maadmax

What difference for me should it make how many people follow those texts if I don't give shit about 'em?Quote So explain to me how this works. If something is important to you then it deserves respect, but based on your previous posts, if some other topic does not engender your approval then it is fine to piss all over it. I will agree mutual respect is important to a point, but people who have a double standard don't have a leg to stand on. ________________________________________

[ Same thing can be said about 95% of the matter and energy that make up the universe. Its presence is suspected but there is no evidence to indicate what it is. So do we just assume it doesn't exist Man, it's very frustrating that I have to spend most of my time in SC chasing down and explaining why bad analogies are bad. We can fairly assume that there is matter in other parts of the universe because WE occupy a part of the universe and we can use our scientific knowledge to see the matter around us, and see the evidence of matter in far-flung parts of the universe. For example, we know about stars because hey, we live near one. We know what it does, and we can tell what it's made from. Hence, when we see stars in the distance, in other galaxies, we can say hey, ours is made of matter, theirs probably is too. But we have NOT seen comparable evidence or proof of a GOD here, so we can't say that there's a likelihood of a God anywhere else .Quote Before you start chasing anything, I would suggest you do a little research on Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Hadrons including baryons & mesons along with leptons make up 5% of the universe. That is the matter we can see and touch. Dark matter and energy makes up 95% of the universe and is as mysterious as the knowledge of God. Its presence can be felt but no evidence exists as to what it is. _______________________________________

Right, I was describing the scientific model, regardless of who does it, that's how it's done. And science dislikes the approach where we are always and forever certain of anything, as the entire mess is dynamic, always changing. UNlike religion that never even pick up the box and excommunicates anyone that dares to do so.Quote Maybe according to your "Pop Religion" books. The true Spiritual seekers tries to learn and apply God's Wisdom to their daily life. God's Wisdom is universally true. Universal Truth produces insightful understanding of the intangible reality that surrounds us. The reality that science totally ignores. Spiritual Wisdom is tested by a trial and error method. What works is kept, what doesn't is rejected or held out for more study. The Bible is a textbook of Spiritual Truth. When correctly understood, produces profound results in the life of the believer. A spiritually powerful, successful life is evidence of Universal Truth. _______________________________________

QuoteQuoteTill there is any evidence of any deity it is an assumption no matter how much anyone believes in it . SCORE! That point is unassailable. Nice job!Quote Same thing can be said about 95% of the matter and energy that make up the universe. Its presence is suspected but there is no evidence to indicate what it is. So do we just assume it doesn't exist? _____________________________________

However... the fundamental difference between our beliefs is I would acknowledge the existence of a/the god if the evidence was objectively compelling. Quote For me the existence and precision of the universe screams of a designer. That takes a lot less belief than chance occurrence. But I have noticed over the years that most people seem to decide for or against the existence of God before they have much scientific evidence either way. Whereas, I suspect no matter how compelling the evidence to the contrary, your belief wouldn't change..Quote I don't know. Try me. ________________________________________

Free will, you believe in free will? .... I contend we're complex automata that respond to our environments in statistically predictable ways: Individuals may seem to have act freely, but the range of choices is pretty limited. Of course...in our day to day lives, the illusion of free will is good enough to not be an issue...until someone is compelled to question it!Quote So what compelled you to decide that right and wrong, good and evil were yours to decide? Were you forced into your belief that God is a myth, and that you are the center of your universe. Was it brainwashing that allowed you to elevate yourself to the prestigious position of judging the Spiritual understanding of others? Some how I don't think so. ________________________________________

One more question about Christianity. The Bible says that unless you accept Jesus in your heart you go to hell. What about the people who live in the jungles of Africa who never in their lives have heard of Christianity or Jesus. Do they go to hell? If so why didn’t Jesus give them the opportunity to learn about him, but rather just punished them Quote As a Christian, one thing I know about God is that He is just and loving. Innocence will not be punished. How things will shake out in the end is anybodys guess. He has promised to never abandon His children and that He has prepared a place for us. My faith is in that promise. As far as Africans accepting Jesus, that is probably a non-issue for you. The question is whether you need a savior? If so, Jesus is that savior. If not , have a nice day. As far as the earth being 6000 years old, I have never gotten that out of my studies of Genesis, Matthew, or Luke. _____________________________________

