maadmax

I'm not an atheist. Please, describe the parameters of your spiritual/philosophical viewpoint. ____________________________________

You missed my point. Chemistry is the wrong place to look if one wants to understand gravity. Likewise, if you want to understand why time doesn't go backwards, you should look at Thermodynamics, not General Relativity. "Entropy must increase and not dissipate"Quote I got your point, it is similar to extrapolating scientific discoveries on how we got here to explain why we are here. Your post also provided me with another insight. Hip hop is not half bad when produced with understandable lyrics and intelligent content. ______________________________________

--Here's where the trouble started. The only difference between perfect and not-so-perfect human would be the way they execute their free will. So how could you explain why perfect human Eva executed her free will in a very wrong way which is basically 100% incompatible with perfection? I have no idea why the neutralization of sin took the path it did. I just know that I am a sinner, and I needed help. --My point is that the moment God created Eva he knew EXACTLY what she will do, and he knew exactly that she will use her free will to eat this apple. And he did nothing to correct problems with his creation, even though it would be very easy. He did nothing. Very good question. Again one I have asked. I don't claim to have the answer. I have equated "eating the forbidden fruit" with making the free will choice to become like God and know how to create good and evil. From my study of the Bible it was not God's intention for us to use this knowledge, even though it was a choice. The spiritual quest before us now is to unlearn that knowledge. Someday I hope to know why.

Nor does chemistry explain gravity. My money is on the Higgs boson. It will de-mystify gravity. Along with the aid of atomic interferometry we will get it nailed down. ____________________________________

Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will. Quite literally it does. If some entity has a certain knowledge of what you will do, either you have no choice in the matter or his knowledge is faulty. If the time arrow can be reversed in an observers frame of reference, namely Gods. Then seeing the choice made by an individual from our future does not negate their free will in making that choice. ______________________________________

Thank you for the straight answer. So if the God can do anything, he should be able to: - Create perfect humans; Quote Yes. Which is what He did. He also created us with a free will. - Pardon the humanity for anything without going through Jesus thing Quote Good question. Honestly, I don't know the answer. But it seems to me from my study of physics that He likes everything to balance out. The consequences of evil acts must be neutralized. - the God already knows what decision this "free will" will make, and this is part of being omniscient.For example, if I'm in the room with two doors, do you believe that the omniscient God knows which door and when I open, exercising my free will?Quote I would think His knowing your choice before you made it would not be outside His abilities. What point are you trying to make?

- Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? Yes, and who knows if He can create a rock He cannot lift, maybe in some quantum or relative way that is possible . - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? Yes, but foreknowledge does not exclude free will. So far general relativity does not restrict the time arrow to just one direction, theoretically. ______________________________________

OK, well then what about all the people that find joy and comfort in a religion that is different than yours? Or all the atheists that tough it out and get thru their problems by sheer will power without an imaginary friend? Perhaps you are starting to get the picture but I doubt it. Here it is- it is your HOPE in God that you are getting joy from. The idea of an almighty brings you comfort. It could just as easily be a belief in the sketti monster, because his existance is just a verifiable as your God's.Quote To those who are spiritually complete, in need of nothing, I salute you. I have nothing to offer you, but wish instead, to learn from you if you will share any of your wisdom. To any who are like me, struggling to discern good from evil and do the right thing, I do have something to discuss. So please don't assume that my comments are meant for everyone that may read them. ______________________________________

That same 'evidence' can be produced by every religion, including all the ones that say all the other ones ore going to burn. Maybe, maybe not. I do not speak for them. I only speak about what I know. I would like nothing more than for everybody to be happy and get along, no matter how they have constructed their personal realities. But so far that wish has not been granted. ______________________________________

The irony is that you talk of humbleness then proclaim that everyone who believes differently than you is going to burn forever in a lake of fire. What could be less humble than saying that you are going to heaven while others burn in hell? And I know you will spit out some line like "Its nothing I did, its all Jesus" but thats BS. You, and every other Christian in the world, has yet to produce a verifiable, repeatable and directly observable shred of evidence to support your beliefs. Similarly, Kallend is exactly correct when he states that we have just as much evidence to believe in the flying spaghetti monster. And your definition of "faith" would be better called "being naive". Producing evidence is easy. Every broken life that has been redirected into a productive, optimistic, joyful life is evidence. Every time that information is shared with another with similar results, that is evidence. Multiply that by 2000 years and still going strong, that is evidence. Evidence, as well as wisdom, may not always fit into your preconceived notions. If you have similar evidence for the hopping sketi monster , go for it. _______________________________________

Your are right, it does get a bit tedious. Please change the tone. Lets talk about spiritual/psychological issues you find important, that help you make sense of the chaos and live a rich fulfilling life. ______________________________________

Imagine how surprised you'll be when Zeus sends you to Hell because you praised the wrong God. I have no idea what "praising the wrong God" or any god is all about. Why don't you explain it to me. I do know that knowledge of God allows me to know myself, and makes it possible to navigate through a confusing array of choices so that I reach my destination unscathed. _______________________________________

