Sluggo_Monster

377 said: You probably already know my response. Regardless of my relationship with Jo right now, the information (records) I have was given to me in confidence and I made a verbal non-disclosure agreement with Jo. As is typical of Deep South Southerners (yes the upper-case letters belong there), my honor is my most valued possession. I will keep my word, until such time I am released from the agreement. If you want to know about John/Duane (and yes, the emphasis is on John, not Duane, get Jo to SHOW you her records (not tell you about them). Jo’s quest to prove “Duane was Cooper” keeps her from seeing the interesting aspects of John Collins. I am of the belief that Jo married knew and loved Duane Weber, but finds John Collins a total stranger, and of little importance to her. The character that interests me the most is John C. Collins. I didn’t start out that way, I started out to find out if Duane could have been Cooper. But, as I learned more, and grew more and more weary with Jo’s non-productive behavior, I dug out more and more about Collins. Since I can’t/won’t divulge specific information from the documents entrusted to me by Jo, let me use an analogy: Suppose there was a guy named Sluggo Marrinelli. You never met Sluggo, but you were given records that indicate 30 years ago, Sluggo got a job working for a DOE/DoD/NNSA contractor at a weapons lab. Sluggo was also a guardian ad litum (GAL) for the Pleasant County Family Courts a position that requires a background screening. The records you were given also indicate that previous to Sluggo’s job at the weapons lab and the GAL service, Sluggo had been to prison on, not one, but many felony charges. The records show Sluggo was dishonorably discharged from the Marine Corp, then, successfully joined the Navy, then, was dishonorably discharged from the Navy. He then spent years in and out of prison, sometimes using the name of I.P. Freely. But he still got the weapons lab job an served as a GAL. Finally, after changing his ways, Sluggo settled down and lived a quiet life as a small business owner. Then one day, Sluggo went to the Pleasant County Courthouse (where the DMV was located) and attempted to obtain a driver’s license under the name of I. P. Freely. He couldn’t prove he was I.P. Freely, so he couldn’t get the license. He left. The clerk got suspicious and called the Pleasant County Sheriff’s Office and reported the incident. Sluggo then drove over to Small County and the DMV there issued him a DL in the name of I.P. Freely. On his way home the Pleasant County Sheriff’s Deputies see him and stop him. He is found to be carrying a concealed weapon and a the new DL in the name of I.P. Freely. He’s taken to the County Complex, questioned, and released the same day. No charges are made, no indictment follows, the weapon isn’t taken, nothing happens. Now, that is an interesting story, don’t you think so? Now remember 377: - Never play cards with a man called Doc. - Never eat at a place called Mom's. - Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own. - Everyone who shits on you is not your enemy and everyone who pulls you out of shit is not your friend. - Never eat yellow snow. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Jo said: Don’t go asking for my help now. You have used up all your karma with me. As far back as January of 2008, I begged you to stop posting on this forum (or any forum). I tried to tell you tactfully that you were “pissing in the punchbowl” and ruining any hope you might have to get someone (anyone) to take your story seriously and to enlist the help of others knowledgeable in technology, law, law enforcement, or social sciences. I asked you, Ralph H suggested to you, and X (the guy you said: “He’s not a hydrologist, but he’s pretty close to one”) almost begged you to STOP POSTING! But you have continued to post. I offered to manage the information flow for you, X offered to manage the information flow for you, we both agreed to share those duties, not because we agreed with each other, but because we disagreed with each other (that’s intellectual honesty). But you wouldn’t have it, and now you are just a circus bear, peddling your unicycle, juggling your balls, dancing for a soda-pop, and having no idea where you are going, nor why. What’s really sad, is that you have a very interesting story, most of the posters here don’t know the story of Duane Weber. They only know the story of Duane Weber as told by an ex-wife who selectively accepts or rejects data in order to make it fit the story outcome as she sees it. That outcome being that Duane was the DB Cooper who was on the plane that night. An analogy would be: You want to prove that Duane was the quarterback on the Pleasantville College State Championship Football team in 1956. When people of whom you