It would be good to at least get the mama cat a rabies shot and spayed. The kittens need to be handled in order to become socialized and adoptable. It would also be nice to give them some revolution to get rid of fleas and worms. Most vets have kitten samples they can give you. GOOD LUCK

God must be real unfair, ......Do I need to go on, you are putting your energy into a lie my gullible friend, sorry but that is the truth. Don’t think that I don't believe in a divine source of life, but Christianity is a lie, there is no two ways about it, if you can't see it you are blind. .....Quote Very arrogant load of crap. So are you proclaiming to the lost, that you of all people hold the light of truth? God not meeting your expectations is of no concern to anyone. God is accountable only to Himself. How God chooses to reveal Himself is up to Him, it is not something that needs a majority consensus to become reality. ____________________________________

I would check his temperature. Tom cats commonly fight and develop abscesses. A high fever makes them lethargic. I would also check him for FIV, FeLV, and heartworms. A CBC and Profile along with a blood and fecal parasite exam would give you a lot of information. Plus don't be so stingy with your Vet he/she may need jump money to.

You apparently have little understanding of how science works. *** Why do you keep saying that? Do you automatically assume that anyone who has discovered what God has to offer is void of a science based education? I am very aware of the scientific method. I was talking about the process of discerning truth from a lie. Reality is a lot bigger than just the nuts and bolts of science. Not all discernment of reality can be accomplished by the scientific method. _______________________________________ _______________________________________

This is just a short example of built-in contradictions in the Christian beliefs. The only reply they could give us is famous "God works in mysterious ways", and we should not try to see any logic in the God's actions. *** As you suggest contradiction can indicate falsehood or deception in a given belief or statement. But contradiction can also be the hallmark of ignorance. God only works in mysterious ways to those who are ignorant of His ways. There are many contradictions in certain areas of science, only because at our current stage of discovery we are ignorant of the truth.(Ever expanding universe, Heisenberg uncertainty principle, space/time, gravity, big bang, atomic mass, wave/particle states etc. etc. etc.....) If the contradiction exposes a lie, reject it and move on. Otherwise it simply means that more information is required to resolve the dilemma. Not that God is false, illogical, guilty, evil, sinful or any other projected accusation. _____________________________________

You ask a lot of good questions. It appears your main point is that God screwed up by creating this mess and therefore I am off the hook in regards to acknowledging the existence of God. I wish you the best in what ever path you choose. If you are ever in Georgia, come to Skydive Atlanta we can make some jumps.

What do you mean by "access to Gods perfect value system"? Is it the value system humans shared, being created with it? How exactly they did have this access? God created us in His image. He can create reality, so can we. He taught us that pursuing the lusts of our hearts will lead to loss. Trusting and being obedient to God will produce the greatest gain. It is pretty simple, it is all up to you to decide what reality you will follow.

Please explain what the word "reality" mean in the quote above. Were humans omnipotent and omniscient? Were they "nowhere and everywhere"? What exactly was lost? God showed His love and responsibility by allowing Christ to neutralize the consequences of the worlds sin. Blame is not the issue regarding sin. Sin does not occur in a vacuum, every sin has an equal and opposite reaction. The consequence of sin must be dealt with. It is not possible. For example, the God had the choice - either create this tree in Edem (as everything was created by God, right?), or do not create it. The choice he made directly affected the "free will".***No argument here, external factors influence a free will decision, but ultimately free will is used to draw conclusions and make decisions. 1. We have an omnipotent and omniscient God who just created a couple of people. Since they didn't grow up with parents, we could safely assume the God put some knowledge in their brains during creation - after all, they didn't learn to communicate (in terms of language and vocabulary) themselves, right?***It is my belief that God created a fully functioning system of norms and standard producing a reality in the first humans like His own. Intact with a fully functioning free will, capable of using those values or rejecting them and replacing them with values of their own making. 2. Now you're claiming the God didn't want them to touch this tree. Since the God was the one who created those people, and educated them, he is at least on some level accountable for their actions (even human parents feel accountable for their children behavior). However the God knew she would eat from the tree, and did NOTHING to correct his lack of education in his creature.*** Please use accurate descriptions, touching the tree is trivial, self deification is not. I have also wondered about this epic struggle we find ourselves in many times. I still want an answer but am willing to wait for it, without rejecting the answers to other things that have been provided.

