VectorBoy

Yes we are sad when we pay higher power rates because all of our hydro has dried up. Then they say we can't water our lawns as much as we need to keep them green. So sadly we get over to our DZ thats open 264 days a year and PAAAARRRRRTTTTYYY!

Sorry Tom, I do agree with your requests and the reasoning behind it. I'm just poking fun at your approach to it. But I've heard from people that know you that you are good hearted and can take it. I don't base but I respect the guys that push their side of our respective envelope no matter what the discipline, Base, swoop, wingsuit, etc. And whatever it takes to get to that edge and maintain a working relationship with that environment. I really LOVE watching all of these visuals in whatever format I can and would not like it if it was all done in secret. These videos are good can't believe you want to keep them to yourself and not share. Most of the locals always want stuff for themselves whether it is a stretch of beach or a desert Oasis. Have you gone to the beach in malibu lately? Seems the stars have hired a security guard to try and kick you off of the pacific ocean. Locals only. I know base is especially sensitive to locals wishes and desires of not getting sites burned. And anyone wishing to indulge in base needs to operate as a guest or as a phantom that was never there. Please stop picking on dumb skydivers. If somebody goes base jumping they are now a base jumper regardless if they've done their homework or sought the proper channels of instruction and etiquette. Skydivers jump from aircraft, basers from fixed objects. Well unless you can convince someone you are still a wuffo because you just grabbed a rig and jumped from a plane without ever getting training. Keep them videos rolling even if you have to pixel some faces and road signs, Hey you can even dub in the opening sound track from "cops". Bad boyz bad boyz what you gonna doo.

The terminal wall in Northern Italy is very well known, but the number of accidents there is quite high. Access to the cliff is threatened by repeated incidents, many of which have involved inexperienced BASE jumpers who heard about the cliff at a dropzone, or on forums like this one. I heard about it from a wonderful video that showcases all kinds of jumping all over the world, Don't remember any bleeping of names in it. ( cone of silence off - inspecter gadjet out)

Can someone describe the showers, baths and tent city for us?

Low is anything under 4 thou, wing suit flight. High is anything that will hang your PC or bridle above the horizontal stabilizer of the aircraft or in danger of hypoxia.

[Any suggestions? Yes get more tatoos.

Ferrari-Carano, the tresor.

This was a concern of mine this past weekend flying crew and being loaded up with twenty pounds of lead. Not landing the lightning but my rumoured missbehaving and under capable reserve at 1.3 . I think I need a test flight.

Lesson two is that I will emphasize practice pulls as much as I emphasize not hitting the plane. __________________________________________________ I had a very nasty spin up down through the risers on my cobalt. I was 90 degrees out on the horizon from my canopy. Probably my nastiest ever, even though I tipically get the best deployments on my wingsuit. One smooth action chopped my wings without looking down to find the loop and had my main & reserve handles in hand. Wing cuttaways still wrapped around my thumbs. A split second before my main chose to fly straight and level letting the twists resolve themselves while I hung there in wonderment of how fast I reacted properly. Wing cuttaways down my shirt and a smile on my face. It could happen on any canopy! Practice those pulls every time. Glen

It would be hard to get bored in any wingsuit in 20 jumps. There is much to perfect. And there is a larger margin of forgiveness on the classic. In flocks you will probably still be able to hang with the others because they will dirty it up and stay relative . And that suit is where you will learn to do all of your tricks. Although I don't believe that the difference between the classic and the gti is that great. You really can't loose either way. You will not regret the classic. If you are ever of the opinion that you need to be on a bigger suit, to fly slower because you can't perfect the position, then that is the biggest reason not to be on a bigger wing. Glen

This is all fine and dandy.. The fact remains that you have to have your head on your shoulders swooping.. ________________________________________________ Awe and I was waiting for this, see you assume I was swooping, and I was not. Simply an accuracy type landing at the Apex of the pond. I could not convince my friends I wasn't swooping, I didn't even try to convince the DZO I wasn't swooping. I don't swoop on land and I didn't then. Had this been a reportable incident... it would have been a low time pilot on a heavily loaded HP... who should not have been swooping! Quite a bit different, in my view. It's easy to blame the plane form or the wing loading when it's even a small fraction of the cause. Outside of that jump, I have suffered more pain and strain in the packing area closing my rig, not a bruise - not a scratch, than in two hundred jumps on the same canopy.

[Dual message? I don't understand. Do mean that because I fly a small canopy that i am being hypocritical by being for some sort of canopy regulations/education? The fact remains ( my view is its not what I think but what do you think) you load at 3:1 , not for experiments with data loggers, not as a factory test pilot , but in your daily rig and at an impressive landing density altitude( at your home DZ ) that I will tell you I can't even breath at let alone really perform at. And everybody on a factory team doesn't load that high. And before we get off on the wrong foot I will never be part of a group that tells you how to load and fly( just asking you to review self and the message it sends out), at my current jump numbers or ever. I will never say we need to stop the needless base deaths that happen every year or the countless deaths of 19 year olds on ultra high performance motorcycles.......Ever. I will never judge the way you fly or your choices and if you are kicking ass i will ask you for help and advice to be sure. I will fight right along side of you if some organisation says " derek you just can't do what you've been doing anymore". And I'm not saying that you propose these particular changes into an ISP or BSR. No.... someone else might. If I have had the opportunity to know the true reason for the the deaths, whether it was equiptment related or lack of training related, attitude related, recreational drug use related. I could give you a gods honest answer. As I see it published in the uspa magazine ( only 3rd gen info ) I can't tell you. Half the time wing loading ( your champion issue BTW) isn't reported or for lack of a better word planform factor. Sometimes we get a hint of previous aggressive behavior but thats rare. If I was on the accident investigation board of the USPA, and I don't for one second believe one exists beyond local DZOs s&ta and an on scene rigger and coroners, I would have a hard time telling you what the primary preventable situation resulting in death was. If the person recently down sized or was on an HP before their time its easy to find the blame. Now if they try to be like their heroes and are swooping with low experience then its obvious. But I'm not convinced every example was a swoop gone bad. A young and very loved person perished at eloy recently nobody can tell us went wrong its kind of the nebulous factor no downsizing or hp canopy or that off brand canopy that collapses when you least expect it to blame. It just happened I'm sure if it was me or a select few of my peers it would be very easy to say it was those assholes, on their hps, before their time. quote unqoute. and you know it. ***Why, exactly, are you against the idea more canopy training at each license level and wingloading maximums, based on jump numbers, with the option to exceed these maximums on a case-by-case basis? Let me say now I'm not against training or coaching of any kind. If we could do this and keep the same old routine and expense I would be for it all the way. But if you are asking the governing body to place restrictions and conduct overt policing, when I believe they have their hands full at the federal and state level fighting and dealing with angry municipal airport bureaucracies and other monumental forces that don't care about what we do and could care less about our desire to hurl ourselves out of airplanes. And would be happy If we shut down, heck we are all crazy anyway right. Its my view thats their main job, we have to worry about us. There is a big difference in cultures in dropzones across the US. What is exceptable and what is not. Currently there is no solution as it is. _________________________________________________ The trend is not that newer jumpers are getting smarter about their canopy choices, the opposite is true. Sitting back and waiting for the trend to reverse doesn't seem like a good plan. ________________________________________________- Really I haven't seen a good low alti toggle hook in over two years. You don't think there is a smartening of the masses? Only speaking for My DZ now, don't know what you are seeing out there. I haven't seen the free-flying restrictions before. __________________________________________________ Talk to the many overseas visitors and see what their organization mandates in terms of FF. Lets not get closer to frances style of controling Le swoop.

I didn't realize you were in the demographics being targeted. My proposal offers an 'out' for people that desire to downsize faster than normal, with more training/education. Why is this so bad? __________________________________________________ I was only saying that I act accordingly knowing I'm in the dangerzone, I don't feel targeted but feel I must act responsably given my choices. Glen __________________________________________________ Do you not agree that the current system of peer pressure, DZO's and S & TA's is not working? __________________________________________________ I can't speak for other DZs but I think there is a dual mesage being sent, something along the lines of do as I say not as I do. But in the end its up to each individual jumper to do the right thing. Glen _________________________________________________ Do you feel that the current, rising, level of injuries/fatalities is acceptable? _________________________________________________ I can't speak for events that I don't have a first hand knowledge of but from three events from harsh to benign. With three jumpers from the same school about the same time same instruction. 1) being a canopy collision at low altitude resulting in death. A recent downsize on a regular sport canopy was implicated as part of the reason,we will never know but a collision is a collision. 2) an honest to goodness low riser turn on a fairly loaded HP canopy with video resulting in broken bones and months of recovery. 3) a loss of alti awareness no flare water displacement landing under a moderately loaded HP canopy resulting in sore ribs.This jumper has known about water alti awareness for over 20 years of flying aircraft, it was covered in water training months prior, it was talked about the day before and moments before this jump it was fresh in his mind. I know this because it was me and until I experienced it I could not impress apon anyone this sensation. I appreciate this as a very valueable lesson learned the easy way. In a stastistical forum its been said that a partial factor in each of these cases was downsizing too soon for similar jumpers with similar training backgrounds all with under 300 jumps experience. How many of the three of us would this addition to our BSRs have helped. What was the "attitude of the jumpers", All were pretty curent. Were there any other circumstances that played a much greater role than a too small canopy. My question is Are we dying under small HP's or all kinds of canopys at all kinds of loadings?Glen _________________________________________________ Why, exactly, are you against the idea more canopy training at each license level and wingloading maximums, based on jump numbers, with the option to exceed these maximums on a case-by-case basis? _________________________________________________ Because I don't think its the sole reason for ALL these deaths or injuries unless you are only refering to guys trying to swoop and biting it. But I think we are talking about ALL canopy related events instead.Glen __________________________________________________ Are you against minumum pull altitudes based on jump numbers/license held? _________________________________________________ No and my personal choice is to pull high for FF and even higher for wingsuit. I don't think that the BSRs changed this. I think jumpers as a collective got smart about this. enforcement had little to do with it, not as much as equiptment changes and newer minds joining the sport and saying that its not for them. Glen __________________________________________________ Are you against reserve re-pack cycles? __________________________________________________ No not at all but going on the open advice I'm not opposed to the six month cycle. Here I'm with the flow. But I will tell you I'm way opposed to the you need 100 jumps before you freefly and 200 jumps before you go head down that some other organisations have. I was never opposed to 500 jumps prior to wingsuit flight but am personally glad that with instruction 200 is acceptable . Not everyone agrees here. I had a discussion with a very experienced person with very many years in the sport about wing suits. And it was equated to snowboards on mostly skiers mountains. In the begining they were only seen as reckless and dangerous. Now its impossable not to crowd them because they have taken over and are now the majority, represent responsable people from all walks. Gone sking lately? Glen

You sound equally disappointed about the perceived demise fun-jumper oriented DZ's as you are about students with a 'death wish'. No Derek I am extremely disappointed ( and not just in skydiving ) when we feel we need to enact more rules, more procedure, more costs to a system that is working fine but is being ignored, bypassed or violated by a handful that know they are doing it. I'm sorry but my FJC and AFF training was good and proper, I got dollar for dollar on its value. So did anyone who went through about the time I did. I'm not saying everybody does everywhere all the time. It was what we needed to be safe under lightly loaded mains in light and variable winds with a clear head and a responsable attitude. The Mantra "no low turns-no low turns" still rings in my head. I learned braked turns and flat turns and what to do if someone cuts me off. What they did not teach me to do was to be "spectacular" like the guys from team extreme. I was told if I tried to emulate them without putting in the years and required effort to gain their experience I was going to die! They told me and I believe this. On a personal level I am so tired of people trying to protect everybody from their guns, getting out in the desert and hurting ecosystem or their own system, perceived threat from weapons of mass destruction or creating work safety protocals that are oppresive and counter productive to the work to be done. Finacial constraints on businesses to protect it from practices that were already illegal. That were never needed because we have a system already that was good enough and it was violated by people who know better were trained better and made a personal choice to break the law or do otherwise. I believe we should punish the offenders ( in the world ) not the entire population. Unfurtunatly in skydiving this means self inflicted breakage. And be advised I'm fully aware I'm in your target demographic of jump numbers to wingloading danger zone. I sought the advice of very experienced people that I respected about my decision and it is up for constant review and feedback. I even listen to people who I don't respect , who I feel don't have a grip on their own canopy capabilities and who offer advise bundled with personal prejudice. And severe lack of skills on this subject regardless of other lofty acomplishments in their skydiving careers. I'm not aggressive and try to make very responsable decisions about what I do and how it effects my loved ones, the sport and my hiney. But I would feel exactly the same on this issue if I were at a much more conservative loading. I do have a concern that a minimum jump-vs- wingload progression may just move the injuries up the scale to people with more jump numbers if they don't also seek training or additional advise. You may say that they will have experience, but that highly loaded main will be new to them. My rant is over and I apologise to anyone who may feel that I have shared a stern word over this subject that I feel pretty passionate about. [I have two canopies, a Safire 189 and a VX-60. I can land both of them, but the VX is more spectacular. There is no way to make landing my Safire look better than my VX to spectators, not without injury anyway. [The current system of peer pressure and advice with the occasional grounding or lecture isn't working. Again, I ask, what cost (what bill)? Hook

A couple of things that the sabre2 is going to do for you that you haven't yet experienced is the flare. It will be more sensitive in both timing and balance from side to side. The blanket statement that a sabre2 is a fine canopy just off student status needs to be buffered with for those jumpers who are not having trouble pulling one toggle more than the other during the flare. Something that would be more forgiving on a seven cell ( excluding the diablo ). There is enough taper to this canopy to give newer jumpers landing trouble. Once a jumper has this awareness the sabre2 rocks as a fun canopy that flies and opens great.

All of these are just rules and toys to make the sport safer. By haveing them you take some personal freedom away, but you add saftey for all. So as you see...Leaving to the individual jumper is not working, and regulation, like it or not is all around you, and this sport. Ron _________________________________________________ I don't see it as simply regulation. I see it as a way to give our governing body another job to do without getting the true support of all its members. I see the potential for added costs to potential students in the form of extra classes making it prohibitive for some to finish training, I hear we are hurting for new members as it is. Or other costs put on dz operators or schools if they have to host more mandatory schooling or policeing. These costs will be absorbed by the fun jumpers and new students probably not the tandems. Here we go tandem mills bye, bye fun jumpers and occasional deathwish in training jumper. Maybe your are ready to pay more for jumps to cover any accrued costs passed on to the operation and then you. I am not. I am prepared to listen to any advice about my skydiving that I can get and seek it out regularly. Shared knowledge Its been said you, we ,us are the uspa. We need to make the change. Help train others about canopy flight. Those that feel so positively about the canopy dilemma should take a very aggressive role in being a positive role models for others, Do I "have" to fly a crossbraced? Can I get on a fun-safe- perky spectre at reasonable wing loading and show its value until someone has accrued the proper skills? Make that look good. Don't get me wrong I'm not tellin anyone what to fly. Just do our parts for change before we ask someone else to and then cry when we get the bill for it.

geronimo is Jan Meyer, a national director and a member of the safety and training committee. btw, my thanks to both Jan and DJan for reading and contributing to the discussions here. It's a good thing to have board members making themselves available to us like this. I would like to second that thanks and after reading their contributions I'd like to say I am so loving my USPA!

I've got my pullout set up so I can change between throwout and pullout in about 1 minute, so I tend to opt towards the throwout when I fly my suit, but you certainly can jump a wingsuit with a pullout safely. Interesting, can you give us a description of your system?

Naw man like da monkey says its sexy baby, SF3 is sexy. Don't worry we can get you one in colors that say manly man from groom lake. Since your not too much into freeflying, just serious SERIOUS 4way, those loud colors do question your manlyhood. The wonderful people BMI can hook you up and you will get to keep your 4-way porn director pimp status, just be nice to KIM no negative dork comments please.

I'm always up for wingsuit jump and always have it with. I like your Idea and I'm game. Glen

What?

Quade you ridicule that which you fear.... will take you away from your tedious 4-way. And it will if you ever put the suit on. And stop treating it like bird men are modeling underwear, we are flying through the sky at hundreds of miles an hour with our hair on fire, we are not girly men to be posed on the ground to sell parfum.

Yes Lou I have actually done just one jump with JP but he did disappear into a cloud. I try to remain VFR on top so I didn't follow. As to Quade's comment, by now everyone is well aware that he is just out to ridicule that which he fears will take him away from comp 4-way vidiot. He has already had the BM ground school if he wants to come along he has to wear the wing suit! Lessee who has a demo suit in his size?

Should they ban 1200 jump veterans that face plant 50% of the time? Who will do the inspections? Would jumpers be able to lie about what gear they are jumping? Its really not their job you know. Its YOUR job not to kill YOURSELF. lets try that for a change.

[But here's a question for you. Do you use a pullout? If not, why not? They are arguably better for freeflying. I'll take that arguement I don't think they are any safer than well maintained modern container throw out and many freefliers that agree. Plus they are not recommended for wingsuit jumps.