maadmax

Time exists within the universe, not the other way around. The universe is eternal.*** For lack of silly arguments I will assume you define "Universe" like every one else. When the fabric of space/time is condensed by increased gravity, like at an event horizon time slows significantly. If the theory of General Relativity is correct when space is infinitely condensed as in the pre big bang era, time does not exist. Stating that mindless forces continuously reingnite the universal creative process in a cyclic fashion producing what we see today, takes pure unfounded faith of the highest order. ___________________________________ ___________________________________

Quote>No Christian is going to say that salvation is found elsewhere. "But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror . . ." (1 Cor 13) We are still children in our understanding, and see the truth only poorly. I think the primary difference between you and I is that I don't think I have perfect understanding; indeed, no one does. Thus I cannot say that there is only one road to salvation (or, indeed, only one salvation.*** Dang! You were dead on, until you got to that last bit. The Bible can be very clear about some of the information that is presented. The "narrow path" of salvation happens to be one of the topics it clearly defines. Sorry for however politically incorrect that may sound. Look at the laws of physics, individual interpretation is not part of any of them. They are what they are. Why should spiritual Truth be any different? They both come from the same source. ______________________________________

However, it would be interesting to hear the rest of your beliefs . That's not something I'm inclined to share on an internet forum. I'm not seeking approval, validation, or to recruit other people to believe as I do. My beliefs are between me and, for lack of a better word, God***, Finally, this has to one of your better posts. As a lover and seeker of Truth & God, I am deeply interested in any insights in that area. One who has a lamp does not hide it under a basket. If you have any wisdom on that subject please share it. ________________________________________

Well, for starters the Tacitus reference is very clearly hearsay, as it includes the same ERROR as Josephus. It also is about the persecution of Christians by Nero, not about Jesus per se. If that's the best you've got...*** These references are not for me, they are for you. And it is no surprise that nothing will be acceptable to you. Your mind is made up. The point being that Christians existed shortly after the reported death of Jesus. Many of these persecuted people Josephus describes were eye witnesses as the Bible describes. I am happy with that. My evidence is based on life changing results. If something has all kinds of references like zeus, athena, and all of the other meaningless names you like to throw around but has no power to change my life, I really don't put a whole lot of credence into any of their mythology, which I have studied by the way. Take your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help. ______________________________________

I have viewed that psychological phenomenon myself, and find the degree of blind faith people put into things, amazing. And yes, I can feel all of those atheistic fingers pointing at me. But all I can tell you is the dynamic and life changing power of the Christian Way of Life and the Word of God set forth in the Bible speaks for itself to those of us who have heard His calling. It is not a blind faith, it is a rush of power, purpose and destiny. The proof of a faith is in what it produces, and can be verified by repeatable results in the lives of others. Not by data printouts from some lab experiment In plain language, you don't have anything in support of your claims .*** You can use fancy language, I don't care. My life and the benefits I have enjoyed from my relationship with God is more than enough evidence for me. Sorry about it not meeting your requirements. ________________________________________

Non-Christian sources mentioning Jesus: Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9. So there's a lot of hearsay, but still no evidence. The existence of other historical figures have been established on less evidence. The real evidence for the existence of Christ is when you open the door of your mind and let Him in. ______________________________________

I have viewed that psychological phenomenon myself, and find the degree of blind faith people put into things, amazing. And yes, I can feel all of those atheistic fingers pointing at me. But all I can tell you is the dynamic and life changing power of the Christian Way of Life and the Word of God set forth in the Bible speaks for itself to those of us who have heard His calling. It is not a blind faith, it is a rush of power, purpose and destiny. The proof of a faith is in what it produces, and can be verified by repeatable results in the lives of others. Not by data printouts from some lab experiment. _____________________________________

QuoteAre you trying to say that no one else wrote about Jesus's resurection because they were afraid to tell the story? That really doesn't help the Bible's credibility*** Who knows if anything else written about the events surrounding the Christian faith has survived. The moslems trashed an entire library at Constantinople when they over ran the city. The historian Josephus Flavius(ce37-100) acknowledges the existence of Jesus in his historical account of that time. I imagine there could be a whole encyclopedia and you would still find fault with it. Those of us who understand what the Bible is saying have plenty of information to work with. Those of us who heed Gods call, believe that God revealed his Truth through the writing of a chosen few. Most of these works found their way into our modern Bible. Translations, recopying and additions to the original writings have introduced minor errors. Those of us who search the Bible for its Truth have no problem in discerning what is Truth from what is not. What I can't figure out is why you atheists care so much, that you spend so much time trying to show us the error of our ways. Life is short, we will all find out who was right soon enough. What exactly is it that you have to offer again, that is so wonderful. _______________________________________

-- What do you mean by "purpose"? --What do you mean by "expression"? --What is the purpose of Hemorrhagic fever filoviruses, like Ebola & Marburg? --By "purpose" do you mean shift down a proton gradient to a more favorable energy state? Or more favorable pH? Or by "purpose" do you mean hydrophobicity, i.e., the spontaneous process that drives liposomes (like cell walls) to form in water? O come on Marg you are just throwing up smoke screen impediments to discussion. It is obvious "purpose" is about the reason we are here, not some submicroscopic or microscopic minutia. _______________________________________ --When I look at cells -- from genetic though protein through structural levels -- there's lots of evidence for evolution and zero repeatable, public evidence of intentional design. When I look at the same information, it screams Intelligent Design to me. So much for personal opinions. ____________________________________ --Evidence of evolution includes similarities & differences in DNA sequences across species, examples of gene regulation (including at least one in humans) by DNA derived from an endogenous retrovirus (ERV), mutation rates, protein structures, and larger cellular structures (such as mitochondria). Pretty cool design wouldn't you say? If we can see God, we see Him in everything around us. If we have blinded ourselves to the presence of God we are blind to everything He has done. _______________________________________

QuoteMax, A little joy is as much as we can ask for I think, and I am glad your beliefs bring you that, as do mine for me in their own way. I would never try to "prove" to anyone that God doesn't exist (as many posters have noted you can't prove a negative), and I wouldn't wish to try to deprive anyone of a source of comfort and meaning. You did ask, though, what leads one to disbelieve, and so I did provide some (not quite all) of my reasons.*** You certainly have put in a lot of time contemplating the big issues. I am impressed with the scope of your effort and hope that you continue searching. The Bible says that nobody can know the Mind of God and that His Wisdom is foolishness to us. I agree with you, in that I wish He had arranged things a little differently. But once I get passed that wishful thinking I find there is plenty He has done to more than make up for what He has left hidden for now. _______________________________________

That's even harder to answer . . . I guess through life experiences, learning from many different sources. What feels good vs. what feels bad. I certainly don't have it all figured out though. I think I learn a little bit every day, and hopefully I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

Goodness Don, that is a lot of stuff. I can't say that I fault you on anything you said. The little I think I know about God pales in comparison to what I don't know. The little I do know is that His Word, the Bible, picked me up out of a chaotic, confusing, angry world I had created for myself and set me free. For that I am joyously thankful. ____________________________________

Strength, love, beauty, kindness, forgiveness . . . I guess anything that draws my attention to the good things about being alive. My friends and family are very important to me, and they have helped me through some tough times (and hopefully I have helped some of them too). I also find nature/being outdoors to be therapeutic. But I think that inner strength is what helps me the most through tough times. And when I am having a hard time finding it, the other things I have mentioned are what help me to find it. Hmm, that's a hard question to answer, but hopefully I am making a little bit of sense. *** Good Answer! I also rely on those values for guidance. How did you learn to incorporate them into your life? Apart from studying the Bible, prayer and meditation, I never would have figured out how important they were, or how to use them. _____________________________________

Well, I have a little bit of trouble understanding how/why anyone believes in a god. But I find it interesting to hear what others believe, and I don't have any real interest in trying to convince others that god does not exist. Most of my friends and family do believe in god, and I find that I tend to keep quiet about the subject around most of them. And other than feeling like I shouldn't talk about it, it doesn't bother me that they have different beliefs. I know that some of them rely heavily on their belief in god to help them through their lives, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them since I don't exactly have a better alternative to offer *** Thank you for your honesty. What values do you use to help you through tough times? ______________________________________

[ I didn't become disillusioned with religion; I just never believed in god. And the people at my church were good people, so I never had a problem with them; I just had different beliefs than they had.*** OK. Your view point gives me something to think about. Just out of curiosity, what do you think about people who believe in God? _____________________________________

I realised I was an atheist long before I even knew what science was. Why? Because religion has always had the distinct and unshakable odour of bullshit Ditto. I can't remember ever believing in god. I went to church all the time when I was a kid, Sunday school and all of that, but the stories just never had any ring of truth to them. I liked church because of the people there, but the god part just seemed to be some sort of outdated tradition, some sort of mythology that was being held on to for whatever reason. When I was really young, I actually thought that everyone was just pretending to believe in god. As I got older, I started realizing that people really did believe in it, and I seemed to be the only one who didn't. I can remember finally coming across the word "atheist" in the dictionary, and feeling some sort of comfort in realizing that I must not be the only person in the world who didn't believe in god. So, to maadmax: I didn't really choose atheism. I just simply don't believe that any sort of god exists, and I cannot force myself to believe. I've certainly been open to it, and I've learned about the various religions, but so far that has only helped to confirm my disbelief .*** Very interesting. I have to admit that when I read your response I couldn't help feeling a stab of pain. It sounds like my childhood was similar to yours. I also became disillusioned with religion and the hypocrisy of those who practiced it. I guess the only difference was that deep down I felt there had to be something genuine that all these people were just to lazy to find. _______________________________________

I like the way you think, brother.

Why the forced dichotomy, e.g., the part of your post I referenced above? VR/Marg*** Most of the atheists I have encountered in this forum are very esteemed scientists. They have repeatedly used their scientific background to support their theory that God does not exist. My point is science is amazing but it is to imperfect to support this claim. I would be very interested in hearing why a nonscientist would choose atheism.

QuoteThis ***" If science can't prove it, IT DOES NOT NOR EVER WILL EXIST". is bullshit. If there is evidence of any deity at all. Then I will consider the possibility of the existence of that particular deity. You pulled that statement out of your ass. At this point there is no evidence of god so my only conclusion is that god is a fantasy.*** I am afraid you are not providing any new information, what else would you say as a devotee of atheism? _______________________________________

-- First, scientific truth is established by observation and repeatable experimentation, not God. Nor does it require faith. That's what is so great about science. There's no faith required. God's Word is perfect, always true and incapable of corruption. Religion is man's attempt to improve on God's perfect Word. He creates these improvements in a state of self deified arrogance. ______________________________________ --If spiritual truth is vital to survival, how are non-spiritual atheists able to survive? Probably none that you would like. Spiritual truth is the building material we construct our realities out of. If well use defective spiritual values we construct a dysfunctional reality and suffer the consequences here and now, if we use Divinely inspired Truth we construct a reality that is characterized by a Peace that surpasses understanding, contentment, freedom. My spiritual experiment ,has been the testing of personal faith and knowledge to produced a inner reality beyond my wildest dreams. _____________________________________ --Also, could you please define evil. Quote evil is all thoughts and actions produced in a self deified state, out side the Will of God. ______________________________________

To the contrary, atheists base a lack of belief on a lack of evidence*** Disagree. Atheism is a religion. You all have faith in your central myth " If science can't prove it, IT DOES NOT NOR EVER WILL EXIST". And then you have your concentric dogmas. Some which you all agree on, like God is a fantasy and all who acknowledge Him are deluded, along with other dogmas that aren't so unanimous. There is even a written cannon emerging. Dawkins comes to mind as one of the more important prophets and contributor to the cannon. _______________________________________

If we met in person I would never bring up this subject and would avoid it as much as possible. Most religous people tend to get upset when their beliefs are challenged*** Like wise, and I bet we would even be friends. I enjoy having my beliefs challenged so I can prune them as necessary. ____________________________________

If that's the case, then I must admit to misunderstanding many of your posts. Could you please precisely define spiritual truth as you are using it.*** My belief is this. Spiritual(moral) Truth exists just as does scientific truth. Both have been established by God, and knowledge of both are vital to survival.This knowledge is acquired through study, faith, experimentation, and validation. Truth needs to be embraced and increased, not corrupted and molded to serve our evil purposes. _______________________________________

QuoteMaadmax seems to be looking for a big cosmic sign that says there is no god and never has been before he will even consider the possibility that god never existed*** No, what I am curious about is since you all cannot base your belief on any concrete evidence, what subjective emotional feelings go into such an extreme conclusion. There seems to be a lot of repressed and overt anger in many of your posts. I am convinced that is at least one ingredient. ____________________________________

The kids in that novel did some pretty awful things to avoid the wrath of the beastie. If anything Golding showed how far astray religion can lead people*** On that point I agree. I am not defending religion and never have. What I am defending is the existence of spiritual truth and the consequence of its absence on the individual and society. _____________________________________