VectorBoy

You said hyjack but you commit SABOTAGE!

Did Frank spray pam on them again?

Kim, will you be bringing any demo skyflyer 3s with you or just the classic and GTI for first timers? There are enough guys that have a fair amount of jumps on their classics to test ride the skyflyer now. sadly it has been rumored that bird-man doesn't have any demo skyflyers, they are sold as fast as can be fabricated.

I guess you can include the crossfire into that group also. It has a semi closed nose to. Any other non-crossbraced canopys with semi closed noses out there?

I had it done to my 13 tear old vector 2 for ten bucks. It took ten minutes, with the risers still on the rig ,

I didn't know he was in the sport that long. I was led to believe he was averaging 1000 jumps a year. Was the first incedent a swoop gone bad or just an accident at too high a wing loading?

Yes, back in 2001 I believe, august or september. Riser block not properly stiched correct? Equiptment issue or skill related?

However, Brett (a different one) would have been. He won the slalom at the last Perris swoop meet. At that meet he said something very interesting to me: "Bill, I remember you were always giving me shit because I was jumping canopies that were too small, and you were always telling me to get coaching. I ignored you, and I really fucked up my leg. When I got back, I got coaching from some people, and even upsized. And that made a huge difference. I should have listened to you." I hope you are not refering to the swooper that had a rear riser block come off during a carve on the swoop course? This would be an equiptment issue and at well over 1500 jumps during this time he wouldn't be a newbie despite only being in the sport a short time. Although I'm sure your advice to him was good and he appreciates it now, there is not much anybody can do when they are laid out flat in a high speed carve and experience a gear malfunction. Of course it could be somebody entirely different

I can't even start to tell you the number of people I have told to be careful, and then latter seen carried off. So if these people are unwilling to listen Ron I listening, please start to tell me exactly how many. Exactly what was their wing loading, canopy planform type, jump numbers. You don't have to name names or anything but be accurate with the numbers and let see if we have some overloaded HP canopy injury pandemic on our hands. "telethon operators are standing by"

This is what is wrong with this community. Everybody wants to BSR and regulate what gear you play on when they should be worried about this type of posting! My best interest, my best interest? All I wanted was a pepsi and you post this shit. Get help!

Quote>But I want to know about guys in the field currently flying this >extreme gear choice NOT the spectre of or rumor of or unreasonable >Fear of the possibility of maybe that this could be. ok, three examples from our DZ. I'll call them Larry, Curly and Moe. Larry, Curly and Moe all got fairly aggressive HP canopies - 1.7 to 1 Stilettos and a 1.8 to 1 Sabre. They had around 200 jumps. Larry would come into the landing area yelling "Get out of my way!" because he couldn't control where he landed __________________________________________________ Still not the extreme example of 50 jumps at a loading of 2:0. which would be scary to say the least. You are talking about elipticals at 1.7 and 200 jumps. And this is more of my understanding of pushing the envelope for canopy progression. I know several people who fall into a similar category. Derek back when he was around those jump numbers and myself around those jump numbers, I know others too. Not too many but this is covered in that I do believe this to exist. I can't speak for Dereck, I can only assume in his case as is the fact in my case, we never had to yell at anyone to get out of our way, crashed into or narrowly missed any objects on landing. I'm pretty confident that we would not be allowed to operate so recklessly in the main landing areas at our DZs. Speaking for the main landing areas at Perris and elsinore, compliance is mandatory you must not be dangerous and MUST be able to provide for a fair degree of accuracy in your pattern and landing and the follow the rules for those areas. Now you can do what you want if you land out at both DZs as long as isn't so dangerous that it draws the negative attention of the DZO-S&TA. Landing out its completely acceptable (although not to me) to be completely out of control on any main at any amount of jump numbers at any wing loading. I have seen this from the 45 jump very non current yet to be licensed jumper struggling through their finances to the multi thousand jump very experienced and current, maybe a little older less physically fit, jumper both typically loaded around 1:1. Much more often than not when the paramedics visit us its for these folks not Larry curly or moe. If your three stooges example had been landing out their antics would have drawn no more attention than the antics of the lightly loaded non- landing folks. Don't get me wrong in anyway, I agree those three lads in no way belong on their chosen gear. If I operated so poorly, I would not be on the gear I choose and upsizing and or training to meet a safe standard would be the order of the day. Crashing into airspeed 8 would be a scaring memory. Now softly sliding into passion 8 might be fun though. What do you think when I suggest we need training at all levels available to a broad range of people? As the fatality numbers suggest its broad range of experience levels and wing loadings that make up the fatalities. I know its easy to write a BSR for the newer jumpers but how do you address the jumpers with more than enough jumps and maybe more than a decade in the sport. The grim reaper has no favorites.

My suggestion would be SkyDance SkyDiving. They have been doing it for quite a number of years, with an extremely professional organizer brought in each time to coordinate the event. Chamber ride is required so you can see the physiological effects of 30K+ altitudes before you go. It's not just a longer skydive. Heh el Diablo, do you think they will let me do it in my wingsuit? I will wear a mode C transponder if I have to. And I promise not to buzz any 737s. I don't want to upset gramma from omaha's trip to reno.

People definitely try. This sole example is rolled out like the kid in the wheelchair at the jerry lewis telethon or the effigy (spell?) in the middle of march for jihad. And of course it could very well have been a telephonic troll to aggravate the resident canopy nazi. Or just someone who really needs a canopy education and hopefully got some advice on gear. But I want to know about guys in the field currently flying this extreme gear choice NOT the spectre of or rumor of or unreasonable fear of the possibility of maybe that this could be. I WANT TO KNOW DOES THIS HAPPEN: proove it! We all know canopys can snivel for 1200 feet- NOT! Check video, now I'm supposed to write my USPA for some proposed changes about something that as far as I'm concerned does not exist, the actual fatality numbers don't say this exists. If you think it does CHECK VIDEO. Show me the video , I'll buy the beer.

Updating the SIM is a good idea, but the people who really need the education (i.e. the people at 50 jumps loading 2:1 because they know they are exceptional natural canopy pilots who don't need training) . 50 jumps loaded at 2:1- does this truelly exist or are all the sabre rattlers creating some hypothetical phantom menace to put the scare into everbody to react into voting some BSR that won't really address the real " issue". 50 jumps @ 2:1 come on people I've never heard of this, not even in rumor not ever. Open letter to all gear dealers, does this person this menace exist? People who make wrong gear choices, overload a reserve, fly a main a size or two smaller than their abilities suggest they should, get on an elliptical before the factory or the dealer or an instructer says they should, yes. This we all know happens much to the chagrin of those that know better. 50 jumps @2:0? are we suggesting its a crossbraced too? At 50 jumps? Really, come on and wake up people what is it that we fear?

That's why I like Derek's proposal to create a canopy instructor rating. You may create a canopy instructor rating but unless you clone someone who has developed clints delicate site picture its pretty much worthless to me. I've already sat in on a coversation from a couple of lads from an isolated DZ and watched the propagation of outright idiocy in regards to hp canopy flight. I have no dought that when JC went there he could have done much good, wonder how many took advantage of his visit.

Several proposals have been made that provide for the creation of an infrastructure. If we already had qualified canopy control instructors/coaches at every dz in the US we wouldn't be having this debate. We do indeed have qualified instruction but not everyone has "extreme canopy experienced instruction". Billvon or anyone like him can teach some basic canopy life saving stuff. But if I want to surf like Heath I better hook up with him then. I 've seen a few of the "big dogs from the tour" taking some fine tuning courses from our jim and our boys and they had to travel to do it. I would seek very specific training from clint if I was going to entertain any attempt at real swooping, nothing else would do, IMO.

Yes this can be a hurdle even here at our big DZ now imagine you are from a small isolated DZ. Seems we want to place restrictions with an option to out based on something there is no infrastructer for. Very dubious indeed.

[Education is THE answer...the problem is that the group that needs it...Does not think they do. Ron I agree, so lets GROUND the 1000 + jump skydivers that are lightly loaded but: 1) Don't know what crossports are despite being intercontenental bigway experienced. 2) Aren't aware of other people in the pattern 50% of the time. But can't be spoken to because "IF" they didn't see me "I" was flying too fast. 3) Face plant 50%, ass plant30%, narrowly miss others in the landing area umpteen % of the time. Never really hurt themselves more than a sprain , bruize or a very minor broken bone. They don't swoop so they won't hook in. Don't understand why someone would want to fly a high performance canopy because they shine during the skydive not the last part of their journey to terra firma. But they are lightly loaded so they are safe, right? Its been said that this is not our target danger demographic because their injuries are minor, rarely fatal, but I disagree. There is a very real danger here if one of these guys slams into you, you are dead. And there is rarely any thirst for more education on their part, They have arrived, they have nothing to benefit from a swooper class. Granted most of the deaths under canopy are LOW experienced jumpers but how many fit every other part of the description? The incident reports don't differentiate between my example above and the highly loaded low timer. ANY fatality under a canopy is too much, any canopy. It seems there is a lot of "sabre rattling" about half of our problem and utter blindness or even worse in the form of acceptance to the other 50%. If you feel you may represent the above in whole or in part...... Get help please! Glen

I'll stand up and admit that I'm not nearly as good at canopy control as I should be. Actually, I suck at canopy control. That's why I jump a 1.0 wingloaded Spectre and tend to land away from the main landing area. _________________________________________________ Didn't you just downsize from a 170 to 150 young lady? If you get hurt or worse its going to come down as a downsizing before you should have issue instead of just needs more training period type situation. Although I personaly have faith in you and know you will behave accordingly. You know as well as I do that all of our peers will slam our name without restraint if we hurt ourselves in a recent downsizing. Glen _________________________________________________ I've got 900+ jumps and wouldn't have a problem with USPA limiting the wingloading or type of canopy I can jump. ________________________________________________ I would rather they tend to more pressing issues for my moneys worth thats all. Glen

Jump runner your thread has been effectivly highjacked. Its now about jello, chickens, dremel tools and virgin child custody battles. Back when you were picking on people who really do skydive it wasn't too cool. Sharky is a very nice guy, many hundreds of jumps, ratings and experiences across several skydiving disciplines. Michele despite being her very own worst critic actually is a very good jumper. This is the assesment of anybody who has jumped with her that is in a position to quantify ability vs jump numbers. You could say she represents the more cautious of this .com community. I don't want to hear about surf nazi challenges. What I do want to hear about is when you actually stick your face in a nice tight strangers ass and so do all my dz.com pervert friends.

Michele, what flaver jello and does it require that one makes the Bill cosby face?

you're up! I like scented candles, the smell of nylon in the afternoon, adventurous women who like to share potato chips down by the swoop pond and porn. Ok who is next?

Sorry guys, but my nice little dremel tool has all those cool attachments, a nice LONG extending handle, and MAN the VARIETY of speed is incredible.... Yes that little dremel turns very...... very fast, I love mine. Its just no good for BIG work. Hey you are a naughty girl aren't you? Come on you can tell me I won't say a .....

Apparently so... http://www.fuckingmachines.com/menu.php. Definitely NSFW or the timid. Thank you kris I knew someone would come through for me without making me look like the only pervert on the boards. I do prefer the bosch over the sawzall for its more precise "variable speed" ...... For cutting wood of course..... you perverts!

Oh then you really aren't going to like sawzalls and linear power drives.