone else could. I don't think that's true. He had access to Brian Ingram. Brian was a kid then. What information did Tom Kaye have, that we don't, that would improve his locating ability? I guess he also talked to Fazio. What am I missing? Does anyone really think Tom Kaye has some measurement of "money location" vs "dredge spoils" that we don't have? If so, what information is he using, and why do we not have it? Sounds like B.S. to me. (edit) I also wonder if people think physically being at the site added value. If so, what? The area isn't obscured by tree canopy, and we have a lot of satellite photos from over the years. Why would Tom Kaye's site visit have added any information?

Yeah that's possible. Maybe he jumped after the Columbia? Regardless of whether the briefcase was there, the dispersal across 20 yards radius (or diameter?) underneath sand, makes it hard for me to believe any "drift/float to Tena Bar" theory. I mean doesn't it seems like it has to be shredded up a bit mechanically? It doesn't seem to me that natural forces would do that 20 yard dispersal under sand. (edit) we wrestled a bit early in the thread with "what are the facts". Sluggo proposed the gold standard of "what Ckret tells us". It sure seems like there is no gold standard, and it's unclear what the full breadth of possible "facts" are.

377 said "Petey has some inconsistencies in his stories." well beyond inconsistencies, if there are any (1971 w/FBI?, or current FBI?..is that info from Petey or who?) it's always interesting when someone provides a lot of detail about their life, but then leaves out some parts. I always wonder why the left out parts, were left out?

We continually come back to implicating 377 377 admitted, under enhanced interrogation techniques "I used to see the Biddle a lot when I was fishing near SF" 377...out with everything..Confess! We have ways, you know... Ha! Then we'll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!

uhh volume of money + frags = volume of brief case ? If no then that implies . . . if the briefcase is false memory (which would be odd.. the guy had a lot of detail, like not all of the briefcase, just some of it)... the real question is: why did Ckret, minimally, not give us the real detail on the shards? He continually said just the 3 bundles. I think he just didn't know. If he didn't know, could he not know about the leather briefcase? There's a whole set of records in Portland? Were they transferred to Seattle? Maybe that's the problem?

It was scheduled before the money find. It happened immediately after the money find. he had to retire at 55, the fbi retirement age. Money was found 2/10/1980 Himmelsbach retired 2/28/1980 (Fri..got exact date at 2nd link) Last day of the month in Feb. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SvIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VMwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=952,2900302&dq=himmelsbach+retirement&hl=en this link says retired Fri..paper was Sat. 3/1/1980 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JccsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4759,15754&dq=himmelsbach+retirement&hl=en

You reported that Dorwin said "Bedell" There is no "Bedell" There was a "Biddle" It was involved in a collision in 1977 with the SS Hawaiian in fog on the Columbia. (at Astoria, OR) http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CzgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UDIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=3392,3918319&dq=columbia+river+dredge&hl=en (edit) The Biddle, built in 1947, is a 351 foot vessel with a 60-foot beam and a depth of 30 feet. It is used to maintain the Columbia river bar about five months per year. It spends 4 1/2 months maintaining the San Francisco bar, and the other 1 1/2 months working at other major west coast harbors (1977) from http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3qkSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9_gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4524,1967726&dq=columbia+river+dredge&hl=en I don't think the Biddle was used there in 1974. sounds like the Biddle is used out where the Columbia hits the ocean, at the bar. (which is why the collision was by Astoria) Maybe ask Dorwin about the Biddle again. It doesn't make sense.

Could the dredge have chewed up the briefcase from the channel and spit it out also? Is the idea that the money was just a couple of bundles inside the briefcase? So maybe just the briefcase was lost??? (edit) I just read the rest of your report. so maybe his memory is wrong? But maybe its right? Who knows! Bruce reported: Outside of the 20-yard circle the shard finds diminished. Then they brought in the backhoes, but did not find any more shards of money. However, Dorwin also said that they found “part of the leather briefcase – enough to contain the bundle that the little boy found (Brian Ingram).” Dorwin continued to talk about the briefcase throughout our conversation, mentioning it several times, and specifically said that the portion they had retrieved was “about a third to half of the briefcase.”

(edit) Bruce: why would the SF office trigger a look at Petey "a few years ago"? Ckret wasn't on the case then. What would have triggered such an event? Petey had already been back in the country from China for a couple of years. This sounds suspicious. Were they lying? Could it have been triggered just a year ago? (11/2008) bruce reported "but Petey has been investigated twice by the FBI in conjunction to Norjak. First in 1971, just days after the heist, and then a few years ago by the Bureau's San Francisco office, who had three agents investigating him and got DNA samples (voluntarily, I believe) from him. Not sure on the results or findings. I have asked the SF PIO for an update, but somehow they have not gotten around to calling me. " This is great detail Bruce. We've rarely heard about people who got a serious lookover from the FBI. How did they find Petey in 1971? He wasn't in the USA, right? Could that be an untruth? All we get is the stuff about Duane from Jo. Nice to see reasonable suspects got a look over. Really interesting if they looked at him so early in 1971. Maybe I need to change my opinion of the FBI investigation back then! (but not of Ckret!)

