Thanatos340

Are you saying Skyride would just steal the USPA Certified logo anyway so there is not point in trying to institute an inspection program? I also pointed out that if the USPA protect its trademark (As ANY Organization Should) it would help SOME people be able to distinguish between a Real DZ vs a Virtual DZ. This is just one thought and really should have no bearing on whether a DZ inspection program is a good idea or not. I just saw it as one possible extra benefit. I think a Certification Program for DZ`s could work but it would be expensive and cumbersome to maintain. Far as IP rights, As owner of a small software company I think you find that I am generally in 100% agreement with you on those issues.

A website that used the "USPA Certified" seal (Image) without USPA consent would be VERY open to litigation. It is my understanding that Skyride had some BIG problems with NASCAR when they used the NASCAR Logo without NASCAR consent to help them sell race car rides. I believe those logos were VERY quickly removed.

And I dont think most of us would. Currently, Faith is all we have to go on. I think it would be great to have independent knowledgeable 3rd party verification that the minimum safety and maintenance standards have been met. Then we at least have a chance of making an informed decision. It would do me no good at all to look at a Maintenance Log. I would not know what I am looking at. Right now, We have no chance. Trust is all we have. I trust My DZO (And Plane owner.. Two separate people) too but knowing the standards have been met would be nice. And yes, even if the report said that Bucket of bolts will fall out of the sky tomorrow, many Jumpers would still get in.

If the "Certified USPA DZ" seal were properly placed.. It would only appear on REAL Dropzones. Virtual (Read Non-Existant) Dropzones could not possibly have this seal. Finally a way that people might actually have a chance to tell if they are looking at a DZ site or a Booking agency site designed to look like an actual DZ. A Look for the seal campaign by the USPA could have lots of benefits.

The same argument could be made for DZ`s. Their Customers (tandems and Students especially) would most likely take notice of which DZ`s were USPA Certified and which were not. At least with this program they would have a chance to make an informed decision. Again, I am not suggesting that DZ`s pay for this. I am suggesting that the General Membership bear the Lions share of the cost for this program. An Increase of $10 a Year in Membership could possibly do that.

I agree with most of what you are saying. That is why I posted to original questions, but to play devils advocate here.. Similar auditing and/or certifications are done in many industries. Look at how much companies will spend on ISO certification. I would envision a USPA Certification program something similar. A set of Standards that are established. If A DZ wants to advertise as USPA Certified DZ, They would have to meet these standards and have this verified. This would make a Difference to Tandems and students that did a little research (The REAL money for a DZ). It would also be a huge service to Regular Jumpers when they are looking at where to jump. Currently DZ`s only sign a Pledge to follow the guidelines but there is no verification that are doing so. And even when they are NOT following that Pledge, We still cant kick them out as we just discovered. In the end the Jumpers WILL be ones paying for this one way or another. Either through higher Jump ticket Prices or through Higher membership fees. An Increase of $10 per year for the general Membership would provide $350,000 per year to fund the program. Honestly I don’t know if that would be enough. I suspect this program would cost more than that which could be offset by DZ`s paying about what they pay now for Group Membership. DZ`s would either meet the requirements or they would not. I work most of my life in Industrial Manufacturing, In almost every Manufacturing plant I ever worked at we had at least one "certifying" organization that came in to do audits/inspections on a regular basis. The plants all voluntarily paid for these inspections/certifications. It was always a pain to deal with but the benefit was there. It forced us to maintain a standard and general helped our efficiently and profitability in the end. Would the General Membership be willing to pay for this? I wouldn’t mind an extra $10 to $20 a Year for such a program but I can already hear oothers that have a heart attack about ANYTHING that cost them money even if they are the ones that would benefit from it.

After some of things I have posted.. I may be hiding till my security detail (Laura, Kitty and Krisane) gets there.

I posted that excerpt not to say that those people should be thrown out too or that they did anything wrong.. The people named in suit are some of the most respected members of the BOD and rightfully so. I posted it to show that Jan was not the only one mentioned in that lawsuit. In psudo defense of the Lawyers.. How do you do due diligence when you do not even complete the discovery process? But wouldn’t it be easier for them to just convince everyone that Jan was the reason we had to settle and let her and only her take the fall?

Replacing the GM program with a DZ Inspection Program sounds like a great idea on the surface. Lots of question would need to be addressed such as: Who would pay for the inspections? What would be included in the inspections? Who would be doing the inspections? What additional Liabilities would the UPSA be opening themselves up to in "Inspecting/Certifying" DZ in the case of an accident at that DZ? This would be a HUGE undertaking by the USPA. Would the general membership be willing to pay additional Dues to help cover the administration costs of an Inspection program? Right now, Anyone cay "Buy" a USPA GM Seal and sign a Pledge. The idea that that Seal would have to be earned sounds great but the devil is in the details.

What does it cost you as a DZO to be a Group Member and what are the Benefits of being a Group Member?

When Will people be getting in? I am looking at flying in Thursday Night and wanted to know if anyone else was going to be around to get a Drink.

Kind of - it was an explosive fart - the lead singer in the band ate messican and had a really hairy ass. Did he scream Armageddon!!! as it happened?

There was NO FINAL Ruling. The USPA Settled after that. The Discovery Process was never even completed to the best of my knowladge.

This is just one example from the judges ruling (This is a small excerpt from the ruling, Everyone should read the entire ruling).. Defendant = USPA, Plaintiff = Skyride/ASC From Page 12 of the Ruling: Page 23 The judge states his opinions on the claims: Anyone still think that the only reason we had to settle were Jans Actions and that she alone should pay for the Loss? People that believe the only reason we had to settle was Jans Posting are mistaken. Those that worked hardest to do what was right should not be punished for those actions. Two wrongs dont make a right. The BOD knew of Jans previous work on the Skyride issue when they voted to kick out Skyride Owners. They all share responsibility for the action they took. Removing those websites would not have kept them from being used in this lawsuit. The Posts she made here could not be removed. I find it strange that people want to kick Jan out because she didnt take down a personal website that was providing a public service. Yet it was OK for member of the Executive Committee to continue being a Skyride Business associate and profit from skyride during this entire fiasco. Is Jan a Renegade and/or Maverick that stirs things up?? I think so. Does the USPA Need her?? ABSOLUTELY!! I do feel I owe Dr. Lee an Apology for what many perceive as a personal attack. That is not my intention. I am simply stating that I feel he made some very poor ethical decisions in a)Dealing with Skyride in the first place. b) Continuing to be a Skyride associate after the USPA kicked them out for ethical reasons and c) continuing to be a skyride associate and doing business with then while remaining on the board of the USPA while Skyride had pending litigation against the USPA. Everything I have heard is that he is a man of upstanding character, However it is also my opinion that he made a poor ethical decision in this matter. I have said my Peace on this and will remove myself from the discussion. I am not a lawyer. All Opinions expressed are just that. My Opinions.

We know the information was available. We also know that when the BOD voted to Kick them out, Lee had to know at that Point that he was dealing with an organization that the USPA felt was unethical. He chose to continue to do business with them even past them being kicked out and still even past them filing suit against the USPA. Public discussion of the Skyride issue had been going on for years by the time the USPA finally acted. To say that a sitting member of the USPA Executive Committee and DZO was not aware of what skyride was doing is very presumptuous. It is impossible to say what someone did or did not know.. But we can say with certainty that the information was readily available. Poor Judgment in my opinion all the way around. She is the only one they have made it known they are trying to get rid of. What would you call being a business associate of people that the BOD just kicked out for ethics problems? You think that might qualify as acting outside of the BOD`s expressed wishes?

while I think everyone should read all the documents completely, There is alot of material there. To get a good summery of the Complaint and Responses as well as the judges opinion, This document is a good overview.. It tells us what the Judge thought had merit and what did not. http://rapidshare.com/files/85967901/Ruling_on_Motion_to_Dismiss.pdf.html

I guess I have a little more perspective being from the Atlanta Area and seeing how Skyride came about. The Owners of ASC (before they ever started Skyride) were using websites for Dropzones that didnt exist all over the south east long before they took the program national by starting Skyride. They had proven themselves to unethical long before they started Skyride. This was very common knowledge in this area. You are correct I don’t know. But I do know that he did not either step down from the board and/or Quit dealing with a Company that had been kicked out for ethics problems. Resolution of the conflict would have been to a) Step Down from the Board and EC or to stop being a Business associate of Skyrides. Remaining on the board and working with Skyride at the same time is NOT resolving the conflict. We dont know that. Keep in mind that Skyride is a parasite organization that doesn’t bring new jumpers in, They intercept customers already looking for legitimate Dropzones, and then sell that business to other DZ`s. any sort of due diligence by the business owner should have alerted them to what this group was doing. In fact thanks to Jans Web-site, it was well documented and available for all to see. And maybe he pets puppies and kisses babies. None of this relevant. He may be the greatest guy in the world (And I have no reason to think otherwise other than he made questionable business decisions in doing business with Skyride to begin with) but I think he made a grave error in judgment when he failed to either step down form the executive committee and/or quit dealing with Skyride once this action was taken. People want to crucify Jan for what they say was an error in judgment on her part by not taking down her website. Why are the same people not making the same calls form someone that clearly PROFITED from Skyride unethical business practices before, during and after this action and yet still remain on the EC? There is NOTHING personal here. I dont know Jan, I dont know Lee. Take the emotion out and you will see that MANY people made huge mistakes, Not just one as the Executive Committee appears to want everyone to believe.

Funny, That is exactly what Cary Q says whenconfronted about his tactics. Look at the Airconditioned Packing area and the Planes you have he says. Does the end truly justify the means? The coach rating is one example of something that appeared to be Good for the Jumpers and Good for the DZO`s. In many places it is. In others it is just a way to extract more money from Students. A good idea that was poorly handled by some DZ`s. Look at the canopy separation BSR that was proposed. Something to protect both HP canopy pilots as well as standard Pattern Flyers. The cost of implementing this was reason that many DZO`s opposed this idea. In the end we get a watered down version. That is true. Especially in areas where there is more than one choice of where to jump but in many parts of the country, there is only one choice for a place to jump. Either jump there or Don’t jump is the choice. They do have a right to run their business however they please however if the wish to be part of the USPA they must follow certain guidelines. They can choose to not be part of the USPA if they wish. Unfortunately, Jumpers do not have that choice. If you want to skydive in the US, With very few exceptions.. You MUST be a member of the USPA. The Jumpers do NOT have a choice if they wish to skydive. Even some NON-USPA DZ`s require USPA Membership if you want to jump there. Having a sitting member of the Executive Committee in business with a group that that was kicked out of the Organization for Ethics Problems and that is suing the organization stinks of corruption no matter how you slice it. It also destroy credibility of the Organization.. How can we kick them out for ethics and then have an Executive Committee Member still taking money fro them? Either they are unethical or they are not. Weather The EC Member voted for the settlement or not, Why would a senior Official in the USPA keep doing business with a group that the USPA just threw out?

That single ruling is all we have to go on. The complaint is just that, a Complaint. The counts that the Judge felt there was enough to move forward and his reasoning behind allowing those counts to move forward are very important. Also just because the Judge allowed those counts to stand does not mean that they would have prevailed.

Now on that we are in 100% agreement.

I just emailed them to you. I highly encourage every one to read the Judges Ruling on the motion to dismiss (Which summarizes the other Documents fairly well) and why he let some counts stand. Read it all but pay close attention starting at the top of page 12 of the Judges Ruling. You might recognize some names other than Jans.

Does anyone have a file share space I can upload all the publicly available documents to? They are all too big attach. I especially want EVERYONE to read the Judges one and only ruling in this case. See how many BOD members and EC members that you can find mentioned in the judges ruling. Guess what.. There are several more than just Jan that did things much more questionable than leavening a pre-existing website up.

These things out of Order. Jan Had her Website up and making public anti-skyride posts Long before the BOD voted to remove Skyride and their owners from the organization. The BOD was fully aware of this when they voted to expel skyride and their owners. Also I believe that this statement is not true "~USPA's legal team, insurance company, and BOD voted that it was best to settle the complaint out of court." It is my understanding that this matter was handled exclusively by the EXECUTIVE Committee. The BOD NEVER had any say on the settlement. (Thus why I keep bringing up the conflict of interest).

This is why even Snow days can be fun at The Farm..

Crap.. We have been moved. I feel dirty just being in SC. YUCK!! maybe if we post enough Boobie Pics we can get this thread moved back.