bmcd308

My point with all this is that I wish the manufacturers would chunk it out with a bigger dummy at a faster speed and tell us what happened instead of making vague claims like "we believe it is the strongest reserve on the market." It is possible to get objective data about what happens at various weights and speeds. The manufacturers have that data. But instead of giving it to us, they tell us their stuff is certified under the "newest standards" (which does not mean it is any stronger than if it had been certified under the old) and imply that being certified under the newer standard somehow makes the product better or more suitable to our purposes. Some equipment even mentions in its marketing that skydivers are reaching higher speeds than ever before. However, despite the fact that the marketing materials say that a reserve is targeted to freeflyers, it appears that they are only willing to certify the gear at 150 knots, a slow sit for some people. Without revealing the results of drop tests at higher speeds, marketing materials that brag about the strength of the reserve canopy or its suitability to high-speed skydiving are worse than useless in terms of helping consumers of the equipment make informed decisions. And we, as skydivers, have let that happen. It was only after I watched someone land a blown up reserve that I even started getting curious about the maximum weight and speed at which my gear was designed to operate, and it was only once I started looking for gear rated to a higher speed that I realized how difficult it is to figure out exactly what forces my gear was designed to survive. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

I can't answer your question, but if you would do me a favor I would appreciate it. Look at the warning label on your Smart, and tell me the size of your reserve in square feet and the maximum operating weight and speed on the orange label. Please post those in the "Reserve TSO" thread. Thanks. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

I received a response from Aerodyne. It said that all Smart reserves were tested at 150 knots, which would imply a max TSO'ed speed of 125 knots, which is 142 mph. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

I just found this on the JumpShack website regarding the AngelFire 196: >>This 7 Cell F-111 Rectangular Planform Reserve is Certified under FAA TSO C23d. It has been tested structurally to 300 lbs at 207MPH. We recommend a Max wing loading of 1.2 to 1.

>>It is the actual TSO weight and was drop tested at higher weights.

>>The jav owners manual says that javs are now tso-ed under C23-d and that they're rated to 300lb at 198mph.

>>B) The temperature has even less to do with separation than does ground speed.

>>If the airspeed is 80 kts and wind speed is 80 kts in the opposite direction, ground speed is zero and there is no possible exit timing to produce safe horizontal separation. On the other hand, a hot air balloon has an airspeed of 0, but with 80 kts of wind it has a groundspeed of 80 kts. Assuming constant wind, there's still no possible safe exit timing. So ground speed isn't exactly the number we're looking for. But for a typical plane dropping jumpers in typical conditions, ground speed at altitude is a good indicator.

>>I'll really be dissapointed if I can't make this rig work for what I want to do.

I received a response from PD. >>We dropped the PR-99 through PR-253 at more than 300 pounds, going at least 180 knots. The canopy is certified for use up to 254 pounds at up to 150knots.

Despite my understanding that it is bad form to reply to one's own posts, I thought I would tell everyone that I e-mailed Precision, PD, and Aerodyne through the addresses on their websites, asking them the max weight and speed at which the r-Max, PDR, and Smart, respectively, were TSO'ed in sizes relevant to me. I also asked the weight and speed at which the canopies were drop tested. I'll post those responses when I get them. I have already received a response from PD that was basically just a notification that they got my e-mail and would get back to me, although it contained the somewhat puzzling statement that the max exit weight for a PDR-193 is 232 lbs. This is in conflict with the chart on the web site, which shows it as 254 lbs. All the web sites give only the max weight - none mention the speed to which that weight applies. According to the web sites, the max weights are: PDR-193 254 lbs (232 lbs per e-mail from PD) Smart 150 through Smart 220 - 264 lbs. R-Max 188 226 lbs. R-Max 208 245 lbs. I found the relatively low "max suggested weights" on the R-Max surprising, since it is marketed as a stronger reserve than other designs. It may well be the case, however, that the lower weight comes with the advantage of a higher speed. We shall see... Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

I'm not really enthused about that plan unless you KNOW you cannot get back. Even if you spend the whole skydive cupping the ball, I would like for you to be as close as possible at breakoff so that everyone can see each other. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

>>For cat C, they are tested to 300 pounds at 230 kts and TSO'd to 254 pounds and 175 kts.

From the Sunrise Rigging website: >It is one of few systems on the market today that has passed the TSO-C23d. This means that the Wings harness has been thoroughly tested and approved for heavier weights at higher speeds.

Having the group on very different levels at breakoff is a situation that can go bad in a hurry. Do what you can to make sure everyone is on the same vertical plane at breakoff. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

On the "Max Suspended Weight" poll thread, Riggerbob posted the following: >>Under TSO C23C and D, the manufaturer must prove that the rig will survive opening at 150 knots with 254 pounds. However, under TSO C23D, they have the OPTION of certifying a rig to heavier weights or higher air speeds.>w/ TSO C23-D they can go as low as 220 pounds, like the PD-106R

And you forgot to mention the one new piece of info - the guy on the other side of the curtain from him in the hospital rips these 5 second long farts at 140 decibels every two minutes. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

Search this forum for "freefly handle" if you are wondering about the difference in the handles. If you are considering a pullout instead of a throwout, there is an article on the pros and cons of each in the gear section. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

>>TSO C23C and D

Max TSO weight or max recommended weight of the mfg? Some mfgs claim 254 lbs certification then put a max recommended weight below that. I searched but could not find the old thread about it. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

When I hear about lines breaking below the cascades, it always makes me wonder why the cascades are there in the first place. Does anyone know if there is an advantage other than pack volume to having cascades? Would a reserve with continuous dacron lines be so big that no one would buy it? I would think that using dacron instead of more modern materials on a reserve would allow some stretch in overspeed situations, and if the lines were continuous more of them could break and leave a somewhat controllable assembly behind. Other than the resulting giant rigs, what other problems might there be with such a design? Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

>>The good thing is the jumper didn't get hurt

OK, I edited my post above. Chris is going to need an extra sheet of paper to write the incident report. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

To fully understand how freaky this was, you need to remember the following: 1. premature reserve deployment 2. reserve malfunction 3. main deployment with line twists 4. main reserve entanglement 5. downplane - main reserve entanglement - downplane - reserve-main-reserve entanglement - stable side by side with partial reserve in tow - downplane 6. landing a downplane EDITED TO ADD - Oh, yeah, 6 1/2. Landed a downplane 10 feet from power lines. BACK TO OUR PREVIOUSLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM - 7. survival of incredibly horrific landing 8. attacked by snakes I left one out. 8 1/2. Rescue worker stops to hit on the girl waiting at the gate by the field to direct them back to the accident scene instead of coming on back to actually rescue someone. 9. disabled friend laying in wildfire 10. rescue of disabled friend from wildfire in back of suv by untrained personnel with no idea whether we were hurting him worse by moving him 11. volunteer FD can't get the pumper truck to pump water during their rescue of the rescue vehicles stuck in a burning field 12. lifeflight ONE JUMPER on ONE JUMP. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com

It is a method of determining proper exit separation that does not work. You look out the door at the group before yours, and when they have fallen behind the plane to a 45 degree angle, there is enough separation for your group to go. It is not a preferred method of determining separation. There have been lots of exit separation threads in Safety and Training. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com