have requested help, say “Well, it appears he was on the 1956 Pleasantville team, and they DID win the 1956 State Championship, but Duane was a running-back NOT a quarterback” you reject all that info because it doesn’t fit the outcome you wanted. You then go on to blame the people who are trying to help you. You even say, the Line-judge, and the Referee were incompetent, just because the facts don’t support your desired outcome. So, the boat sank. Who caused the boat to sink? YOU did! 377 is right… using mystical, far-fetched, supernatural, way-out, conspiratorial, and fanciful explanations to explain a puzzle are almost always wrong. The explanations are usually based on natural principles (and sometimes natural phenomena) and real-world facts. You remember when I told you that you needed to understand that everyone who shits on you is not your enemy, and everyone who pulls you out of shit is not your friend? It is obvious that you have never learned that lesson. Just in case anyone cares (which I doubt), here’s my read on Duane Loren Weber (AKA John C. Collins): He was not a petty criminal as some have said. He was a master criminal (not necessarily more evil), who, like any good gambler, knew when to quit. In his final years, his only crimes were centered on covering his past and protecting his legitimate (lawful) life. He MAY have been involved in some covert operations at some time (probably in the sixties and probably in Florida). His association with the NORJAK hijacking was tangential at most, most likely he was involved in the post hijacking search, or possibly was just intrigued by Cooper’s actions, and as a result admired him. He may have even conducted his own investigation, and desired to contact him (out of admiration). But, in that sense, he WAS involved. I think if Jo would open-up the (considerable) records she has amassed (to others here), some of the “deeper thinkers” like snowmman, georger, 377, Orange1 who post here regularly, could put together Duane’s story. And, I think all would find it interesting. So Jo, are you going to continue the make the same statements, over and over (ad nauseam), shout louder and louder, become more and more indignant, make personal attacks on those who try to help you understand, write more unsolicited PMs, display and increasing degree of emotional intensity, deny and reject the facts that don’t fit your story, embrace the fictions that support your desired outcome, and invoke protection and pity because of your health? Or, or you going to open your hand and show everyone the cards you are holding, and let them do some legwork (those you haven’t totally alienated), and maybe see where Duane REALLY fits in the NORJAK puzzle? Just remember the hard-learned lesson that a wise old man once told you: “Everyone who shits on you is not your enemy, and everyone who pulls you out of shit is not your friend.” Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, "Some guy" is a Disabled American Veteran, an aeronautical engineer, has jumped, and has 1750 flight hours. You replied: "Weather varies. Depends on where you're looking. You should talk to the FBI. They would know." Do you work for MicroSoft or something? (Answers to questions are 100% accurate and totally useless.) I'm glad to know you are serving this community by helping talented people who want to discover for themselves what might have happened on 11/24/2009. They are the kind of folks who don't just take the FBI's word for everything. I know you appreciate that. Good job! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Snowmman, When this crossed my desk this morning, I thought of you. (I thought of you too, georger, but mostly the snowmman.) Los Alamos Researchers Create "Map of Science" This "Map of Science" illustrates the online behavior of Scientists accessing different scientific journals, publications, aggregators, etc. Colors represent the scientific discipline of each journal, based on disciplines classified by the Getty Research Institute's Art and Architecture Thesaurus, while lines reflect the navigation of users from one journal to another when interacting with scholarly web portals. I don’t know why I bother to share it with you… you being so repellant (or is it repugnant) and all. And, you’re a Damn Yankee to boot. Maybe it was your statements about "online scientific journals" a few days ago. I was really sad to see subterraneanus leave. I’m going to miss him. He made some great contributions to this forum (thread). I don’t know if we will survive without his insightful commentary. It’s all your fault snowmman. Ah shit, let him go, I didn’t like his tone when he’d get on a rant against snowmman. As we say in the ‘Deep South”; “Lurkers are like a box of chocolates, once they’re gone you can’t even remember when they were there.”

All, I think I can explain the holes in the money. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Opening DB is walking out of the woods. He encounters two locals. First Local says: “Boy, what you doing up here on this river?” Banjo Music in the background. Second local says; “Boy, whatcha got in that lil’ ol purse you carrin’ on yor waist?” DB says; “Nothing sir, I’m just going down river to Aintry.” First local says: “Aintry… Aintry… This here riv’r don’ go to Aintry. You done made a wrong turn.” Banjo music gets louder. Second local raises his shotgun, and fires point blank at DB. DB falls over and is dead. First local says; “Now, whad ya do thet fur, I was horny and he sur wus purdy, lookit that purdy mouth. Lookit that olive skin.” Second local says: I want to see what he got in that ther bag. The locals discover the money in the reserve chute container. The second local says; “Looky here, these three bundles done got holes in um frum my shotgun!” The banjo music is even louder and faster. First local says; "We’ll dig a hole and hide those afore we git bac to tha car." Fade to black. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The short conversation I had with Himmelsbach, left a lot of questions in my mind as well. Some I would not ever ask, just because I think it would be impolite, others I will try to ask in future conversations. But there is something that should be noted, based on information obtained at a “Secret DBC Club” meeting.

All, I just got off the phone with Ralph Himmelsbach. I told him I would keep it short and had only one or two questions for him. He was very cordial and gave me as much time and attention as he had to spare. I got in a little more than two questions. [NOTE: Before I go on, I want everyone to understand that I am just acting as a recorder here. I asked the questions that I thought were the ones that most of the group (not the secret DBC Club, but the posters on this forum) would want to know about considering the discussions going on today. I haven’t even taken the time to reflect fully on what he said and how it changes my beliefs about NORJAK. But I will have to change some beliefs. Items in green are my comments and/or notes.] I asked about whether Tom Bohan was a real person or fictionalization for/from his publishers. Ralph said that he was indeed real (now deceased) and he was flying a Continental Airlines 727-xxx about 4 min behind and 4,000 feet above (14,000 ft. MSL). [Sluggo Note: If Bohan was on approach to PDX he was most likely less than 240 kts, so 4 min. would be about 13-15 nm.] Ralph had breakfast with Bohan some ??? years after the hijacking. Bohan reported that the weather was terrible and he had an 80 kt. headwind while flying south. Bohan specific stated it was some of the worse weather he had ever flown in. Bohan told Ralph that when he landed at PDX ??? runway to the East, he was right at the “maximum demonstrated crosswind component” for the aircraft at that weight. I asked Ralph how the weather could have been so severe at 14,000 ft. and not so bad at 10,000 ft. He said it WAS bad at 10,000 ft, it was bad at 2,500 ft. where he was in an Army (possibly National Guard) helicopter. He said a cold front was coming in and there was turbulence and sustained winds throughout. I described the “Flight-path” on the SEA Sectional that was released by the FBI in November of 2007 and made sure he knew which one I was talking about. (There could be others that he would know about, but have not yet been released.) I then asked him how that chart was produced and who produced it. He replied (somewhat bluntly) I just don’t know. He speculated that it was the product of some ARTC engineers and some Northwest Airlines engineers, using radar and flight recorder information. [I got the sense that he had no faith in that document at all.]. I ask how far off of V-23 the plane might have been after they got down around Battle Ground or Orchards. He told me that “the pilots” were not under very much restriction at all and were “hand-flying” the plane because large jets aren’t happy on autopilot at low speeds and low altitude. We had a short discussion about the clearance language and how they were told they could bust altitude by as much as 4,000 feet without notice from ARTC. Neither of us knew what they would have needed to have done as far a horizontal deviation from V-23. He said (without commenting on how he knew this) that as they approached PDX they could have been as much as 20 miles East of V-23. I asked for clarification, was he saying statute miles or nautical miles. His response was “statute miles.” I commented about, in light of that statement, Jerry Thomas’s search in and NE of Dugan Falls would not be so far-fetched. He said Jerry was definitely on target. He went into a long monologue about Jerry and how much he respects Jerry’s efforts. I won’t write much about it here (I don’t want Jerry to get a swelled head

If he has to look like me, you'll need the actor, I don't know his name, but he played "Jabba the Hut" in the first episode of Star Wars.

You left out: Hand-held laser near airport, magnetic rail-gun, Xe-131, brylcream and swimming pool, xerox machine, face transplant, stolen stinger missle (LAWS), Paris Hilton, and Code name "Azul". SLuggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, I resent that and hereby demand that you make changes to your post! Change it to read: Here you'll hear the opinions of a bunch of fat, insomniac, old men, regurgitating the same old tripe that's been regurgitated for 30 years…. Do it now… or I’ll send to cops to your house! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

BruceSmith, First, let me apologize for not (yet) responding to your e-mail. I am home (in Alabama) for the first time in nine weeks and your e-mail came while I was preparing to travel (extra-long work days, packing, etc.). Second, welcome to this forum (thread). This is the best forum on NORJAK going today. It is full of weird-Os, creeps, serious philosophers, scientist, journalist, and nut-cases. It is hosted by a bunch of skydivers who would really prefer that we go somewhere else and moderated by the “world’s most boring skydiver” who doesn’t see why it is all such a big deal. Third, I have read Ron and Pat’s book and while I found it intriguing, I also found it very slim on facts (as I know them or believe I know them). My first challenge to you (in your role as a journalist) would be to prove that Captain Bohan and his Continental Airways Flight actually existed. Not one respected journalist, researcher, nor FBI spokesperson (Robbie, notice I used a gender non-specific term), has shown any indication that the flight ever existed. Also, when thinking about this testimony (the Bohan thing), ask yourself why a (FAA part 135, passenger carrying) pilot would be flying on a VFR, Low-altitude Airway (V-23), at 14,000 MSL, while on approach to PDX and not the ILS (Instrument Landing System) inbound from the west (landing to the East). Get these issues resolved (to snowmman’s and georger’s satisfaction) and then you can call it “the truth” (the term you used and one I am not allowed to use). If you can prove that the Bohan/Continental story has legs, then you will have made a major contribution to the body of knowledge about NORJAK. As an aside… I recently tried to determine how the publishing industry makes the determination as to whether a book is fiction or documentary. I thought the ISBN application would have to indicate which is was and the ISBN # would reflect that indication. Not so! My local library (at the time) told me they place the books on their shelves (fiction vs. non-fiction) by looking the book up at Amazon and following their determination (when listed). I was shocked. So a novel is a novel, when the author/publisher says so, (Like; “The life of Sluggo – A novel about the struggles of a Redneck, by Boeing-377”). Otherwise, it’s non-fiction (or documentary). In the case of non-fiction/documentaries there is no presumption of “journalistic purity” (i.e. literary license may be used). I guess the moral of this story is; “don’t believe all you read.” Again, welcome, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

georger, It’s just a photo of a friend acquaintance that I used to enjoy talking with. He is was a real smart guy and I enjoy enjoyed having friendly arguments and discussions. Then one day, something went wrong in his life and he turned abrasive, cynical, and sometimes cruel. I really don’t know what it was. Whatever it was, I wish it hadn’t happened. Now, I just feel sorry for him. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree with georger. “Who are you and what have you done with the real snowmman?" The communication between you and me is very poor. For instance; I don’t know if it’s a language barrier i.e. my redneck; “Let’s poke it with a stick!” vs. your Northern California declarative interrogatives; “We’re going to Tena Bar?” But, I just don’t understand what you are talking about half of the time. And, when you go off on one of your fantasy tangents, you lose me altogether. Come on… show us the old snowmman. I’ll let you in my secret DBC Club. {You’ll still have to learn the secret knock and secret handshake though.} Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, KING-5 did a short piece on Tom’s fishing expedition and today’s visit to the Seattle FBI office. You can find it here: The Tie, the money, and Tom Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I have safecrackingPLF's results (or at least the photos), but I'll need his permission to post them. How about it Safe...PLF? Can I show those photos of your big feet?

All, Two videos of Tom Kaye and his fishing expedition in Vancouver, WA. Recognize anyone else in the video? Go here: Tom Kaye goes fishing at Frenchman’s Bar Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

SKYWHUFFO, I spent a period of time thinking along similar lines. I just never come up with a scenario that made sense taking into consideration what I know about the case (or THINK I know). The one issue that is haunting me right now is: In later years (as recently as 2001) Rataczak was making statements (publically and supposedly to the FBI) that he was certain the oscillations followed by the “pressure bump” marked Cooper’s jump. He even said; “I think our passenger has taken leave of us.” If that is true, why was Scott afraid to enter the cabin to check on Cooper (even after getting no response on the interphone)? Why did they continue all the way to Reno with the gear down and aft stairs extended? Why did they risk landing at Reno with the aft stairs extended? I’m sure if they didn’t know you could fly with the stairs down, they could not have been sure that they could land (safely) with them down. Does it sound (to you) that Rataczak (and/or Scott) were CERTAIN the “pressure bump” delineated where he jumped? And, don’t forget the strange characteristic of the pneumatic “cabin pressure-altitude” system on the 727-100 to exhibit spurious “pressure bumps.” These questions leave me with the feeling that there is a BIG piece of the puzzle missing. I don’t mean a conspiracy… just something (important) that we have not been told. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Seriously though, Groundspeak Forums has threads on strangest things found in a cache, near a cache, or when encountering other geocachers. I know there is at least one dude who “geocaches in the nude.” Geocaching is a relatively conservative and family-oriented activity, but needless to say, sometimes the adventure goes beyond the trek to the cache. Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Silly boy! Women do almost everything in their undergarments. And so do men (trying not to be sexist, Orange1). However, they usually have their outer-garments on also. Now... back in the late sixties... when I was at Stanford... I knew this girl from Berkley… she didn’t shave her underarms or wear panties…. She would do this thing with her… oh!.... uh!......... NEVERMIND! Sluggo The Devil made me do it! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

SKYWUFFO, From My Web-site: According to FBI records: When the passengers were taken off of the plane they were escorted to a VIP lounge. Only five of the 35 passengers indicated that they took notice of Cooper or that there were aware that there may have been a problem, other than what was announced by the crew (mechanical difficulty). They are as follows: Mr. Gregory Mr. Labissoniere Mr. Spreckel Mr. Mitchell (the stuborn student) Mrs. House The remaining 30 passengers, including Richard and Barbra Simons, stated they knew of nothing other than what the flight crew had advised them, nor did they notice Cooper. As stated previously, there was the Ticket Agent , Flo, Alice, and Tina. None of the cockpit crew ever saw Cooper (at least not after roll-back). They might have seen him during boarding activities, but took no notice. I have different names (two, I believe) for the ticket agent, I don't know which is correct. I can look it up if it is needed. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Jerry (T), In 1993 -1996 I used to fly a C-172 from RCH to KLS (Richland to Kelso-Longview). I would leave RCH and fly near S20 (Goldendale) then directly to KLS (passing just south of Mt. St. Helens). I did this (dog-leg) to limit my time in the air over the mountainous deep-woods. Now, I had driven all through the Pinchot National Forest and I had an idea of how desolate it was. I didn’t have any fear that if I “went-in” I wouldn’t be able to survive, I just didn’t want to damage a rental aircraft by landing in the tree-tops.

snowmman, I don’t have any of my books here (in NM), but if you don’t get an answer by next week, I’ll look while I’m at home. Here’s what I recall (from all the books I’ve read, I’m not sure which one or ones): He handed to note to Flo. She put it in her pocket. He told her to look at it because he had a bomb. She looked, went into the galley and showed it to Tina and Alice. Flo took the note back to Cooper (he had asked for it back (at sometime in all this). Tina informed the cockpit (without the note). The description of the note by all who saw it was: neatly hand-written in a uniform block style. When I saw this description of the note, I thought of my drafting classes in the sixties, and wondered if Cooper was a draftsman or engineer. I would love to show the witnesses some draftsman’s text (from the sixties) and see if that’s what they saw. Sluggo_Monster (late for work) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, Just some amplification: Reel #5 Pages 7, 8, and 9 (18:59 – 19:41) indicate that after a brief discussion of using J-5 the first clearance was given as Victor 23 to Portland. They advised the company that V-23 was “the best approach to go.” (page 7) The next clearance was to Sacramento. “that’ll be Victor 23 all the way to Sacramento.” (page 7) Then takeoff occurred (according to the time marks on the transcript) some time around 0341Z. SEA ARTCC (which has electronically controlled time stamps) says they were already airborne and at aprox. 6,000 feet at 03:37:17Z. Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff. Also, remember that all points in Mexico (even the western-most point) are EAST of SEA. Any flight that went west would just be wasting fuel. That leaves out SFO even though Rataczak thought is was just a small dogleg, but remember he hadn’t look at the Sectional at that time. He (and Scott) didn’t even know they had sectionals in the cockpit. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Yes, that's what I meant. Jerry thinks there is no way Cooper survived. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, Even though I talked to Jerry for about an hour and a half, there were a lot of things I didn’t get to discuss. We did talk about where he thought Cooper “went in.” If I understood him, he believes it was somewhere Northeast of "Dougan Falls” along Stebbins Creek. Dougan Falls is at: Waypoint Name Dougan Falls Lat, Lon (wgs84) 45.67260, -122.15310 N 45°40'21" W 122°9'11" Lat, Lon (nad27) 45.6728, -122.1519 N 45°40'22" W 122°9'7" UTM (wgs84) 10 565963E 5058021N Elevation 640ft / 195m Feature Type falls State Washington County Skamania USGS Map Title Bobs Mountain If I have the wrong place, I’m sure he or Shelly will correct me (now that Shelly is posting here). Due to the file-size limits the attached map may or may not be helpful. This location is considerable east of the “accepted” flight path. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum