Sluggo_Monster

This is an example of one of the things that irritates me about this forum: A says something… B misquotes it… C makes it part of the database. Example: Sluggo said: snowman, I did not say the Sci-Team did the analysis… YOU did (say it, not the analysis). And BTW: Jerry Thomas posted this: Post #10446 JerryThomas said: He got the chemical wrong, but it’s the same purpose. You must have been on sabbatical. Or, maybe you’ve run out of things to gripe about. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

First… Good Job Cousin Brucie! A site-visit always carries a lot of weight over “armchair” speculation. I hate to sound argumentative, but we all have to maintain “critical thinking” if we are ever going to build a useful database. I see something in Al Fazio’s story that years of accident investigation indicates Mr. Fazio’s memory MAY BE faulty. He said the shards and bits were discolored and black. All the photos (that I could find) of the bills the first few days after being found, show the (nearly whole) bills as somewhat faded but not discolored (to a high degree) and none are black. The currently accepted theory (borne out by chemical analysis) is that the black discoloration was caused by dusting (all) the bills with silver-nitrate AFTER they were in FBI custody. The more recent photos of the money definitely show a lot of discoloration, including blackening. So, is Al Fazio’s memory mixing recent images with the images of the day? Does this discount other aspects of his description? Did the parts of the bills that broke away from the main bodies, experience something that caused them to be discolored (including blackening)? Does any of this matter? I do not have any answers, but I will maintain “critical thinking” as I process Bruce’s report on Tena Bar. Respectfully submitted, Sluggo_Monster(Late for work... again!) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

The big, long-awaited life disrupting event has come and gone. The sun is setting on the tiny kingdom and the villagers return to their evening routines: Sluggo Pontificates – He continues to spew forth information that appears to have some authority behind it, but that authority always remains occult. Covert thoughts, secret symbols, and vague references populate his essays. And yet, occasionally buried deep inside that bland gruel of oatmeal-like mung there lies a raisin, a sparkling jewel of insight that provides light by which others can see. But, lo… it provides no heat. All the while he wonders if the villagers view him as a friendly soothsayer or an evil ogre. snowmman Babbles – He speaks in rambling, disjointed, dissertations, patched together by sometimes irrelevant works of others. He continues to shun all the other villagers, while all he really wants is their love and admiration. The villagers shake their collective heads in disbelief at the brashness of his actions and then stop dead still… frozen… in abulia-like paralysis when something he says actually makes sense. 377 Apologizes – He apologizes even when no apology is requested or required. He walks amid the villagers constantly. Hello Ms Weber, how are you today? Good-day Sluggo, did you sleep well last night? He jokes, he laughs, and then when he is alone… he cries. He can’t understand why his curiosity, his life-long partner, curiosity, is constantly being trampled by the stampede of the villagers as they make their pilgrimages to the Federal Building in Seattle. Skyjack Wanders Aimlessly - She walks from house to house, shouting; “Bring me your connection! I must find the connection! What would it cost you to give me the connection?” she screams. As she approaches each house, she hears the tell-tale sound of night-latches clicking shut, shutters closing, and children scrambling to find a hiding spot under their beds. georger Is Missing – He was last seen heading out to the lower forty to check on a calf… but he never returned. The villagers wait and wonder, but no one wants to be the first to pull out a $1-bill as say aloud; “Where’s georger!” Yes, all is well in the tiny kingdom. The sun has sunk below the horizon, all is peaceful, all is quiet. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377 said It seems like I start a lot of my post with; “I can’t speak for [fill in the blank] but, blah, blah, blah. So, some of you may be tired of hearing it, but that’s just the way it is. It seems to me the same people (posters) who are so logical when it comes to discussing the minutia and arcane details of NORJAK have their brains run down into their shoes when discussing “the NORJAK community" and its members. They hear, see, read something and then apply that information in a very broad way. Contrary to snowmman’s assertions, Ckret and I don’t hang out at the bar discussing NORJAK (we are a bit far apart for that). But, I do occasionally communicate with him. I’m usually begging for some scrap of information that I want (need) to enable me to solve the case before lunch. Likewise, I occasionally communicate with Tom Kaye. We don’t hang out in bars either. Usually I’m getting help from him in completing my Beaver Patrol Paleontology Merit Badge. To my knowledge Ckret and Tom almost never communicate. Not that they don’t like each other, they just each have their own commitments. My point? My point is your reference to an “FBI explanation” doesn’t compute. The up-river-transport-by-boat theory isn’t the FBI’s, it isn’t Ckret’s, and I may not even be Tom’s. My best guess is that Tom was asked to speculate about some kind of example of how the money could have been transported up-river and his response was edited to make it look like it was the predominate theory. Here’s an example: Reporter: Mr. Sluggo, could the radiation exposures to the residents of Pleasantville as a result of the melt-down of the Pleasant River Nuclear Station have caused them serious health problems? Sluggo: Some believe that a few hundred millirem will kill 50% of the population, but that just isn’t true. The exposures at Pleasantville weren’t enough to cause any biological effects. The final edit as broadcast: We asked noted health physicist Mr. Sluggo Marinelli what effects the radiation from the Pleasant River Nuclear Station might have had on the residents of Pleasantville, here is his response: [Mr. Sluggo’s Voice on a sound byte] A few hundred millirem will kill 50% of the population. Get the point. [Note:] This is based on a real incident in Sluggo’s life. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I’m late for work, so I have to be brief: I would like to remind everyone that Edge West and Phil Day were the producers and director of that film (anachronistic term). They were solely responsible for its content. Larry Carr, Tom Kaye, Geoff Grey, Himmelsbach, Cossey, Troy Hartman, and others shown in the film had no more “creative input” than Cousin Brucie did. As George Bush would say, in other words, just because it was in the film doesn’t mean it is a fact and we should be updating our database. It is apparent to me, in some cases, entertainment value won out over factual value. As I have hinted at before, the original storyboard was considerable different from the final product. Bruce is right, the film was significantly re-edited, but not because of the Barb Dayton info. I think the film was of higher quality than others I have seen. But… I was very disappointed with the fictionalization of the end product. Probably 10 times as much video (as was shown) ended up on the cutting room floor. Much of it “factual.” This whole experience has made me understand why I am not a film-maker, my nervous system could not take it. Blatently Off-Topic: I watched Sarah Pallen's "farwell speech" and was reminded of this: What is the difference between Sarah Pallen and the Panama Canal? The Panama Canal is a very busy ditch! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Technically Incorrect Disjointed Fictionalized Good Cinematography Much as I suspected, it will create interest in a new generation, but is a big dissapointment to regular posters here. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I am a "prisoner of war." I am a "human being." According to the Geneva Convention, you must treat me humanely. Ever see the TV series “Prisoner” from the 1960s? I am NOT number six! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman said: Good catch... you're "on to me!" Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

