maadmax

All that you have done so far is assert that you think religion is neccessary. If you can come up with any explanation why, then I'll construct an argument against it. Until then I'll just keep calling bullshit.*** The classic allegorical novel "Lord of the Flies" explains the need very well. Without an understanding of a higher order we revert to "survival of the fittest". Spiritual pursuit is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. ______________________________________

Essentially, you're asking atheists to disprove a negative, which is a logical fallacy. *** No, not really. What I am asking is what other extenuating feelings, preconceived notions, assumptions, prejudices, etc that go into your unsupportable theorem that God is a myth. You all have repeatedly claimed that your superior understanding of science is all you need. This hypothesis is unsupportable with our current level of scientific discovery. There has to be more that goes into you conclusion that God never was and never will be. ___________________________________-

Atheists, I find your oratorical zeal to dominate and conquer, impressive. But your inability to perceive God has got to be something a lot more than the simple dismissal you propose based on incomplete science. Our current level of scientific understanding just cannot prove your hypothesis. If anything, to me, it points to the opposite conclusion. Many of the wisdom narratives of the past teach that when man replaces the Wisdom of God with that of his own, disaster follows. _______________________________________________

When you look at an event and say "Wow, how unlikely was that given the age and size of the universe!" you completely miss the point that all you ever see are the events that happened, and what you never see are the events that didn't. Something had to happen, and you see what did.*** Or, you could be looking at the conclusions of someone who already has an agenda. And either doesn't know or is ignoring the probability of a monumentally complex and perfectly executed cosmos forming instead of universal conflagration . __________________________________

How did you observe over those years? Which answers to your questions did you ever receive? I asked why and never got any reply; I sought, I never found. I knocked but no one called God opened. God did not answer/help/do anything for me. My family, husband, kids, friends, were there for me (more or less, like usual in life). That's all. They all have names but, no one's called God. Tell me to ask whom, to seek where and to find what; to knock at which door and who, perhaps, will open it for me? I'll get back to you upon return and report. *** You have summed up the dilemma of the spiritual life. The entry point for me was faith in God, His Word, and the work of Jesus Christ in resolving the barrier between God and man. I found the mechanics for living a vibrant fulfilled spiritual life explained in the Bible. The answer to the rest of your questions will take more time than is allowed here in this forum. Don't give up searching, it is worth the effort. _________________________

... Yes, Your spirit was created with a free will to commune with God. How would that work? Until today, such communication was a bit too unidirectional - I'm waiting for answers since I was a kid - or is that just a waiting loop I'm in?? *** Good question . As a point of first contact, most seekers and lovers of God find Him by the way He answers the longings of the spirit. I have observed over the years that God communicates in very unique and personal ways. One thing I believe and have experienced is summed up well in this phrase. " Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you." _____________________________________

If God was real, I'd find out after I died. Why would he care at all if I think he exists while I'm alive? Am I hurting him in some way?*** Yes, Your spirit was created with a free will to commune with God. _______________________________

As are yours, when it comes to the issues that really matter. As are yours, when it comes to the issues that really matter.....to you. The matters you speak of have no meaning to us 'atheists'. We believe in provable scientific processes; a repeatable and objective look at life and the universe. Not 'magic'. If reality was that simplistic it would sure make this discussion a lot easier. Science has shown us alot, but is has by no means even scratched the surface of the human spirit. The only reason the matters I speak of have no meaning to atheists like you is because you have blinded yourself. Recognition of the spiritual reality we find our selves in is accessible only through humility, expressed by faith in God. It is constructing a reality based on the parameters dictated in Gods Word, and not that of you own imagination. __________________________________________

If you rely on semantic twists to make your point, you really don't have one. I am not sure what semantic twist you are talking about, but coming from the master, I think I will take that as a compliment. 0h, and I really have a point. _________________________________________

--this is a strawman argument often brought out by christians. No one is claiming that your energy is 'snuffed out'. It only changes forms. O really, and as you all love to say, " I suppose you have evidence to back that up?" And if what you say is true, liquid water and frozen water is still water. Consciousness according to your analogy will still be consciousness. _____________________

We don't have to prove negatives. Your beliefs are totally devoid of all objective, testable evidence. As are yours, when it comes to the issues that really matter. _________________________________

I like to think there is something after I am old and gone. I just hope I live the right life to get a good parking place. I usually dont post anything in the religion threads because I am not very in tuned to the church. So does this make me an atheist or what? I would say, no, you are not an atheist. Remain open and honest and God will show you the way. I personally don't put much stock in the religious definitions of God. _______________________________

If you want SILLY, I contend that believing in and worshipping an invisible supernatural being without a shred of supporting evidence trumps everything else. For me, the evidence, God exists, is everywhere. There is so much "empirical evidence" yet to be collected, that it is nothing short of insane to make broad sweeping conclusions about absolute reality based on what little we currently know. You know matter and energy can change but never be destroyed. How can you be so certain that the energy that comprises our consciousness will just be snuffed out at our death. You have no evidence for that. ___________________________________________

Pretty silly bit of rhetoric.

