maadmax

These so called chains that you “free” yourself from are merely self imposed by your faith in the first place!!!!!!!!! The term “Sin” when used in a religious context describes any lack of conformity to the will of God, now for some one who does not believe in god/god (because there isn’t single shred of evidence) this concept is rather meaningless, and we believe human behaviour is not regulated by "commandments" given from above, but by moral standards derived from natural sources. ____________________________________________ Goodness you are a hard case. It appears you have a good understanding of what sin is. Since God sets the rules for the reality we exist in, His morality is law. Since we are created in His image we can also make godlike decisions and create our own realities. We can write Him out of the picture and grant ourselves all the rights and privileges our little hearts desire, contrary to what God has designed for us. I can promise you one thing though, there is no quicker road to self destructive thoughts and behavior. The proof for you will be in watching your life unfold if you maintain that belief. Sin, which is all decisions made outside of Gods Will, EXISTS! whether or not you believe .

Oh now you're just making stuff up. Plenty of people have no use for faith. I'm one of them. ____________________________________________ I disagree, any time you make conclusions without the benefit of complete information you have to use faith or a belief to bridge the gaps of the unknown. We may be having a semantical difference here, which is fine. You define the term and I will use it. But what ever you call it , it still exists. For example, you "believe" that God doesn't exist. You can not prove God doesn't exist, but somehow you know. You have made that concept part of your reality. I call that faith, what would you like to call it.

Free from what exactly? _____________________________________ The chains of sin and death and all of the temporal and eternal consequences. Freedom from a life of regret. Free to wake up every morning new and clean, knowing the penalty of my sins has been commuted. Free to commune with God. Is that enough or would you like more examples.

With 5 senses and a brain you can construct a model of reality that will be reasonably accurate. The problem arises when your senses and your brain tell you something that doesn't fit with your faith. Faith is like fitting your brain with a ball and chain. Every model of reality you construct is constrained by your faith and therefore based on something for which there is no evidence. ___________________________________________ In some cases your observation is correct. I have also observed that. Every person living utilizes faith in their reality constructs. Hopefully the true seeker of God will remain open to new faith lessons and not get bogged down in human ignorance. I constantly examine my faith for inaccuracies. The Bible also says God tests a person's faith so that it hopefully will become free of defects. I have personally benefited from Gods testing many times in my life.

It seems to me as if you're saying "OK, I know creationists are liars, but they're on my side so it's ok." Nice sense of honesty there. ___________________________________________ Not exactly, I feel that in the big scheme of things some facts are more important than others. How we got here is mildly interesting. Why we are here is by far much more important. Some people could be totally wrong on how we got here. But if they are correct on why we are here, that in my opinion is what really matters.

[ ] "What are you talking about?" "Why did you ciriticise Kallend when he labelled creationist arguments as 'bogus'?" ____________________________________________ I personally believe God created all things, and has made provisions for His creation to continue. I don't think any of us have all of the details on how exactly God started everything. I think the earth is older than 6000 years more like 4.5 billion years. But as far as the "bogus" award I would have to give it to Kallen, "only a fool says in his heart there is no God" That is the biggest lie of all. ____________________________________________ "Do you think that lies are OK if they lead someone to have greater faith?" Lies are never OK, false faith should be avoided at all costs. But you cherish your false faith, should I disallow that? Don't you think people should be allowed to work out their own faith to the best of their ability? Our 5 senses, a brain to crunch the data, and faith is all we have to construct our realities.

What complete rubbish. Faith leads to 5 year old children being labelled with a belief they don't understand that drags them into violent disputes they have no reason to be part of. Faith allows people to carry out god's will no matter how gruesome it is. _______________________________________ This response is an aspect of the Bible that I have found amazing. If you read the Bible with a mind full of anger, hate, & "rubbish" that is exactly what you will find. And you will swear that the Bible backs you up. You will commit unspeakable violence in the name of God. If you study the Bible in the spirit of its true intent you will see a different message. As in this passage. I see it saying that the accumulated wrath from the sins of the world would be less if the violent sinful act described above was commited, as opposed to the wrath accumulated form the sin of disillusioning one trying to find God.

Are you defending creationists? Do you think faith in God needs to be encouraged by lieing about science? ___________________________________________ I am supporting the right to develop ones faith in a nurturing environment. Positive exchanges that we sometimes have on this thread are great. " As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another". The faith journey may take many dead ends, but the important thing is the journey, not just quitting in disbelief.

No, faith is not wisdom. Faith is like heroin: dangerous and stupid . ____________________________________________ In a lot of situations you are 100% CORRECT! Misguided faith is a dangerous thing. A true seeker of God who applies the Truths of the Bible will eventually come to place of Divinely Guided Wisdom that is the complete opposite of what you have described above. One thing is becoming clear about you guys, you all seem to have a very tragic misunderstanding about true Christian Spiritual Teachings. I could look at quack scienctists the same way, but that would be a great loss for me to do so.

Then why on earth did you write a hostile reply to a post about bogus creationist arguments? ______________________________________ I would bet if the truth be known none of us has it entirely correct. Faith in God is a precious thing and should be nourished and encouraged. Those without faith obviously see no use for it, much to their loss. For wisdom to grow over time, faith is a vital part. If you crush faith in those seeking the Truth, you stunt their development. Not that you believe in Him, but God said it would be better for you if a millstone was fastened around your neck and you were thrown in a river.

Here's another one from the same book. After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it? -- Richard Dawkins That is a really nice quote! I think it is even more exciting when combined with I Corinthians 13:12 " For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face with God, now I know in part, but then I shall know fully, just as I also have been fully known."

And religion and believing in God has done that??? No, I think religion has turned people toward the viewpoint you embrace, with good reason I might add. Believing the Truth of God HAS SET THEM FREE!!!

Creationist arguments are wrong (more often than not deliberate lies) and lead to ignorance, science offers us the path towards knowledge. I for one would rather have knowledge than live in ignorance, and I refuse to believe that I need to sacrifice knowledge in order to gain those 'enlightened' qualities that you speak of. If I am to have those qualities they will come from me, not some guy on a pulpit or tribal book of mysticisms. Question to you; do you think that if you accepted evolution you would lose your 'spirituality' or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it? _______________________________________________ Hi Jakee, you make some mighty big assumptions, but I am afraid very few of them apply to me. I see evolution as the creative force God uses to maintain His creation. Pretty neat don't you think? And yes I am all for knowledge, and DOWN with ignorance!!! .

Yeah, well, the complexity argument is bogus, the information coding argument is bogus, the micro/macro argument is bogus. Pretty much every argument they use is designed to appeal to the ignorant. ________________________________________________ OK Kallend I'll bite. What argument do you have that is so enlightened? What qualities and values with I acquire if I subscribe to your view of reality? Will I love my fellow man more? Will my inner peace increase? Will anger and hate disappear? Will greed and self-centredness turn into generosity? Will cynicism turn into optimism ? .

[ what science is supposed to be in the NT? Genesis has not been debunked. It's just that the Bible is not a science text book. Plenty of Christians have no problem with scientific descriptions of how life formed. It does not touch their belief that God is responsible for creating all life. not all Christians are fundies. _____________________________________ Amen Brother!!!!!!

How do you know this? Were you sitting having a beer with the authors? how do you KNOW it wasnt intended literally? Im sure the early readers sure thought it was. Why has this view changed over time? I think its changed over time to plaster over the cracks that keep appearing in the bible.. ____________________________________________ See, you last sentence """"PROVES""" my point.

_____________________________________________ Sorry Phil, but I did answer you question. Maybe things aren't as simple as you would like them to be.

. _________________________________________ As you know the meaning of the Bible is for each individual to determine for themselves. The benefit of the Bible only comes when the knowledge contained in it is understood and mixed with faith, producing wisdom. Which only has value to the person who possesses it. I certainly have noticed that different people derive different meanings form the same passages. By continuous study and prayer I do the best I can to discern God's intent. I am always gathering information on everything and am ready to change my views as needed to make the most sense out of the chaos.