The "catch" is that you can't fully submit to something if you don't understand it. And by your own admission, you won't fully understand it until after you've submitted. But if you submit to it, not having fully understood it, then that would be a false submission, since your previousing understanding of what you were submitting to was false, since it hadn't revealed itself to you yet. Quote For me it was a process of taking one step at a time. The first step was "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that who ever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life". The next step was growing in faith, " Faith comes by hearing, and by hearing the Word of God" Then there was learning to live a transparent life by gaining control of sinful behaviors through prayerful confession and repentance. "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us of all unrighteousness." The next step was learning to quiet my mind by learning about the "peace that passes understanding." And the lessons keep on coming. _____________________________________

We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition.*** Very good post. Since the unknowable is, well, unknowable I don't worry much about it. I concern myself with that which I can grasp. Like all the major life issues : existence, purpose, good, evil, maximizing pleasure, minimizing pain etc. From there I seek a unifying theory that will make sense out of all of it. Luckily for me God has made the answers available, often through unique and paradoxical ways. ________________________________________

You know, in the Old Testament, God was full of Wroth and Vengeance. You did bad stuff, he rained brimstone down on your ungrateful ass or harrassed your people with 7 plagues. In the New Testament, its like he has turned over a new leaf, you don't hear some much of the nasty things he did to his people (because if you believe in it, everyone on earth is his creation) You know what happened around the time between the New Testament and the Old Testament? He got laid.*** It seem pretty obvious that your conception of God does not line up with the reality of God. There are no contradictions in the God that I know. _______________________________________

--So let's make it clear - did they have Jesus present on this AA meeting*** Yes, " If two or more are gathered in my name I will be there." _______________________________________ --How could they confirm that "his life has been transformed by a personal relationship with Jesus"*** You can talk to them like I did and listen to their testimonies. But if you do please be respectful. _______________________________________ -- not just by the fact that he understood the drinking problem - as he was present on AA meeting*** Well, if you ever talk to any of them or go to a meeting you will see that they were helpless to stop. _______________________________________ --Don't forget also that clinical studies showed that prayer had no effect on post-surgery patients - i.e. the Christian patients who prayed did not heal better or faster than non-Christians who didn't. How would you explain this*** I have done my own study on prayer and I can tell you it works just fine. It has been a major source of comfort and has provided answers to desperate situations. And it has not failed me yet!!!!! ______________________________________

Because there is lots that we don't understand does not mean there is a god. You use faulty logic to arrive at your conclusion*** Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _______________________________________

Irony - you say you aren't going to stick your head in the sand, while simultaneously doing exactly that over anything information that wasn't given to you via the Scripture*** OK, I will ask you once again to give me some new and relevant information, I am all ears. I consider anything and everything I hear.

That's EXACTLY what you said, though - "In stead of sticking my head in the sand, I am going to listen to Him."*** I will not deny it, I did say that, but you lost me on what ever point you are trying to make.

Ok - so you're sticking your head in the sand for everything BUT whatever information that believe "God communicated to us 2000 years ago*** Not at all. But I have settled on what I think is the most credible and true. If you have some information let it rip, I am all ears. _______________________________________

You assume that you have wager on the correct God, there are many to choose from.. you still have everythig to loose*** I certainly have considered the possibility of many deities, who knows. I do know and believe that when Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for me, that He is more than able to do it. ______________________________________

There is no evidence that there is anything for you to gain. With out any evidence you are wasting your time believing in a fairy tale*** If you would like a little review on cosmology and quantum theory read SHAARKs post again. Evidence exists that there is a lot of stuff out there we don't understand. Which is a fact. I believe that God communicated information to us 2000 years ago so we could make the most of life in this dimension and in the dimensions to come. In stead of sticking my head in the sand, I am going to listen to Him. My bet is that what ever is out there, will be beyond our wildest imagination. ______________________________________

That's pretty much what Pascal said*** OK, but what would Pascal say about Bill's position? Or should we consult PT Barnum?

As it is the quarks in you body and energy that powers your mind has been rambling around this latest phase of creation for 13.75 billion years with no loss of spin, charge or mass. Attributing this to blind chance is short sighted to say the least. --Agreed. It is wiser to attribute it to physics. Bill, Does physics have a much better explanation?*** NOPE, NADDA, ZILCH, ZERO, NONE! Description is not an explanation. ______________________________________ --maadmax, Forgive my ignorance, but I thought Christians believed something along the lines of "though shall not judge" as in, only God can judge. Is that not the case? Please rephrase your question. Either, I am not sure I understand what you are asking, or you are just establishing background information to preface your next question. As far as your statement you are 100% correct, no ignorance detected.

Ah, Pascal's Wager! An excellent compromise overall*** Not much of a wager for me. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Of course in your case , you have nothing to gain, and everything to loose. _______________________________________