QuoteTo make a valid post (for a change), as a person, this angers me a bit: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/rep-monique-dav.html She happened to target Atheism, but had she attacked anyone's personal beliefs so irrationally, I'd still put the same frowny face here ---> Debating beliefs is okay, but she clearly demonstrated the intolerance that does exist amongst people who have the ability and desire to change laws based upon it. So, now I am an Angry Atheist! Grrrrr! *** If it makes you feel any better, any rational thinking person would find the comments of Ms Davis lacking in intelligent content. But it certainly is not worth wasting the energy and peace of mind required to become angry. There is no shortage of ignorant people in the world. Don't worry about them, if you have the energy to spend, try educating them. ___________________________________

Restating your case doesn't make it any more valid, your examples are still self contradictory. The Nazis thought absolute truth and purpose existed. Most religious leaders think absolute truth exists. How is that any better than thinking the universe is pointless?*** OK, I get the message. Whether you actually can or can not understand what I am saying will remain a mystery. The point is not that difficult to understand for some. Since you disagree with the premise, not understanding it certainly squelches any further discussion. ___________________________________

That depends entirely on the person. And again, you've used completely contradictory examples. A conception of god wasn't absent from Hitler's reality. A conception of god isn't absent from the reality of most religious leaders, delusional or otherwise. All the examples you have posted so far simply confirm the idea that morality is not based on whether you believe god exists or whether you believe that the universe is aimless and pointless. This destroys your earlier assertion that believing in a pointless universe would lead to rampant amorality.*** My comments are in reference to the belief that absolute truths exists, both physical and spiritual . And that to truly fulfill our destiny, we must discover and live by these truths. We have two choices: either to seeks and accept these truths with humility, or in arrogance deny absolute truth exist and set off creating our own. I believe that it takes a personal relationship with God to learn and incorporate true spiritual wisdom into ones life. And of course, we have the scientific method for the physical truths. ______________________________________

So what you're saying is, whether you believe in god or not, and by extension or whether god even exists or not has abaolutely no bearing on whether a person can be moral. So, what were you arguing about again? No argument here. This is an attempt at discussion. My point is quite simple actually. A person who elevates their status equal to God, also elevates their authority to make decisions regarding how reality is constructed. Examples being: hitler, who almost succeeded in constructing an extreme type of fascist reality, or a delusional religious leader who speaks for God and compels his flock to adhere to his view of Gods will on earth. Both are evil. I realize consensus is not a possibility in this discussion, but hopefully you will come up with something more than an amateurish attack. When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

Would you consider Christ to have been such an individual? What I think about Christ has been summed up very eloquently elsewhere . "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and Word was God. ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." ____________________________________

"Another point entirely" The twists and turns of this thread are hard to follow. My comment was in response to the depravity of man when he has constructed a self deified reality. Self deification is the default position one finds themself when they either rewrite what God has said or take God out of the picture entirely and create reality as they see fit. _____________________________________

QuoteIt is a strange one isn't it. He thinks that believing the universe is pointless and that we're here for no reason leads to evil behaviour, and to prove it references the actions of a man and people who believed that they were placed on the earth for one very specific reason. Decipher that one.*** Good job! You are a winner! You got my point! A self deified individual , who dictates reality for God or who dictates reality in the absence of God is a dangerous animal. He can selfrighteously exercise what ever brand of evil he can come up with, either in the name of God, or because God does not exist. "The heart of man is desperately wicked, who can know it?" ______________________________________

Morality is a different issue. We may well decide that those behaviors are not ones we wish to emulate, and thus decide to discourage/punish those people. That's a societal decision, not the physical result of the processes of natural selection or genetic inheritance at the individual level (although we can certainly _force_ one to influence the other if we wish.) I am glad that you can see the distinction. Welcome to the epic struggle between Good and Evil. _____________________________________

Now, I’m thoroughly confused. The reference to 60 yo & German implies that you are invoking reference to Hitler. (That's not usually a good signal in a discussion.) Or are you meaning to use Adolf Hitler & the Nazi party as an illustrative example of: "People [who] can take something good and corrupt it, using it to justify their own brand of evil" ? *** This one. This is an example of how we have not evolved into a higher life form. We still need a moral framework for civilization to work, and left to our own devices we will screw it up. And yes there have been plenty of very evil groups that have hidden behind a Christian banner. In the Bible when Jesus addressed these type of people He said " Depart from Me, for I know you not." They have no connection to the true Christian message. ______________________________________

I would buy that, but I still have a healthy respect for the amount of mischief a self deified individual or group of them can cause. I don't think we will ever be free of our species genocidal behaviors. Just imagine what would happen if a major metropolitan area had its food, water and power supply cut off for any period of time. It would take no time for us to revert to our primitive natures. ___________________________________________

Clarification: Would you clarify this a bit – do you mean to imply the Christians & other monotheistic faiths are not practicing eugenics or outright mass murder of those they deem “inferior” because of the moral authority derived from monotheism? /Marg I am sorry Marg if all ,so called, Christian folk look the same to you. They really aren't. People can take something good and corrupt it, using it to justify their own brand of evil. The Bible says those who have committed such an egregious sin are worse than those who have done it out of ignorance. _______________________________________