Quote"I agree with you if you are talking about religions. I am referring to discovering the spiritual side of our nature and the relationship with God that follows. " Sorry i really dont understand what this means, perhaps you could elaborate.[/reply _______________________________________________ Religion is a set of man made rules and activities that are suppose to get the adherents noticed and rewarded by God. Spiritual wisdom on the other hand teaches us how to keep our self deification impulses in check, hopefully preventing us from constructing a myopic, self centered view of reality. Spiritual Wisdom produces characteristics such as :Humility , Hope, Peace, Love, & Faith. The Bible is a reservoir of Spiritual Wisdom. Sadly to say there are many examples where people have taken the Bible and turned it into a religion. It was not meant for that purpose.

No a= without , theism =belief in god. Atheism = without belief in god. Atheists individually may have beliefs, but atheism is not a belief system. One cannot prove something does not exist. One cant prove god does not exist, but one cant prove invisble unicorns do not exist. That doesnt mean their existene or non existence should be teated as equal propositions. As far as betting on god goes , I dont think throwing a way a large proprtion of my life on something with no evidence is a wise bet. Imagine there is a god and he punishes those that believe in the wrong god , rewards those that believe in him and is neutral on those that dont believe at all. In that scenario its wise to not believe in any god becuase the chances of you picking the correct god out of the myriad of gods that people believe in is small. of ocurse one can dream up a scenario where one imagines a high pay off and a high punishment for getting the bet wrong and so it might seem like the bet is wise. But if the scenario is not grounded in reality its a waste of time. __________________________________________ I agree with you if you are talking about religions. I am referring to discovering the spiritual side of our nature and the relationship with God that follows.

QuoteWhat I wonder most about is, how christians explain that according to the bible the earth is just about 7000 years old. I mean we have carbon dating (yes I know the hat example but nobody can say it is always wrong) we can see stars from the earth which are billions of light years away (meaning the light was already on the way a billion years ago and reaches us now) and a lot of other things. How can you still belive in the bible when there are so many things which are just obviously wrong? _____________________________________ Don't let a few confused Christians distract you from the true issue which is Spiritual Self Awareness and a relationship with God. We will have mistaken religious people with us always, they are not the issue. Genesis did get some amazing things right but there are some confusing passages as well.

Atheists, thanks for those who responded. Your answers have given me a little insight into your rationalizations. It appears we do have something in common. We both have a belief system, neither of which can be proven or disproven by our current state of technology, and we use the same information to support our contradictory views. Of course if you are right you will never get the chance to say I told you so. If you look at hard cold logic it is a dumb choice to bet on.

QuoteWould you like that in five sentences or less _______________________________________________ Come on Beowulf cut loose. You feel you know what doesn't exist. What does exist?

Phil or any of you other atheists, I don't know if you will indulge me or not but I am curious what makes the realities you have constructed for yourselves tick. How do you discern right from wrong, good from evil ( if they exist for you)? How do you determine where your rights end and another persons begins? Why should anyone continue living? Does an individuals existence mean anything? How did this complex universe come into being with its infinitely small tolerances for time, space, particle spin, charge, mass, strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity, electromagnetic energies, and yet to be identified force carriers and mass particles etc that statistically defies a chance beginning. Does might make right or is there a higher moral determinant? Are there any absolutes either good or bad? I guess that is enough for starters.

but that also illustrates it's inherent flaw... you cant claim/use the bible as the 'word of God' when it is so corrupted by the desires of Man. which isnt a problem except for the fundamentalist who continually claim "THIS WAY ONLY!!! and no other is correct or meaningful . _______________________________________________ I agree the Bible is at times confusing and for a number of reasons can appear to be wrong. Such as translation or copying errors, editing changes by unqualified scribes, cultural & language differences, along with our own biased ignorance. As a student of the Bible I don't study it to find the apparent mistakes. I have to many other more interesting things to do with my limited time. I do spend a great deal of time studying it for what is has to offer. Why the Bible is written the way it is, I have no idea. One thing I do know is that the Wisdom resulting from the apparent chaos is mind bending and I am thankful to God for it, no matter how He choses to make it known.