You have a poor understanding of time dilation. Relativity doesn't allow anyone to escape their present. Time is fundamentally related to velocity. That doesn't mean we can travel into the future any faster or slower than anyone else can, though it may seem like it to outside observers.QuoteTime travel as you say is related to velocity as well as strong gravitational fields such as an event horizon. My mistake may have been assuming you would know what I was talking about with out elaborating. An observer can theoretically go from one frame of reference to another frame of reference with speed or gravity being varied causing the passage of time to be different. If the speed was close to "c" or the gravity approached that of the escape velocity of light, then when the observer stepped back into his original frame of reference , as you know, it would now be his future. As far as reverse time travel, I haven't a clue, only that general relativity does not rule it out as a possibility. God says He can do it, therefore I believe He can. My original point being symmetry is an important part of physical laws. Forward time travel has no affect on free will, therefore reverse time travel (if possible) will also not have any affect on free will. Therefore foreknowledge does not preclude free will.

Please elaborate. How does general relativity allow observations into the future.Quote We can't of course , because as you pointed out, we are restrained by entropy. From my understanding of general relativity, time travel into the future is a provable reality(time dilation). Theoretically speaking there is no prohibition in general relativity for the time arrow being reversed. Since God claims to know the future , I believe it. Therefore He must not be restrained by entropy like we are.

I don't know what "having a mind like Gods" is. Is it being born sinless, or living a sinless life?Quote We were originally created with a mind like Gods. Gods reality and that of original humans was the same. After the fall we must now relearn what we have lost. The work of Christ and Truth found in the Bible is our best bet. But the God already knows how everyone would behave, and could give an accounting of their actions right there. Moreover, if he doesn't like the actions and wants the people to act differently, he has the power to change it. Why not to use it then?Quote God could influence our free will decisions, but He has chosen not to. I don't see why foreknowledge is so hard to understand in relation to free will. Knowledge of past events do not influence the free will that made them. In general relativity, past and future observations are both possibilities. One would not have more influence over free will than the other.

This would not make any sense. If our perfection or imperfection is external and comes from and depends on something outside, the it doesn't make any sense to not sin or to follow Jesus.Quote Sorry, don't follow your point. Our bodies perfectly conform to physical laws. Our spirits have the free will choice to conform to God's law or a law of our own choosing. Actually they weren't according to the Bible. Growing old and dying was a part of God's punishment for Adam and Eva for "apple rule violation", followed by their Edem expulsion.QuoteThat was true before the awareness of good and evil, now perfect function of living things is to grow old and die. You didn't exactly answer the question; what is "spiritual purity"? Does it mean "inability to sin"? Or just a "clean slate", like the babies are born right now?QuoteSpiritual purity is having a mind like Gods. There is no sin in Gods reality. We had to learn self deification through the knowledge of good and evil in order to sin. Then it means the God created the people being able to chose the knowledge of good and evil over the Knowledge of God, and therefore the God should be fine with this. What do you think?QuoteHe allows it, so He must be fine with it. I'm equating perfection with "doing what the God wants us to do, and not doing what the God does not want us to do". The "acceptance" is too vague word, and for this discussion like this I'd like to avoid interpretations whenever possible. That's why I'm trying to be very specific, and it would really help if you're too Quote Not sure what your objection is, but I don't classify behavior as perfect or imperfect. We are either in God's will and are acceptable or we are not and thereby rejected. But what sense it makes for everyone, who is already dead, and therefore cannot change anything? It won't have any educational effect (since it's too late); what for?QuoteThere will be a resurrection of all the dead. Small and great as it is described. Everyone will give an accounting of their actions. All the whining by some who lived here on earth that there is to much suffering, God is to harsh, God does not make any sense, His physical laws allows for creation to function perfectly therefore what need to we have for a God, etc, will probably be non-issues then.

But you have to! You obviously agree humans were not created perfect physically - there is enough evidence. What else it could apply to, if not spiritual state? Quote I may define perfect different than you. We all live in and are part of a universe perfectly controlled by physical laws. The physics that defines our existence is perfect, so we are perfect. Our bodies are designed to grow old and die, that is not imperfection. How we manipulate our perfect world on a metaphysical/spiritual basis is not a matter of perfection, it is a matter of being in Gods will or out of it. By saying "God created mankind sinless" do you mean that the God created everyone of us having presets to live sinless life? Or just the God created Adam and Eve sinless, but didn't give them any presets to keep them on sinless path? Quote It is my belief that God created the initial members of our species in a state of spiritual purity. I don't claim to have all of the details. Choices made by those people introduced the knowledge of good and evil into our collective consciousness which is the source of sin. They used their free will to chose the knowledge of good and evil over the Knowledge of God. It's pretty strange definition. I could hardly see how masturbation or premarital sex - obvious sins according to most Christian religions - remove the God from the creator role. Quote I am referring to the creation of our individual realities , not creation by procreation. I equate "God creates us perfect" with at least "as the God wanted us to act". Which also implies sinless. You have another opinion? Quote As far as actions, I see it that we are either in Gods spiritual reality or we are not. I don't see what perfect/imperfect has to do with it. Are you equating perfection with acceptable to God? From God's viewpoint you have no free will. He already knows all the decisions you will make, and everything you will do in your life. It's like an FPS computer game - you think you have free will there, and free to do whatever you want, but actually your "free will" is restricted and heavily manipulated by the game creator, and in most cases he knows exactly what you gonna do next. Quote I guess we will just disagree on this point. But why the God needs to _wait_ until the Judgment day, if - as Christians say - his goal is just to separate those who follow Christ and those who do not? Quote I agree with you, He doesn't. I believe He is doing it for us to see. ______________________________________

Yes, this might be the case, but then it - yet again - contradicts with Christian teachings. If the God created us imperfect, and knew this from the beginning, but then told us he expects us to be perfect or be punished otherwise, you cannot claim anymore that this God loves us and _wants_ us to be saved and live a perfect life. Quote I don't think perfect/imperfect applies to our spiritual state. God created mankind sinless. If we wish to relate to God we need to do it on His terms, i.e. by being sinless. Sin is simply all acts and thoughts accomplished when we remove God from the creator role of reality and insert ourselves. I don't equate perfect with sinless nor do I equate imperfect with sinful. I need to stress that from the omniscient God viewpoint there is no choice. You might believe you have choice (and therefore free will), but for God "everything is fixed and you can't change it" (C) Jesus, since the God is omniscient.Quote I will have to disagree with you on this. I believe that Gods ability to know the future does not negate the function of our free will at a future time. God could end everything before it began, but He allows it to play out so we might benefit from the process. So then do you believe the God really waits wondering whether we change or not? Do you now (after the omniscience thing discussion) see any sense in Judgment Day? Remember, the omniscient God who already knows what is going to happen already knows who was, is and will live and what kind of life.Quote I don't think God is waiting for anything. I think time is something we deal with. I don't see God affected by time or space. The Judgement day is for us, God already knows the outcome. ______________________________________

This is a tough question, because if you answer "yes", then a lot of things in the Bible do not make ANY sense. An omniscient creature does not have expectations, since you only have expectations when you do not KNOW how things will work. An omniscient creature does not need to wait until an atheist dies to "give him a chance to follow Christ" - it already knows whether this specific atheist will come to Christ or not. An omniscient creature knows who exactly will be sinner, and who will not be - and this includes everyone, including the people who hasn't born yet - so it doesn't need to wait until the Judgment Day. And that's only part of it.Quote You must have studied the Bible quite a bit before you turned your back on it. My personal belief is that God is omniscient. I don't claim to have all the answers why He brought us into existence. It appears to me, from my study of the Bible, that He created us for a purpose even though He knows the end result. Our free will decisions are crucial to the accomplishment of His purpose. I don't know that punishment is the correct term to apply to those who choose not to participate in Gods plan. The lake of fire is probably just another dimension of existence for those who choose it. But the Bible does give the impression that it is not a very happy place. Maybe it is just some type of continuum of the reality we experience here on earth. As far as expectations, I have never read in the Bible where it says He has any. He already knows what is going to happen. ________________________________________

- I don't believe there is a god. -Atheist - I don't believe there is not a god.- Believer (Double negative. So here you are saying " I believe there is a god" ) -I don't know if there is a god. -Agnostic If you are really serious, I don't know how you can really hold all three viewpoints at the same time. Maybe you could explain that to me. Does the company in which you find youself determine which viewpoint you subscribe to at any given moment? _____________________________________

Your questions demonstrate a fair degree of insight. More than your previous posts would indicate. Did you come up with these on your own or did you read them somewhere? Even though they are good questions you are basing them on interpretations that I don't entirely agree with. To pursue this line of thought we would have to back track to a point where we could agree on the premise information. And maybe talk about one question at a time. ______________________________________