Bruce reported "Dorwin also said that the dredger “Bedell” was parked off-shore in the Columbia, and he concluded as self-evident that the money had been shredded by the dredge and thrown up on the beach as part of deposition of material. " The money was 1980, the dredging with 1974. I don't think they were dredging in 1980. I'll have to look into this. Maybe he's misremembering. Bruce: maybe you have to call back on this?. There was no dredge parked right there on the photos we have that look out across the columbia on the money find days in 1980. (just the channel buoy)

I'll state the obvious, but Ckret was apparently clueless about the real details of the money find. It may be that stuff didn't get written down for the Seattle files, or Ckret didn't read something. But in any case, these new facts totally change the complexion of things, in my opinion. I was surprised to see "thousands" mentioned (that's probably a bit of hyperbole, but who knows? it's consistent with what people were saying the Fazios said???) All this seems amazingly consistent with what one might guess at for money thru the dredge. Doesn't it seem, from all the stuff we know about Himmelsbach now, that Himmelsbach was clue-free also? So Himmelsbach was clue-free, which led to Jo being clue-free, and Jerry Thomas being clue-free. Blind leading blind.

This stuff is just great! Bruce reported "In that initial search they found “thousands of teeny shards of money the size of a man’s fingernail, up to the size of a silver dollar.” Dorwin said the pieces were well-preserved and layered in clean sand. “No matter how deep we dug we found money – homogeneously mixed to a great depth.” Dorwin said that most agents were digging at a depth of 1.5-2 feet deep and that they dug at least four holes “at least four deep.” He said they found shards in most holes and evenly placed all the way to the depth of four feet. "

I'm just at the first paragraph of Bruce's Dorwin interview, and it's great..I'm tingling. I love seeing a professional at work. Sounds like the phone call was fun, Bruce! still reading!

bruce said "BTW: Georger, I loved the Sultans of Swing rap bit.. Bring it on, Brother. " hey bruce great to have you back..that was my bit..I'm impressed you got the source song right. It was kinda cool huh? kind of like slam poetry..it works even if you're not thinking of the song. I meant to start with "money for nothing, chicks for free" but landed on Sultans by accident..they've got a similar rhythm no? .... thinking of jo's mythology of duane as the song-singing, free-drink-getting, girl-pregnant-making ranger-jumper-hanging, dog-about-town...but the Sultans of Swing thing worked good. I've got to read your post in detail now.

For the simple woman: "Special Agent Dorwyn Schreuder, in charge of the beach search, said some fragments were found as deep as three feet below the surface." ERG 2-13-80. Codeword: NORJAK NA-330-5756836325B - NB Georger: you didn't submit an expense report for the last month. please expedite. Also: still need projected expenses for this year's budget, including the "special project" with the writer. also, I wasn't kidding: the correct spelling is Dorwin Schreuder. That newswriter got it wrong. You can see from all the relevant hits on Dorwin in the '80s FBI Portland office, that Dorwin is correct. here http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Dorwin+Schreuder+fbi (edit) I'm actually wondering about Dorwin's role, since he was cited as "spokesman" so much in the '80s. But he was a FBI negotiator on the Tripp thing. So maybe they mix field work and spokesman work or he transitioned into that? (edit) It's interesting how much Jo depends on her Himmelsbach connection. Just like Jerry Thomas. It's like Himmelsbach cultivated these kind of people. (Ckret doing the same thing with Tom Kaye?)

I just found this choice tidbit http://www.bellinghamherald.com/102/story/875464.html ""We are looking at everything," said Carol Abraczinskas, a scientific illustrator who teaches at the University of Chicago Midway. She didn't know much about Cooper but became fascinated after hearing Kaye talk about the case during a break at a convention." Maybe Tom is more of a player than we realized? There's also a weird statement in there, that a Frisbee was in play when the money was found: "an Arkansas man who discovered $5,800 of the loot in $20 bills while throwing a Frisbee on the banks of the Columbia River when he was 8 years old."

This is a slightly interesting article from 2/14/80 after the money find... http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=f5QSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1886,5625&dq=cooper+money+hijack&hl=en Jack Pringle, who was in charge of the Seattle FBI office, makes some odd comments .."It's all from one bundle" and that Cooper had been given "several bundles of money"...but I don't think that really means anything. He repeats the statement about additional fragments found. Pringle played down the fragments, because it sounds like he wanted to see more bundles. That's interesting, because he's in the Seattle FBI office. So that means, the Portland office must have called the Seattle office and told them about fragments. Jo has tried to say there were misquotes by newspaper people. (Jo apparently knows because of her nefarious relationship with Himmelsbach. Jerry Thomas has a similar nefarious relationship. Maybe Himmelsbach goes both ways?) I'm not sure how a Seattle FBI guy gets quoted about fragments in Portland, unless Portland FBI talked to Seattle FBI. And this is the head guy in Seattle. Not some flunky. He also talks about the FBI regrouping to Seattle to decide what to do next. Also mentions that the agents "combed" several thousand yards of the beach. I don't know what that means, whether it's volumes of sand (cubic yards) or they walked a couple thousand yards looking for stuff (probably can't walk that far, so maybe an estimate of what they dug?) (edit) it's also possible that the Seattle office decided all the fragments were from the 3 bundles? I'm not sure how they could have decided that. Maybe that was part of the bad information starting? (edit) The idea that Portland FBI agents didn't get all their info to Seattle, might make sense why some details of the dig were lost? (attached)

georger said "Jo is upset. She sees the contradiction between her account and the facts recently revealed ... and there will be more coming." We've moved from random books, to Duane the young pipeline worker, hanging with rangers and jumpers, banging girls and singing songs and getting drinks for free. You get a shiver in the dark and wet It's been raining at the airport but meantime North of the river you stop and you hold everything Rataczak is flying 305 at double four time You feel all right when you hear that intercom ring You step outside but you don't see too many faces Going out in the rain to see Cooper come down Too much competition, too many other places But not too many jumpers can make that exit sound Way on down south, way on down south, Portland town You check out Himmelsbach he knows all the shit Mind he's strictly old school he doesn't make it cry or sing An old fork tail is all he can afford When he gets up to play his thing And Florence doesn't mind if she doesn't make the scene She's got a stewardess job she's doing alright She can play honky tonk just like anything Saving it up for Wednesday night With the hijackers of the thing And a crowd of young boys they're fooling around at the DZ Drunk and dressed in their best white baggies and their french boot soles They don't give a damn about any jet jumping band It ain't what they call rock and roll And the FBI played Creole And then the man he steps right up to the intercom And says at last just as the time bell rings 'Thank you, good night, now it's time to go home' and he makes it fast with one more thing 'Duane was Cooper'

georger said "How would one group of bills wind up in a ball (mechanicaly) while the rest remain as open broken fragments plus a small 3 bundle stacked-cemented wad? Whatever the process it miust account for all three conditions including 'frags at three feet' (Himmeslbach was not making that up!)." Yes good point. It's amazing to me, how this information (which we still don't have a complete view of, yet), changes everything about how people perceive the possibilities. I mean, on the one hand, the FBI acts like people are nuts with theories about "planting the money"...but all people heard are these "3 bundles, with rubber bands, tightly stacked together" stories...I mean it feeds that kind of thinking naturally. Note that some money had no rubber bands! I'm thinking that the fragments couldn't have been from the 3 bundles. We've discussed that. So I think the find is "3 bundles stuck together with aged rubber bands...plus other pieces not related to the 3 bundles, with no rubber bands, dispersed how far? fragments (of what range of sizes?) and maybe a balled up wad".

she's just a crazy lady. no big deal.

The article I posted that named Schreuder as the agent "in charge" of the beach search, and making the "3 feet down" comment, spelled his first name wrong. Using the sophisticated secret CSG databases, the correct spelling is Dorwin Schreuder. (all govt agents for all countries are in CSG databases, past and present) You can see a number of things he was involved in back then (80s) here http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=%22Dorwin+Schreuder%22+FBI Interestingly, he was one of the 3 agents who negotiated with the attempted hijacker Tripp (the guy who tried twice). They shot him the 2nd time. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=usQRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=o-4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7005,3067783&dq=dorwin-schreuder+fbi&hl=en Oddly, Tripp said he wanted to go to Afghanistan. Tripp was one of 17 children. In any case, Dorwin Schreuder appears to be alive. Maybe Bruce can interview him about the beach search? Dorwin L. Schreuder was originally from Montana. Looks like he's 67 years old. Looks like he's returned there, and there's a listed phone number for him. (Bozeman) BRUCE: This would be a most excellent interview...another FBI guy on the money search..but this guy seems more connected to the overall thing than the last guy! He was an FBI negotiator..so watch out!

We've seen pictures of the large screen they used. I think there was also a smaller screen. It would be interesting to know if any of the found fragments came as a result of the screening. The most intriguing description, I thought, was that FBI agent saying he found something like a balled up wad.