377 said: Oh… Dr. Graham of course, not that snowmman hasn’t been helpful, it’s just that I grew up (in North Georgia) a Southern Baptist. One of the basic tenets of the Southern Baptist religion is that Billy Graham is God and when you die, you go to Montreat, NC. I can remember listening to the radio at around age 4-years (1952) and hearing Dr. Graham’s standard: “You MUST put yo-ur hey-ands on the rad-e-yo and pray for God’s for-gev-ness.” This nightly statement (admonition) had several major impacts on my developing psyche. One: It scared the hell out of me. Two: It made me think all evangelist were “just a little freaky.” Three: It made me abandon my given first name (Billy) in favor of my middle name, because I figured if I stuck with Billy everyone would think I was a preacher (or country music singer). And finally: It made me think that God resided in the radio, which surely influenced my initial career choice and decision to major in Electronic Engineering because I knew I’d never get through school without God’s help. Yeah… I’m gonna go with the preacher over the troll-er.

Snowmman said: snowmman, Your advice (and Billy Graham’s sermons) have done me a world of good. "Diversity raises the intelligence of groups." Nancy Kline Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I don’t know exactly why/how snowmman draws his conclusions about the nature of the investigation in the “early years,” but I have a considerably different read on it. If you have read my blogs and other posts, you know that I think the investigation in general was botched, mainly because of biases of some of the lead investigators. However, being a “botched investigation” is not the same as “failure to investigate.” Whether the investigation was driven by “leads/tips” or by proactive efforts coming from some sort of “think-tank or steering committee” is irrelevant to me. This article indicates to me the FBI was investigating every possibility that they were aware of and which might have lead to a conclusion. Now, I have to tread carefully here… least I begin to sound like Jo. So, you read it just as I state it. I have reason to believe the FBI knew about the SF-SOG activities in Viet Nam by as early as 1972. I came by this information since the conversation I had with Ckret (and posted last night). I don’t want to hear a lot of shit about my standards for proof being low… the fact is, I have no proof. But, I trust the person who told me. All information EVER gained from this person has checked out. I too, wonder if Waugh and others were actually interviewed. I hope snowmman, Orange1, and georger, in their searches about the Viet Nam era will uncover more evidence that SF-SOG personnel were given careful, thorough, and serious scrutiny. I don’t have much faith in composite sketches. I think a composite sketch (i.e. a sketch produced from multiple witness descriptions) of a suspect is like a horse built by a committee… it looks an awful lot like a camel! However, the sketches have to be dealt with. Right now, my focus is on the so-called “Initial Sketch” from the Las Vegas office. I want better images and a description of it’s origin. I keep thinking about the old adage; “The first impression is usually the most correct.” Maybe this applies to sketches as well. And… just for the record… I don’t think Ckret is (or was) “Full of Shit.” From my point of view he was the person who provided the public with the most information about NORJAK in 36 years. He did this while swimming up-stream against a bureaucracy that only a “Guv’ment Worker” would understand. In my opinion, the only mistake Ckret made (on DZ.com) was ID-ing himself as an FBI Agent. He should have said he had a contact in the FBI, and was getting his materials from him. THEN, maybe the posters here would not have held him to a different standard, than they held themselves. And, if that sounds like “ass-kissing,” so be it. I’d rather kiss the ass of someone I respect, than have my ass kissed by someone I don’t. Maybe I really don’t have the “evil” gene. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snownnam said: Sir, I demand proof... Show me (us) your evidence. Sluggo Marrinelli Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Here's the sketch that I find interesting. Compare the "age progressed" sketch to the LV "Initial Sketch" (previously posted). See the wide flat mouth? All the other later sketches (including the sinister ones) have a narrow mouth with pursed lips. Hmmm? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I have posed questions to Ckret (in personal communications, NOT professional communications) something like this: If the early investigators had known about the covert 727 (and C-130) insertions into Laos and Cambodia, would they have had a different attitude about what was reasonable and/or unreasonable decisions on Cooper's part? His response has been (consistently): "No! It would not change MY mind, I don't know about the original investigators." He sometimes presents a well-thought-out argument with real-world examples that, on one level, make a lot of sense. But, he still displays what I call "his blind spot" with regard to Cooper's actions, based ONLY on what we know. He usually says something like: He thinks there are "go" and "no go" conditions, in his opinion Cooper went on a "no go". One time he used MY OWN TRAINING as an example, saying, if I decided to "go dark" and use my skills for evil deeds, I wouldn't abandon the rules I had used to be sucessful. He says that he doesn't believe I would "half-ass" it and throw away the core rules that I had been trained to. He doesn't think I would, he thinks I would use my training to my advantage, not disadvantage. He sees Cooper as someone who did things halfass, he says I should compare Cooper to McCoy. He feels, it did not take a skilled person to get as far as Cooper did in his crime. He believes that back then if you made a demand it was complied with and that was common knowledge. It took limited knowledge to jump, die and disappear. It took considerable knowledge to jump, live and disappear. It is my intention to argue with him until I wear him down OR he files charges against me for harassing a Federal Agent.

Yes, I posted them. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I just received a PM from someone I met on the I-Net who has a “contract” with the FBI. He says (in response to my musings); “Cooper was never on the list because the FBI never identified who he was.” I assume he is saying they never placed ANYONE on the list unless they had a positive I.D. I have never seen a John Doe on the list, but I can’t see why not. Do I care if a fugitive has a name or not? If they called James Earl Ray (not James Earl Jones) Jim Bob Smith, would that change his physical description, make him less recognizable, etc.? I remember seeing Cooper on “wanted posters” in the Post Office. Also, it hit me after my last post that the FBI was in a major restructuring in 1972 – 1978. They lost J. Edgar Hoover in May of 1972. He was followed by two “Acting Directors.” L. Patrick Gray (May 3, 1972 – April 27, 1973) and William Ruckelshaus (April 30, 1973 – July 9, 1973). Then in 1973, Clarence M. Kelley was made Director and served July 9, 1973 – February 15, 1978. By the time the money was found on Tena Bar, William H. Webster was the Director (February 23, 1978 – May 25, 1987). So, from the hijacking to the Tena Bar find the FBI had 5 Directors/Acting Directors (6 if you count Ruckelshaus’ AD period). Could this have affected the NORJAK investigation? I honestly don’t know, but in my business that kind of discontinuity of leadership has an affect down to the bottom levels. I wonder what Ckret’s take would be on this? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Good post georger. I like that... I'm gonna steal it. Hey, at least I TOLD you I'm stealing it! That's altruistic... isn't it? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, It has been my experience that between 1980 and about 1996 you could walk up to 10 people on the street and ask who “D. B. Cooper” was and 8 of them knew who he was and what he did. Mostly gained from myths, but at least recognized the name. You would get a similar response if you ask the same question about Angela Davis. Most people (about 8 out of 10) knew who she was and the nature of what she did. If you asked about James Earl Ray (AND they didn’t confuse him with James Earl Jones), you would get at least 9 out of 10 who had some knowledge of who he was and what he did. The interesting thing (to me at least) is Davis and Ray were on the FBI Most Wanted list. Cooper was not. (Ray was on it twice, after the King assassination and again after he escaped.) My point is: The public holds Cooper and his crime(s) at or near the same level as James Earl Ray and Angela Davis, but the FBI doesn’t (didn’t). So maybe the FBI didn’t put as much manpower and effort into solving NORJAK as we (at least I) have come to believe. Maybe initially it was just another major case, which lay fallow while the FBI spent their time and energy chasing cop killers, domestic terrorist and assassins. Maybe it got a boost when the money was found on Tena Bar, and then sank back into the background. Then after 15 or 20 years it became “that unsolved hijacking.” Maybe then it took on more importance, but (unfortunately) after the evidence trail was very, very cold. So, in the long run, the mythology of D.B. has made people (or at least me) give the case more importance than it has (or ever had) in the eyes of the FBI. So, I guess it boils down to you guys, Himmelsbach, Jerry Thomas, and me. We may be the only ones who “give a shit” about Dan (D.B.) Cooper. There sure were a lot of “maybes” in this post weren’t there? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Thanks 377 I needed something to smile about this morning.

I don’t have much time, I’m in Centennial, CO (South of Ft. Carson, and haven’t been shot at even once). I’m on my way to the badlands for some R&R. But I just had to see what was going on in the “Zoo.” Snowmman said: I called you trollmman (with 2 Ms) because that is my perception. It had nothing to do with my argument, but rather my musing that you responded in the manner I expected. It didn’t mater what I posted; your response would have been similar. That’s as much a part of your personality as my “Died-in-the-wool Southerner act" is part of mine. I think you are smart. I like people who truly “get it” in regard to the bond between humans and canines. I think you must be a brave person (after seeing the ice-climbing pics). You sure know your stuff when it comes to contesting (Ham Radio). I also think you are a troll. Live with it… Embrace it… Perfect it… BUT DON’T, FOR ONE MINUTE, THINK IT WILL WIN AN ARGUMENT OR CHANGE AN OPINION! The best you can hope for is some redneck will call you trollmman (with 2 Ms).

trollmman, It won't be a daylight jump. It will correspond with the witness testimony. I will like it better than the others I've seen. Did you not see the word "OPINIONS" in my disclaimer? Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I want to make STRONG statement here. 1st the obligatory disclaimer: The following post does not represent the interest of Dropzone.com, Edge West Productions, Tom Kaye (and his associates), or the Federal Bureau of Investigation (AKA the FBI). Statements contained herein are the OPINIONS of Sluggo_Monster (Sluggo) and N467US.com, who are solely responsible for their content. Jo said: There may be a lot of confusion here and maybe I can help clarify the issue(s). The “Dream Team” (a term that they resent, by the way) is not releasing any information in conjunction with the National Geographic documentary. The research they are conducting will be release through some (hopefully refereed) scientific publication. They will release information (publish) when and only when they have proven any and all hypotheses that they have investigated. THERE IS NO TIME SCHEDULE related to subsequent publication. A path (hypotheses) taken early-on in the investigation was not supported by the data. The Edge West crew decided to feature them based on what THEY expected the outcome to be, but the science didn’t support their expectations. I think the average “DB Cooper Case (NORJAK) follower” will be disappointed with any publication of the team. It will be a very intense examination of some really minute aspects. There research may, indeed, contribute to the solution of NORJAK, but they will not “solve” the case. It will be up to the FBI to use their findings to help with a solution. It has been said that Tom, the team, and Agent Carr have “gone dark.” That is a perception that the folks saying that have. Agent Carr and the Sci-Team are behaving as professionals, no more, no less. Edge West Productions, has produced many TV documentaries, some very serious and some that are “fringe/tinfoil-hat” in nature. The creative effort was sincere, but alias, (as you have heard me say before) they too, have bosses (the bean counters). My fear is that the final product will be so “dumbed-down” as to be very disappointing to the regular posters on this forum. The upside is; it will introduce the case to many thousands of young people who have never heard of NORJAK. If you are looking forward to the Nat-Geo program because you think there is going to be some “GREAT REVELATION” presented there, get over it! It ain’t gonna happen! I was consulted by the director on several occasions, but the discussions centered on the “DB Cooper CULTURE” not the NORJAK case (they had Agent Carr for that. The FBI (in Seattle) has a Public Information (read Relations) Officer, to my knowledge that person is currently Robbie Burroughs. If any confidential information was being released in would have to have been approved by her (and others). I don’t think that has happened. If any group or individual wants access to the files (of the nature granted the Sci-Team), I would suggest you start with Agent Burroughs. (Lot’s of luck

georger, Wouldn't you be surprised if ol' Safe worked on the data used in the Palmer Report (as a student)? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Ditto from Sluggo_Monster. Thanx quade! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Oh 377! Orange1 IS NOT boring! And, you are...n....t... either...... snore....snore... sno UH! What was I saying? Oh yeah... You're n...o...t... b...o.... snore... snore....snooooorrrrree. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum