Sluggo_Monster

As far as I know... Yes! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Thanks for the responses on my “Help Me Sort This Out” question. 377, Neither one is more accurate than the other…. They are just two published (or soon to be published) expressions of what happened during the “Sled-Drop test.” georger, It’s just an attempt to make some sense of the way two people express what should be the same situation, differently. I thank you for your response, I respect your intellect, but… you can still “piss me off” better than just about anybody on this board. But, I'll not let that deter me from my mission. It wasn’t a trick question. Just an attempt to discuss some issues (actually) relating to NORJACK and not let myself get involved in the “Jerry Springer” aspect of this thread. All, I spent some time doing (nuclear) accident/incident investigations (a long time ago) and, I am relatively sensitive to listening not only to WHAT someone says when relating an incident, but to HOW they say it as well. In fact, HOW they say it carries more weight with me than WHAT they say. To me the 2nd case is a VERY weak correlation to the pressure bump being an incident that would have been noticed/recalled by the crew. Basically, I agree with georger's response. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

NOTE: This info may have already been posted. I have been doing some research for a couple on “media types” and I stumbled across some articles that indicate (to me) that the “smokejumper” hypothesis was pretty thoroughly investigated (and dismissed) by the FBI as soon as a few hours after the hijacking. Here’s the scoop: A passenger named “Michael Cooper” boarded Flight 305 at MSO (Missoula International Airport - Missoula, Montana). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from MSO to SEA. A passenger named “Dan Cooper” boarded at PDX (Portland International Airport - Portland, Oregon). He paid cash for a one-way tourist class ticket from PDX to SEA. Dan Cooper was not on the list of passengers that de-planed at SEA after the money/parachute exchange. This situation evidently was un-nerving or a curiosity to the investigators (FBI). The FBI contacted Leonard Kraut of the US Forest Service Smokejumper Training Center near Missoula, Montana and asked if a “Michael Cooper” had ever trained or jumped from there. This contact may have been made while the plane was enroute to Reno (my conjecture). Kraut stayed up all night searching the school’s records and reported the next morning that no one named Michael Cooper had ever trained or jumped from there. My conclusion from all of this is that the FBI was “all over” the smokejumper possibility beginning while the hijack was in progress (or within a few hours) and probably exhausted that avenue of investigation, before (or congruent with) moving to “sport parachuting” as a suspect pool. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

The drop test (Sled-Drop Test) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, Now, (assuming the most recent Jerry Springer episode is over), I would like some opinions. When looking at witness testimony, I found two similar statements that (to me) have entirely different meanings. Please read these two paraphrased witness statements about the same incident and comment on whether or not they convey two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT meanings: [Emphasis is mine to underscore the difference] Witness Statement #1 Witness Statement #2 Thanks, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Quade, I saw this article (or a similar one) a few days ago and had similar thoughts. I was wondering if we (the regular posters) have been grossly unfair to Jo. But, after thinking about it a while, I realized that Deborah Perez was offering “physical” evidence along with her incredible story. (The glasses that she claims came from a victim.) If Jo had presented some “physical” evidence (a Cooper-Bill, the bank bag, a boarding pass, etc.) with her incredible story, maybe LE and this forum, would have given her more consideration. Sluggo_Monster On another subject: It looks like after a few days of respite, this forum has returned to being an internet version of “The Jerry Springer Show”

All, From the time I spent with Jo and my own research, I find John C. Collins a.k.a. Duane Weber to be a fascinating person with a very interesting (maybe even charmed) history. I spend a lot of time wondering what would have happened if someone other than Jo had been pursuing Duane Weber/John C. Collins’ association with the NORJAK case. If it had been someone who would recognize objective evidence and its value to an investigation, as opposed to someone who only values subjective association by the observer. Her Claims Re: Objective Evidence: She held the ticket receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX). She held a parking receipt in her hand (no date, just PDX). She saw (up close) the bank bag (no date, no identified link to NORJAK). Duane/John confessed to being Cooper. Duane/John had some (possible) skydiving hardware that he treasured. Her Claims Re: Subjective Associating: Note: As I started listing these I realized the list is very long and everyone who posts here frequently knows what is on the list. So I won’t take time or space to list them here. Now, before I go further, I want to make a statement about “Subjective Association.”: Subjective association in and of itself is not necessarily bad, evil, or wrong-headed. Ckret has been pushing an investigative technique that is based entirely on “subjective association.” (i.e. This statement from the FBI Website: “You can help. We’re providing here, for the first time, a series of pictures and information on the case. Please look it all over carefully to see if it triggers a memory or if you can provide any useful information.”). Also, Ckret once posted that maybe by going public it might trigger a memory about that weird old uncle that disappeared in 1971 (paraphrased). The problem with Jo’s “Weber was Cooper” thesis is that she takes the thinnest of subjective associations and daisy-chains them into what appears to be a strong link (in her mind at least). As for me: I don’t know if Collins/Weber was Cooper. I don’t know if Gossett was Cooper. I don’t know if McCoy was Cooper (but I don’t think so). I don’t know if Christiansen was Cooper (but I don’t think so). I don’t know if Barb Dayton was Cooper (but I don’t think so). I don’t know if Teddy Mayfield was Cooper (but I don’t think so). I do know, however, that Jo Weber has so poorly presented her case for “Collins/Weber as Cooper” that she has prejudiced everyone, even the most open-minded (serious) investigator (including members of the FBI). The situation has now reached the point where everyone who truly wants to contribute to the solution of NORJAK, has taken a position of ignoring her incoherent ramblings or, in some cases become openly hostile toward her. I have repeatedly asked Jo to turn her research and “evidence” over to a trusted (trustworthy) third party and allow them to review the material and then present the case for “Weber/Collins was Cooper” and/or make a statement that there is no evidence in the “evidence”. She has repeatedly refused. So, now, I would like to make another proposal (publically) to Jo: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jo, Please turn your three or four suitcases of research and “evidence” over to a committee of serious NORJAK researchers to make a determination about John/Duane’s possible involvement in NORJAK. This action would restore some credibility while allowing you to be through with what you have described as a 13-year nightmare. In this era (2009), your documents could be scanned and sent electronically to the committee members without you actually relinquishing the physical documents. You could choose to withhold some documents (but, they would not be placed into consideration by the committee). My suggestions for members of the committee:Absolutely first SafecrackingPLF Second 377 And in no particular order:Orange1 georger quade (if he would agree) 1969912 Guru312 (if he has time) happythoughts TomKaye (I doubt he has the time, but he has an assistant who would do a good job) Absolutely excluded (for reasons that will remain unstated):Sluggo_Monster JerryThomas snowmman skyjack71 Respectfully, Sluggo_Monster ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You will notice my recommendations for inclusion on the committee aren’t exactly my “circle of friends,” but I think they would give it a serious effort and provide a good balance to guarantee a fair outcome. What do others think (especially if you were listed)? Jo, what do you think? Be careful, your answer will say a lot about your “true” intentions here on DZ dot com. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Advice: Never air your dirty laundry in public. Wayne?... Wayne?...WAYNE? Passive aggressive? ATTENTION! Tell your neighbors (GSW & GW) I said ; "Hello!" (That's super secret Double-Naught-Agent code) No conspiracy in here! So why not just say nothing and avoid embarrassment? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Is there some depth to Mr. PQ heretofore never exhibited?

The intelligence community has an old saying: “Those that are talking, don’t know… and those who know, aren’t talking.” Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377, 377 Said: IDENT... I am squawking 7500! I have been hijacked. Seriously, I have been doing some "in-depth" NORJAK research (leg-work) on some issues that have always puzzled me and and making "personal contact" with people that I have always wanted to talk to. I honestly believe as time goes on, the curtain is descending on the D. B. Cooper case (NORJAK). Eye-witnesses are getting old, senile and dying. The same is true for participants. Some of these people MUST BE located and their stories recorded, even though time has “muddied the water”. That is the only way the crime can be solved (by anyone, FBI or citizen). However, it DOES NOT ensure that a solution is obtainable. Locating people and getting statements (preferably oral) is what has been occupying my (now limited, since I’m on assignment) time. I’m not mad at anyone, or ignoring the thread, (I read it (almost) daily), it’s just that the current “style” of posts are not helpful (to me). Back around the time of the Amboy chute find, this thread was very valuable to me, but at this time, it isn’t. My hopes are that someday it will return to the way it was then. Anybody know of an old buried parachute in Clark County, Washington that we could dig up?

Georger, As a (proud) Deep-South Southerner. I found the attached photo in your last post offensive (and in VERY poor taste). I'm not one of the "PC Police types," but some symbols (even though iconic) are still offensive to many (or maybe most). Maybe Mid-Westerners have "differential sensibilities". Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, It may be lame, but the fact is, many people have left this thread because of you. That may be a good thing, that may be a bad thing, but it is a REAL thing. Take a look at the kind of post on this thread previous to April 1, 2008 (when you started posting) and today. Notice the nature of the discussions then and now. Also, let’s look at who posts on a single (100 post) page back then: Novalis nigel99 labrys SafecrackingPLF dumstuntzz NickDG Capnastropants ltdiver Ckret stratostar mark Albert18 TrophyHusband milehighpres low_pull1 SKYWHUFFO 1969912 skyjack71 ryoder Orange1 grimmie happythoughts Sluggo_Monster Now look at who posts on a single (100 post) page now: snowmman JerryThomas 377 georger skyjack71 quade Orange1 happythoughts Mr.Nuke 1969912 BruceSmith Sluggo_Monster Do you think you might be the cause of the shift? Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Re: SID_Close.jpg I don't know if I can see Portland, but the reflection on the screen is DEFINATELY Darth Vader. (Or is it Duane Weber?) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Emphasis mine That just didn’t sound right to me for an aircraft designed to be used as a trainer and “Proficiency Logger” for Command Staff. So I did some quick research on the various versions of the T-33. From a recent accident account in the AAIB Bulletin: 12/2007 ACCIDENT Aircraft Type and Registration: Lockheed T-33 Silver Star Mk 3, G-TBRD For the accident flight, when the weather was warmer and the TOW had increased to 14,161 lb, the TODR was calculated to be 1,326 m. At that weight, the stall speed, with takeoff flaps selected and the landing gear extended, was 101.5 kts. {116.8 mph} From http://www.ccminc.com/vintage/acinfo.html VINTAGE THUNDERBIRD Aircraft Information Lockheed T-33A "Thunderbird" Year Built: 1958 S/N: 58-665 Top Speed: 600 mph Pattern Speed: 300 mph Stall Speed: 115 mph [(Aprox. 100 kts) I assume this is “clean” based on the info above] Gross Wt.: 15,300 lb Fuel Flow (FL300): 200 gph Crew: 2 More at: http://www.ccminc.com/vintage/history.html This is the stuff that just drives me crazy! snowmman is quoting from a book which was sold as “non-fiction.” What reason would he (or anyone else) have for not believing that the account is accurate. My personal conversation with Himmelsbach indicates that he believes it to be “true” (accurate?). Yet, common sense dictates that the account, as stated, probably isn’t “true” (accurate). Any T-33/P-80 jockeys out there want to help us out here? Sluggo_Monster Late edit after reading interim posts: snowmman, get your head out of your ass. The T-33 asked permission to go above 305. I have no idea why ATC would reply the way they did, unless it was tacit permission. ATC was telling the T-33 that 305 could not exceed 10,000 MSL (which is the altitude dictated by the hijacker). I guarantee you if Cooper had told them to go to 12,000 they would have and ATC would not object based on previous information. If he had asked for 14,000 MSL, there might have been a problem because the were unpressurized and the mask would have deployed. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377, You took the words right outta my mouth! Da Slug Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, It does show up in the transcripts. You can find it on pages 189 and 190. ATC told them they could bust altitude by 4000 feet. 305 also requested not to be restricted by the noise abatement procedure and was granted permission to climb at any angle they needed to. They also were told “No restrictions at all, you fly any way you can do her”. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, You said: It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

dy8coke, Here are some illustrations and photos of Manual Cabin Pressure Control, cabin pressure Indicator, and the FE's panel: Cabin Alt.jpg is from the B-272 manual. Manual Pres Cabin Contr.jpg is from the B-272 manual. Detail of Instruments.jpg is a photo of the instruments you are looking for in the next photo. 727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg the Second Officer (or Flight Engineer) panel. 727-SO-Panel_RED.jpg is another photo showing the whole FE Panel Sluggo_Monster EDIT: When looking at the panel, look for the long, red, "Pressure Differential Limit" placard above the Cabin Presure control/indicator. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Georger said: Look at the 1971 SEA Sectional. The yellow areas are not civil boundaries, but light patterns. When a pilot is flying at night and can see the ground, he/she IDs cities by that pattern. Also remember there are no state boundaries on a sectional chart, so the fact that Vancouver is in WA doesn’t mean it isn’t a suburb of Portland, OR. Pilots tend to think in terms of airports, terminal areas, and NAVAIDS. When a pilot says we are 10 miles from Portland, I assume he means PDX. There is where the ATCs are, where the ILS is, and where the VOR is. (PDX also means the PORTLAND VOR/DME). The City of Portland is 4 miles SW of PDX (the airport and the VOR/DME). So, FWIW my money is on: Vancouver is the suburbs of Portland whether you are talking about the Airport or the city. Georger said: I would be surprised if Tina had EVER been on V-23, and I would bet Rataczak, Scott and Anderson had NEVER been also. They were stationed in MN and passenger carrying aircraft don’t (usually) fly low altitude, VFR airways. They would however, probably be very familiar with J-1, J-126, J-5, and J-65. Now, I want to say something and I don’t want to hear any shit about “secrecy”. Sometimes to get people to talk, you have to promise confidentiality. I have been carrying on a dialog with a journalist/film-maker. He made a comment to me (as a statement of fact) that really caused me to perk up my ears. I have asked him for proof (a source) of a statement he made that might change some of the thinking about the “pressure bump” issue. Here is my e-mail to his assistant who had asked if there was anything else she could do for me: I have been thinking about my British 727 friend Benson, and what he said about the older 727s (relative to today) with pneumatic cabin Pressure/Altitude control systems sometimes creating a spurious “pressure bump” (his words and he doesn’t follow the NORJAK case). I wonder how much “time-in-type” there was between Scott, Anderson, and Rataczak? Is it just me or does "triggered a recollection" mean something different than “we felt that before”? If they had truly felt a pressure bump and thought Cooper had jumped before the Columbia (or Willamette, see I pay attention) why didn’t they land at PDX or EUG (they were cleared for both)? Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, A small correction here: Loss of the Mode C transponder does not mean the “blip” was lost. It just means the blip has no ID associated with it and the controller isn’t sure of the aircraft’s altitude. (Based on experience from 1991 – 1998 [your mileage may vary]). Many times when on a flight plan (which I seldom do since I am VFR only) or entering a “Mode C Veil,” I have had a controlled ask that I; “Ident and say altitude,” meaning either I was in a group of other aircraft, (all squawking VFR) or if on a flight plan he just wanted to make sure he had me ID’ed and the Mode C Transponder was returning the correct altitude. This is not unusual. There are “on aircraft” issues that will cause the Mode C Xponder to report the wrong altitude (like a clogged reference port on the pitot-static system. Also, remember 305 was squawking 3100. In 1971 this was a suggestion from some “international agency” and was probably left up to the individual airline policy. The 7500 “Hijack” code was made part of the FARs sometime later. I looked it up and discussed it with 377 but I don’t remember when. Maybe 377 remembers. Squawking 3100 may have made the ATC a little on edge and wanting to make sure he was "on top of it." Sluggo_Monster [Very sleepy after driving through a blizzard, but now warm and comfy in a nice motel in Farmington, NM) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Let me try to add something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty. Some may call it anecdotal, if so, I’m not offended. I’m in the same boat with the rest of you, too many statements and not enough “facts”. In a phone conversation with Ralph Himmelsbach on March 6th, 2009. While sitting in my car outside the Conestoga Steak House in Dothan, AL. I asked Ralph, point blank; “Where did the data for the flight path, shown on the 1970s era Seattle sectional (do you know the one I mean?, Ralph says “yes”) come from?” “Do you know who produced (drew) the map itself?” Ralph replied (without hesitation); “I DON’T KNOW!” What I should have (additionally) asked was; “Were you aware of the map BEFORE your retirement?” I will be talking to him next week and I will ask that question then. Maybe we can figure out the origin of the document that we (I) have put so much faith in. Sluggo_Monster Exempt from the “something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty” statement above: Aditionally, there is an aviation professional that I am aware of but have not yet been able to contact (but I am trying) who was an eye-witness, and disputes Ralph’s claim about the deviation toward Troutdale (the town, not the airport). Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

So far, I do not know of anyone who has gotten a (confirmed) virus from the e-mail. Some recipient’s SPAM filters blocked it, others opened it and followed the link. I know of no one who downloaded the “Language Converter” which (in my opinion) probably contained a virus. Neither Norton Antivirus nor Super Anti-Spyware has located any Viruses, Mal-ware, Spyware, or Ad-ware on my home system. I have no idea where it came from, it may have been a web page, or an e-mail (I get dozens a day (from my adoring fans

Jo Said: AND Ahhhh! Now my work is done. Sluggo takes a "deep bow". See 377, that’s how you do it. snowmman, Thanks, you played you hand straight as an arrow, just as I hoped you would. See what we can accomplish when we work together. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Snowmman said: Yes, it was veeerrrrryyyy dramatic (how else can I say “very dramatic” dramatically)? Sluggo said: From your favorite source (Wikipedia): It was an analog, who said anything about specifics in Duane’s life and/or Jo’s participation. This story was about Sluggo Marrinelli and I.P. Freely. BTW Florida Law Sates: 790.23 Felons and delinquents; possession of firearms, ammunition, or electric weapons or devices unlawful.-- (1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any firearm, ammunition, or electric weapon or device, or to carry a concealed weapon, including a tear gas gun or chemical weapon or device, if that person has been: (a) Convicted of a felony in the courts of this state; (b) Found, in the courts of this state, to have committed a delinquent act that would be a felony if committed by an adult and such person is under 24 years of age; (c) Convicted of or found to have committed a crime against the United States which is designated as a felony; (d) Found to have committed a delinquent act in another state, territory, or country that would be a felony if committed by an adult and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year and such person is under 24 years of age; or (e) Found guilty of an offense that is a felony in another state, territory, or country and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year. (2) This section shall not apply to a person convicted of a felony whose civil rights and firearm authority have been restored. (3) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (4), any person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. (4) Notwithstanding the provisions of s. 874.04, if the offense described in subsection (1) has been committed by a person who has previously qualified or currently qualifies for the penalty enhancements provided for in s. 874.04, the offense is a felony of the first degree, punishable by a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. 775.082 Penalties; applicability of sentencing structures; mandatory minimum sentences for certain reoffenders previously released from prison.-- …… (c) For a felony of the second degree, by a term of imprisonment not exceeding 15 years. (d) For a felony of the third degree, by a term of imprisonment not exceeding 5 years. Sounds to me like a felon in possession of a handgun is taken pretty seriously in FL. Maybe if I ever get caught doing a second degree felony in FL, I’ll get my wife to tell them I’m sick. That should get me off. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum