Sluggo_Monster

POSTED BEFORE PREVIOUS POST WAS EDITED snowmman, How right you are! I said: The BAC-111, MD-80 series (see below) and Boeing 727 all fit the category of: The purpose of that paragraph was to determine if your question was about the configuration of the A/C or about Cooper’s understanding of which aircraft would give him that configuration. So are you trying to say (in the form of a question): Would Cooper have attempted an exit if the A/C had NOT been a 727? I guess you and I just think differently (correction: I know you and I think differently). You use the term “myth that a Boeing-727 was the only one”. I don’t see the relationship. If I buy into (your term) “the myth…..” Then, Cooper jumped from a 727. If I don’t buy into “ the myth….” Then Cooper jumped from a 727. So what does the myth (or lack thereof) have to do with whether or not he knew he could jump? I’m not arguing, or being hard-headed, I really just don’t understand what you are saying (or asking). I’ve watched you develop some really well thought out scenarios over the last few months, so I pay attention to what you say. It’s just, this time, I’m not “getting it.” Sluggo_Monster The DC-9 Family: The DC-9 was followed in subsequent modified forms by the MD-80, MD-90 and Boeing 717. MD-80 Variants were MD-81 MD-82/-88 MD-83 MD-87. as thus: MD-81 = (DC-9-81) MD-82 = (DC-9-82) MD-83 = (DC-9-83) MD-87 = (DC-9-87) MD-88 = An MD-82 with updated glass cockpit of the MD-87. MD-90-30 = A stretched variant with updated glass cockpit and two V2500 engines, also Extended Range (ER) version as the MD-90-30ER. MD-95 = Replacement for the earlier DC-9-30, built as the Boeing 717. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, You asked this (or something like it) before. I didn’t understand exactly what you were asking, so I just figured someone would chime in. I don’t know for sure, but I believe in 1971 the Boeing-727 was the only aircraft flying commercial routes with a T-Tail/Rear fuselage mounted engine configuration. If I’m wrong, I’m sure I’ll be corrected. With other configurations, you possibly could have opened forward and aft passenger doors in flight while unpressurized, but I doubt it. If you could get them open, the exit would be risky due to HIWCS (Human Interference with Control Surfaces)

georger Your question is a good one and related to my question. But, I want “experienced pilots” to respond to my question (in its simplicity) just as I asked it. The question applies to “the flight characteristics of the aircraft,” not to the effect on the jumper. I'm not trying to be coy. In an attempt to destroy my own argument (about Cooper’s knowledge level) I happened on something that strengthens it. I want confirmation from “experienced pilots” before I take everybody down another “dead end.” Since the wheels (landing gear) were down, there might have been some effect on the jump. “Experienced jumpers” could answer that. (Are there any experienced jumpers that still read this thread? ) But that's another issue. Sluggo_Monster PS: I just noticed in the original post, I said; "737." I (of course) meant 727. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

**** quade Flag **** georger, Are you trying to get the thread shut down? I am of the belief that a PA on Jo’s deceased husband is a personal attack on Jo. And, your un-requested evaluation of her moral character is uncalled for. PLEASE apologize and DO NOT get this board shut down. Do this crap by e-mail or something. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Jo, georger, Orange1, et. Al., Please stop it. PLEASE! We aren’t making any progress sniping at each other. There is too much talent here to waste on this crap. Jo, There is no such thing as proving a negative hypothesis. You may hypothesize that Duane WAS D B Cooper, and you may be able to prove that he WAS D B Cooper. To do so, you need facts. I could ask you to prove that I am NOT Galen Cook, how could you do that? Orange1, [Quote] btw, if Cook etc came onto dz.com I would indeed be asking them any and all questions that appear to be the result of logical inconsistencies, fanciful interpretation, leaps of logic, "un-provable" conspiracy theories and so on. So, how do you know Galen Cook is NOT a poster on this board, can you prove it? Have you ever thought that I might be Galen Cook? You want to ask me about my suspect and check my facts? [b ]Georger, Okay, let’s assume Duane was NOT D B Cooper, but wanted to prove to this board that he was. How would he do that? Show you the plane ticket, tell us about something Tina did that hasn’t been made public? Provided DNA that matched the tie? No, he wouldn’t have any of that. So this board would not believe him, just like it doesn’t believe Jo. Now assume that he WAS D B Cooper and wanted to prove that he WAS. Why would he do that? He wouldn’t want to prove (himself) that he was, nor would he want anyone else to prove he was. He would see to it that all “PROVABLE aspects” of the case were destroyed. So, does the fact that Jo doesn’t have provable aspects evidence necessarily mean that Duane wasn’t Cooper? Of course not. Does it mean Duane WAS Cooper? Again, of course not. So, we aren’t going to get very far toward proving that Duane was or wasn’t D B Cooper, or that anyone else was or wasn’t D B Cooper unless we can develop some “secondary leads.” The money find was an excellent “secondary lead” but it happened 29 years ago and we have missed our chance to use modern forensic techniques on it (I know that is debatable, but we’ll discuss that later). When the parachute was found in Amboy last March, no one was carping at each other. We thought that we had found (at last) a secondary lead that we could examine forensically and maybe make some progress. But it wasn’t so. Here are some thoughts that might stimulate the group to move away from the “Jo is obsessed,” the “FBI is hiding something,” the “Galen Cook just wants to sell books” kind of discussions and onto something that the FBI (Remember them? They are the only “REAL” investigators here) could use to crack this 37.7 year old case. Here goes: Ckret pay attention, this is going to ultimately land in your lap! If I were Cooper (and sometimes I think I am ; Drag

AggieDave I don’t want to (try to) speak for Jo, but I think I know why she originally thought you were female. If fact, the first time I saw your post, I thought the same, then I decided you were both male and female (two people, not a hermaphrodite). Let me explain it like this: “Aggie” looks a lot like “Angie.” So, at first glance my mind said this is Angie-something. Then on closer inspection it looked like “AngieDave,” so now I’m thinking of this nice skydiving couple who share an account (as many do, especially “Premium" or "Subscription” accounts). It was only after looking at your profile (or maybe I saw a post that mentioned Texas) that I realized you must be a Texas A&M alumni or fan. All of us aren’t into collegiate sports, or are familiar with the College and University mascots. So screen names that start with Tide, Pirate, Dawg, Jacket, Volunteer, Razorback, War Eagle, Eagle, Gator, or Seminole do not necessarily immediately “hook-up in our brain.” Especially, if it isn’t apparent where you are located. Make sense? Oh, BTW, Jo has a pretty keen “sense of humor” that you guys don’t let come through. When you got “mad, real mad,” you became “Ms” forever (or at least as long as you are adversarial toward her). [That's IMHO] Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

georger, As irritated as I get with Orange1’s constant harassment of Jo, I find myself coming to his defense (as a member of the sky ape/bird turd skydiving community… him, not me). On this forum (thread) we have very few individuals who produce bona fides. Ckret is an experienced LE professional, and is one of the exceptions. Most posters don’t reveal any “areas of expertise” where they are considered “experts.” However, each of the sky ape/bird turd skydivers has their bona fides right in the left-hand margin (if you have your screen set up like mine). Orange1, airtwardo, and AggieDave have at least 5988 jumps between them (I have no idea how many sangrio has, but I’ll bet it is a few). That makes them “experts in the field.” Sluggo_Monster, snowmman, and georger have…… ummm let me see… carry the zero… subtract the j-operator… find the cube-root…. Oh yeah… ZERO jumps between them. So to my way of thinking, when more than one “expert in the field” tells me that something is true… I believe them. I don’t feel like I have to “see it”, although, it would be nice if I could. The reason that this thread is on this forum, on this web site, is because of the skydiving expertise. I understand why they get irritated at the whuffos. I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed access for all of us one day. You have a unique way of investigating NORJAK and have made many positive contributions, please keep doing that. But, please… please… PLEASE… try not to irritate the sky ape/birds turds skydivers, by challenging their opinions in the areas of their expertise. Just a little advice/request from Ckret’s creepy uncle Sluggo, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Boy... the Buzz Sawyer strip brought back childhood memories! My favorites were Smilin' Jack and Steve Canyon. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Ckret, This is mostly for you, but I welcome all other’s comments. Sometimes when I get to thinking about NORJAK, all the witness testimony and other evidence (like the transcripts), I begin to think something BIG is missing. I don’t mean “solve the case big,” I mean “I’m not seeing the whole picture” big. Tonight I started focusing on Tina’s last glance of Cooper while she was closing the F/C curtain. If I have it right, she saw him after he came out of the lavatory and was with him for several minutes before he gave her instructions to; “go to the cockpit, close the curtain, and don’t look back here.” The plane was “wheels-off” at 19:36 and he ordered her forward at 19:41. [This is per the Mid-June transcripts, not my web page timeline.] So, she observed him for a minimum of 5 min (probably a lot more… when you add the time from lavatory exit to takeoff). Therefore, she must have known exactly what he was wearing when he jumped. My big question is: Ckret? Did he have the raincoat on when he jumped (or when Tina saw him tying the bag onto his body)? Surely this issue was discussed in the debrief and in other witness testimony, but everyone discusses it as if he was just in a “business suit”. What my mind sees is a man who went into the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, came out of the (tiny) lavatory in a trench coat, then put on a parachute (like he was accustomed to doing it [per Tina’s testimony]) over the trench coat. To my mind, this does not allow for a discussion (after the fact) that would characterize his dress as “a business suit.” It would seem to me, the likely description would be; “He jumped wearing a black trench coat,” or some such. I don’t know why this is important to me, except that I am still exploring the concept of something really basic being overlooked. Some of you sky apes and bird-turds skydivers, chime in with a description of how wearing a trench coat would have changed the dynamics of the jump. If it didn’t cause some jump-related technical difficulty, it would have made him a lot warmer.

snowmman, In Post #919, Ckret made this request. (Because he sometimes just scans the thread): So: Ckret, snowmman has a question for you in the post above. There, Sluggo_Monster (Ckret's creepy uncle) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

ALL, I’m not speculating! Repeat, I’m not speculating. I AM NOT SPECULATING! Ckret, Even though (in the context presented in this thread (i.e. the info came from a breakfast meeting with Himmelsbach)). Your response reminded me of a life experience, and life experience is what guides my opinions. I went to TMI as part of the Initial Recovery Team (IRT). As far as Health Physics personnel are concerned, the staff on duty at the time of the accident and the IRT were the only people involved prior to the declared entry into Mode IV (declared sub-critical) on day #18 (I believe). This was about 60 to 70 individuals. However, in the 29 years since then, I have talked (personally) to about 400 people who were there before Day #18. And I have read about (sometimes while reading resumes) probably another 100. Boy, it sure was crowded in that little tiny HP Office in the Aux Building. My point is… just like success has many fathers, a major event has many participants. I sure some of the avowed IRT participants were probably at TMI sometime in their past. Maybe before the accident, maybe in the long-term recovery, but (assuming they aren’t consciously lying) they are convinced it was that last week of March and first two weeks of April 1979. Could this be the case with Captain Bohan? I don’t know, I’m just asking. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Georger, From my interpretation of the transcripts (all of them available to me), I believe almost no one at NWA thought it could be done. The Page 99 reference to “ABILITY TO JUMP OUT OF A 707 WITH A PARACHUTE ON IS NIL” is indicative of this. (Once you resolve the “707 vs. 727” issue.) It was Boeing who told them it could be done and Boeing that furnished a procedure to do it (as opposed to NWA). I get the sense that the procedure wasn’t “canned” but rather written while 305 was on the ground at SEA. It was included with the charts and instrument plates sent to the aircraft. So, in summary… I think “surprised” is an adequate description. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, I probably shouldn’t get into this, if fact I choose not to. But since I had this link laying around for another issue, I thought I’d post it. It may have been posted before, but it’s easier to re-post than search. This link is from the University of Texas at Dallas, Library and is liberally referenced. It seems to confirm that no 727s were used by “Air America” for any reason other than Military Air Cargo (MAC) and Civil Air Transport (CAT) contracted missions. That is all well and good. But who is to say that Air America was the only organization flying covert missions in Cambodia or other border countries? I’m not taking a position on whether the CIA used 727s to drop humanitarian cargo, troops, weapons, or covert operatives during the Viet Nam era. But, I still think it was possibly true. We could argue this for weeks, but, I don’t think the proof is unclassified. Also, I don’t see the difference in “the CIA did” and “the CIA knew they could.” It’s all the same as it applies to NORJAK (IMHO). Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight? And I would like to steer away from the “Robertson” issue. That’s what Sluggo gets for having fun with speculation. So, I should have never gone the “2, 4, 6, 8, I am going to Spec – U – Late” route. I guess I’ll learn someday. This is what I tried to convey to georger (unsuccessfully). If we were all in a room, sitting around a table, our facial expressions and voice inflection would help us to understand each other. All that is lost in a forum post. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Hmmmmm..... Reverse 26 - Symetrical or ROT-13-1? You sure you don't work for NSA? Ipguum_Omnihwj Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, georger, Ckret, and All Snowman, You got me. I thought you were full of crap, but I went back and looked, there it was. I thought it would have been a year or more ago, but it was just last June. I never saw the video, but after reading the post (5 min ago) I do remember it. I remember the post about Ed Daley even more though. The only excuse I have is; that time period was when my step-daughter and grandson were here. I would just get on the forum about every two days and read like mad to try to stay up. So… I’m Em-bare-assed. Hey, I’ll survive. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Georger, I guess I’m going to have to send off an order to Amazon.com and buy every “Cooper” book ever published. See how much influence you have had on me? I’m speculating, I’m considering reading “Cooper” books. I’m just damned glad you’re not a skydiver, I don’t want to jump out of an airplane. Give me some time to digest this Bohan thing (it's all news to me), and I’ll get back to you. If I get sidetracked shoot me a reminder in about three days. I’m assuming the book this came from is NORJAK by Ralph Himmelsbach. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ckret, (Ckret likes us to bold questions to him) Did Captain Tom Bohan ever get interviewed? Can you tell us anything about it (if he did)? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All, I was just using the wind-direction thing as an example from personal experience, but, it looks like it might have legs. Can anybody think of any other things that could have been misinterpreted or missed altogether. I have expressed previously that I thought Cooper might have been somewhat of a magician or illusionist (misdirecting witness’ attention). I think a lot of people took the terms (magician and illusionist) too literally. What I mean is, can you think of things that he might have done to have LE looking in the wrong place. Or, some kind of systematic error that could have caused them to look where he wasn’t. Thanks to all, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Orange1 said: I've been around since Moby Dick was a minnow. With my interest in NORJAK, I have read all of every thread on every forum that a search engine will locate. I even have copies of some that are no longer accessible on the internet. I've read all the stories (articles), all the claims, and all the rants and raves. I have a pile of background information on all the suspects, some who have gone public (or had someone go public after their death) and some who have made statements in private. I (personally) am of the belief that everyone has a story to tell. If I listen to their story, it makes them happy, it doesn’t hurt me, and I always learn something. There are other people that feel that listening to a story is only worthwhile if you agree with the story’s conclusions. For those people, listening is like “dancing with a pig,” it gets them all dirty and annoys the pig. I’m glad there is such a variety of flowers in nature’s garden. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, Can't be. Here they are together. You don't ever see Clark Kent and Superman together do you? (Or for that matter, I've never seen Janet Reno and Michael Jackson together. Could they be the same person?)

All, THIS VIDEO is very disturbing, but I found it while researching the B-727 Aft Airstairs. It gives the best visual (that I have seen) on what it would have been like for Cooper standing on the Airstairs in flight. Here is a blurb from the New York Times to go with the video: New York Times Da Nang's Fall Feared Imminent; U.S. Ships Sent to Help Refugees By Malcolm Brown , March 30, 1975 ... At the Da Nang airport yesterday, a Boeing 727, against the advice of many pilots, landed in an attempt to evacuate some civilians —to be met by about 300 South Vietnamese soldiers, armed with rifles and grenades, who forced their way aboard the big jet. Other people, seeking to flee the beleaguered city, lay in front of and under the plane to keep it from leaving. The transport, operated by World Airways, was mobbed by soldiers as it taxied off the runway to the ramp. At least one soldier was seen firing his pistol at the cockpit. The jet finally took off. A big part of one wing-flap was damaged when it reached Saigon. The pilots said after reaching here that the damage had been done by a grenade. Aviation authorities, however, said it appeared that the damage was due to an obstacle in the path of the plane's wheels, not to an explosion. To avoid destruction, the plane took off from the taxiway rather than from the runway. The pilots found the runway jammed with people. They said they knew of no deaths resulting from this. But aviation experts here said after talking to passengers and stowaways on the plane that between 20 and 30 persons had probably been killed — some run over on take-off, some dropping away from the wheel wells and the cargo hold. The aviation authorities said the body of one soldier had been found in a wheel well on arrival here; others on the flight said that unknown numbers of others had dropped off the plane in flight. When the plane arrived in Saigon, the mutinous troops were put under guard. Except for the World Airways Boeing, no aircraft were reported to have landed at Da Nang yesterday. I need to watch it again, but I believe at 3:15 they are at 6000 feet altitude and probably close to the speed Flight 305 was going (with a little more weight on the stairs) when Cooper jumped. It shows Ed Daley climbing out onto the stairs. Here’s another blurb: At Da Nang, a civilian airlift began, presaging the later confusion and terror at Saigon. Edward J. Daly, president of World Airways, defied US Ambassador Graham A. Martin and dispatched two Boeing 727s to Da Nang, flying on the first one himself. After landing, his airplane was mobbed by thousands of people, some 270 of whom were finally jammed on board. (All but a handful of these were armed soldiers-not the civilians that Daly had intended to evacuate.) The 727 took off amid gunfire and a grenade explosion that damaged the flaps. It hit a fence and a vehicle before staggering into the air. People had crowded into the wheel well, and one man was crushed as the gear came up and jammed. Somehow the 727 made it back to Saigon, gear down and with split flaps, managing to land safely. The dreadful photos of the dead man's feet hanging from the gear doors told the miserable story. Ironically the one man's death saved four others who had also climbed into the wheel well, for his crushed body had prevented the gear from retracting all the way. Later, when the details of the overweight and damage-laden takeoff were sent to Boeing for analysis, the response was that the 727 should not have been able to fly. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Here's something interesting: Jo, says (assuming she is telling the truth) Duane worked for a company called “Government Employees Benefit Ass.” Here’s a blurb from their web site: Government Employees Benefit Ass. insures the CIA, NSA, ONI and other intelligence agencies. United States Intelligence Community: GEBA is available to active civilian employees and retirees of the United States Intelligence Community and their families. GEBA benefits are also available to military and contractors assigned to NSA-W. Agencies include: Office of the Director of National Intelligence, Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), Federal Bureau of Investigation, Directorate of Intelligence, National Security Branch (FBI), National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), National Security Agency (NSA), Drug Enforcement Administration, Intelligence Division (DEA), Department of Energy, Office of Intelligence, Department of Homeland Security, Office of Intelligence and Analysis (DHS), Department of State, Bureau of Intelligence and Analysis, Department of Treasury, Office of Intelligence and Analysis, U.S. Air Force/ Intelligence and Air Intelligence Agency, U.S. Army/DCS, G2 & Intelligence & Security Command, U.S. Coast Guard/Intelligence & Criminal Investigations, U.S. Marine Corps/Intelligence & Marine Corp Intelligence Activity, U.S. Navy/Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) Sluggo_Monster PS: See attached excerpt from “Sons and Brothers” [See attached Sons And Brothers1.jpg] {NOTE: Red underline (mine)} Sons & Brothers: The Days of Jack and Bobby Kennedy By Richard D. Mahoney Published by Arcade Publishing, 1999 ISBN 1559704802, 9781559704809 441 pages Mahoney, former JFK Scholar at the U. of Massachusetts and the Kennedy Library and current teacher at the Thunderbird School of International Management in Phoenix, provides a dual biography of Jack and Bobby Kennedy, describing their relationship and the role their bond played in their accomplishments, blunders and, ultimately, their murders. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

EDIT: Emphasis added to "Zenith Technological Enterprises" to tie to next post. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, In a recent post I made this statement: Most of you might say… So, what’s the point? When I started my web site and decided that the emphasis was going to be on separating the “facts” from the “myths,” I didn’t realize a couple of things. One, was how much time and energy it would take. And, two, was how the site’s position had to be my position. After I started the site, I felt like I needed to refrain from speculation, for fear that speculation would be confused with myth and I would be criticized for not honoring the commitment. A recent post by georger, made me realize that I might be able to express my speculations on this board without it compromising my position on the site. Maybe I have been too sensitive about an issue that no one but me sees. So, I’m going to slowly wade into the waters of speculation and see where it takes me. Also, georger mentioned a “simple thing” that might have thrown the whole investigation off. NOTE: The text below is pure speculation coming from the ass mouth of Sluggo_Monster. Do not confuse it with a position based on any evidence (published or unpublished). This is detailed, so please bear with me. I worked for a commercial nuclear plant in the Western United States (un-named) in 1991 and 1992. I was asked to develop some training for the Corporate Nuclear Engineers on their Emergency Airborne Release System (EARS). This was some software that enabled them to track a plume from the plant vent stack in the event they had to perform an emergency vent-to-atmosphere after a primary system break or leak. (Think TMI) I had to first understand the system myself, so I buried myself in the requirements, regulations, and operations manuals. After that I was a “system expert.” In order to understand how these corporate engineers would interface with the system I took a trip to the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) to see what they had to do and what they would see. When I got to the Offsite Dose Tracking Station in the EOC I saw a large map with the plant at the center and 16 pie-shaped slices (Zones). The problem was that all the zones were on the wrong side of the map. Every one of them had been rotated 180 degrees from what was described in the systems manual. I asked one of the emergency planners about it they said; “When we get a NNW wind the plume goes to zone 1 (in the 11 o’clock position on the map.) Well, to make a long story short, the person who made the map thought wind directions were expressed as “to the compass point” instead of “from the compass point.” The software was correct, but in drills and exercises, they were “painting” the plume 180 degrees from where it existed. Now, this is a big organization, it has some really smart and dedicated people working for it. But the error was made at a low level, and everyone at a high level assumed it was right. Remember the Martian probe where part of the software (from Vendor A) was using metric measurements and another part of the software (from Vendor B) was using English measurements. That type of mistake often occurs in BIG organizations or when multiple agencies are working on small pieces of the project. Now, can you see where I’m going with this? What if someone responsible for determining the JZ for NORJAK, thought the wind was “blowing to” rather than “blowing from?” With all the involved LE agencies, Boeing, and NWA working on “pieces parts,” could an error have been made? Where would that put Cooper at the original (Lake Merwin) JZ or with the new (Orchards) JZ? Think about it and get back to me. In the mean time, I’m gonna look at some maps. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

georger, Thank you. That was a very good and informative post. A few comments: I believe I said: I did not say nor imply that you were simple minded. What I did say was: You said: I like your analogy of a ‘missing link” or “evidence gap.” I have thought about this a lot in the last 9 months and I have discussed some hypothetical scenarios with some of those on this board. (Maybe I’ll share some of them with the whole board someday.) I very much agree with you, the solution is going to revolve around some very simple (but un-acknowledged) action. And oh yeah… You said: Exactly what generation do you suppose I am from? I’m a prime Boomer (60 years young). I remember the little-person page yelling throughout the hotel. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

To: quade, georger, and snowmman From: Sluggo_Monster Subject: I do not wish to be insulting As I mentioned in my post to georger, there is something about my personality that doesn’t transition well to internet forum post. I made every attempt to show that I was being positive with statements such as: “You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum.” “I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly.” And “As I have said before, I value your opinions and appreciate the energy and resources you have put into these discussions.” Evidently, once again, there is something about my style (personality) that loses itself in translation. To honor quade’s wishes, I will just drop the subject and not respond to georger’s last post. It is not that it doesn’t deserve a response (because I don’t want him to think ill of me), but I just don’t want to be responsible for causing the best thread going on D B Cooper to be shut down because I can’t express myself well enough to be understood. As far as snowmman’s post: I want to say this up front. I have no “special” information about the D B Cooper (NORJAK) investigation. I see the same articles everyone else sees. I watch the same videos everyone else watches. However, I do not read the same books everyone else reads. I think books (for profit) do not necessarily contain factual information. It is difficult to make a determination between the author’s speculation and factual accounts. That is not to say that everything in a book is speculation. It is just to say, that I can’t distinguish between fact and speculation. So, when presented with something like “a quickie map,” my response is always going to be “What quickie map?” It is not a value judgment, it is an honest lack of familiarity. What I know about the first few days after the skyjacking wouldn’t fill a thimble. That’s it! That’s the truth! I’m not being coy. I’m not making derisive statements. And I’m not consciously insulting anyone. As for what I am trying to refute. I do not like for people (anyone) to attributed statements to me, that I did not make. Pure and simple. And I think anyone should be able to understand that I am running a web site that I would very much like to have the highest credibility of any site centered on NORJAK. When someone attributes a statement to me which is untrue, they are jeopardizing my credibility. If I have to cease participating on internet forums to preserve my credibility, that’s what I will do. It’s not what I want to do, but it’s what I may have to do. As far as my theories are concerned, I have a few. Most of you know that I think Cooper knew he was on V-23 and knew where he was when they made the turn at the BTG VORTAC. That isn’t exactly news. As far as money transport, I defer to SafecrackingPLF, Ckret and anyone else who has actually done work to establish or refute any of the theories. You may have noticed that I don’t express many opinions about any of the theories expressed on this (or any) board. I am in the process of determining what I want my role to be. And it is looking less like an “investigator” and more like a “chronicler of data.” And while I’m on a role here… I have no “special relationship” with Ckret. I beg him for scraps from the FBI’s table and he sometimes favors me with a few. I place them on my web site and notify the major boards that they are there. It is a purely symbiotic relationship. I get some goodies to publish, and he doesn’t have to send stuff out in twenty dozen e-mails. I am very thankful that Ckret was given the NORJAK case. His attitude about releasing information to the public meets my needs very nicely. I am not his “handmaiden.” I very seldom get information or explanations about the data he provides. Ckret has his own challenges, and he can represent himself very well (and usually does). If you are of the belief that Ckret (or the FBI as an entity) are holding back information, you may be right. Ask Ckret about it, not me. And if you are not getting what you want or need, file an FOIA Request. So, that’s it. No insults, no derisive remarks, just plain, honest Sluggo (Trying to get by being quite and shy in a world full of push and shove.) Have a good night, Sluggo_Monster (wondering WTF) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

georger, You remember a few weeks ago, when I made a post stating that I wasn’t posting often because I seem to kill the thread? I said I didn’t mean to, but it was just a part of my personality. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t let you know that sometimes your posting style is “downright insulting”. You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum. But I deem your last post as “insulting.” And, BTW, you aren’t alone, there are others who post here, that don’t seem very respectful of others. Whether you mean to be insulting or not, I will continue to respond to your posts for a couple of reasons. One, I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly. Now to the subject at hand. Sonderlind’s map? You know something I don’t? Quick-Map? I have absolutely no way to estimate a date for this map, except that it (the sectional chart) was issued before PDX was a “Class C Airspace” and is consistent with a 1971 chart. As for the marks? Ckret could have put them there right before the FBI posted it on their web site. (Or, maybe they were used in January 1972 to define a search area.) Again, you know something I don’t? You have knowledge of two radars tracking Flight 305? Would SEA ATC radar be the McChord or PDX radar? If you know where Cooper bailed, then why am I wasting my time trying to understand the flight path? I have no idea what you mean about “faulty memory after the fact.” Here is one of the insults I mentioned. I feel that I understand the error because I have made the error. 377 says that he has made the error. So, in your opinion, Sluggo and 377 are incompetent, stupid, and morons. Thanks. Afternoon stroll? Are you a McCann campaign strategist? That has ZERO intellectual value. [Look up “cone of confusion," and then practice setting multiple nav radios under stress, then get back to me.] When we first communicated (on another board) I “strongly cautioned” you about assigning statements to me, when I have never made them. I would like to “strongly cautioned” you again. I never made any such statement. I said that the 1st plot point was probably where the plane appeared on radar (when they climbed to 10,000 feet from 7.000 feet). The last person who would have a map of their location would be the pilots. Commercial pilots do not plot their paths like ships do in the movies. I have no knowledge of any “notes by the pilot”. Would that “time” be the 20:11 time, the 20:15 time, or some other time. Well we almost agree here (batting 0.500). Not a strong argument, but not necessarily a plausible scenario. Oh, I just figured out why they occurred near Portland. It’s because that’s where they occurred. If they had been somewhere else, they wouldn’t have occurred around Portland.

No it does not depart from where I think they would go. I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg] Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

The photo attached to my previous post has a funky coordinate format. It is as follows: Where H = Hemisphere; D = Degrees; M = Minute the format is: HDDDMM.MMM (leading zero is dropped from degrees) So, N4536.125 W12245.280 Is 45º 36.125’ North and 122º 45.280’ West Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum