falxori

if they can't keep Hizbollah fighters off their outpost? yes, they should leave. Is its their own fault that they died? No, it is Hizbollah's fault, and maybe the UN's who didn't do anything when they've reported Hizbollah is using them as human shields. if i take you hostage and use you as a shield to shoot at others, am i not responsible if you get hurt when the police tries to stop me? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and with a sniper 500 meters from there you could nicely pick out the hizbollah fighter without even damaging the scenery... but you do not know what was the tactic stance at the time and what was the availability of each type of ammunision there. you don't actually know when and where were hizbollah personnel in the area and what exactly they were doing there (beside the email stating they were usually there using the UN people as shields) you keep blaming who hurt the shield and not who picked up an innocent shield while shooting others behind it... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

i don't know about "building taken" but here you go : i think this statement is pretty clear in saying that hizbollah was in fact turning the UN outpost into a legitemite target. as soon as there are Hizbollah in/on/under or around the UN post, it is no longer neutral. if the UN didnt want them there (which i'm sure was the case) it was entirely their job to kick them out. what i'm saying is that Israel's target was still Hizbollah and where it is firing from and not the UN personnel directly. according to your idea, if Hizbollah is firing from civilian/UN area, it should be immune. well, it is not and the civilians' blood is on its hands "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

first it was said there were none in the whole area. if they've fired rockets from 10 feet of the structure its the same thing. where did you get this from? i never heard this before. yeah well, according to the UN secretary general there was NO Hizbollah activity in the area. does this officer have all of the info? is he qualiffied to make this absolute claim? could it be that he was looking for someone to blame over the regretable loss of his friend's lives? you mean as the UN officer who was stationed there claimed? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

shall i quote you the email from the guy who was actually there? you (and others here) first ASSUMED that the UN post was attacked with a single purpose of killing them (as if Israel has any reason to do so). now that there is absolute proof that Hizbollah was using the UN post as cover (as mentioned by the UN observers on site) you start analyzing the structure, ASSUMING where they might have been and what is the size and type of ammunition needed in order to kill the Hizbollah 10 feet from the outpost but not damage the outpost itself. you can build a lot of thoeries based on these assumptions but the 2 basic facts remain 1)Israel has nothing to gain from killing UN personnel. 2)Hizbollah was using this outpost as cover (even if not on top of it) just like it uses a lot of civilian structures to hide its rockets. and once it does, these structures become targets. would you blame a cop shooting someone who was holding a hostage and shooting at other people if the hostage got hit by mistake too? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

it seemed they've tried to tell the UN, but the UN (as always) ignored. why didn't the UN make Hizbollah's use of UN outposts public? why didn't the UN evacuate it's people, knowing their unarmed outpost is overrun by hizbollah? i don't understand what's your problem with Israel's response, if Hizbollah is shooting from it, its a target. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

like they've "observed" and even Video taped the abduction and murder of 3 Israeli soldiers a few years ago (which btw was denied by the UN, until the video surfaced...) do you know what the outpost looks like? where is the shelter and where exactly hizbollah was and wasn't? btw, the UN still claims that "there was no Hizbollah" activity in the area, even when the UN guy who was there says they were all over the place. I'm very sorry for the outcome of it, but you can't have enemy fighters running free at a UN post and expect nothing, and it seems that the poor UN guy knew that. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

so now you're saying it was justified to fire at the post, but the size of the bomb was not ok... what next? you want bombs that will ask a person if he's a member of Hezbollah before it explodes? let me quote again the guy who was actually there: if Hezbollah was using this post it becomes a valid target, just like any other civilian building used to hide troops or rockets. its sad that civilians/UN get hurt, but its hezbollah who puts them there "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

maybe if UNIFIL did what it was meant to do and didn't allow Hizbollah to use its bases as cover. as soon as a building is used as cover for hizbollah fighters it cannot hide behind the UN flag. anyway, i think the email sent by the UN soldier a few days before the incident is pretty clear in showing that the UN there (much like the civilians) are hostages of Hizbollah "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, a more accurate analogy would be if... the terrorist/drug dealer/whatever is not just sitting in his flat, he is currently shooting at other civilians from your appartment. and on top of all, the police has asked you to leave but you've refused. then the police did what it had to do, risking hurting you in order to stop the terrorist/drug dealer/whatever from shooting at others in the area. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

not surprising... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

don't forget the part were hizbollah fired its rockets from a few meters from that UN compound. I may be off but i think they might have known that and did it on purpose... but who will stop it? sadly it takes one side to start but two to stop. your example is nice but the conclusion is wrong. if both sides of a conflict ran out of ammo they'll use sticks if needs be. according to your example, only one side has to run out of ammo for the war to stop. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

like most of history's event, we're probably unaware of the true motives behind current affairs... the Syrian president is very close to taking the heat for the former lebanese PM killing, and the Iranians are taking the heat for their nukes plans. so both have a lot to gain from diverting the focus from themselves and both have the means to do it in Lebanon. your analysis is correct, Iran is the prime sponser of Hezbollah but syria played an active role in arming and supporting it. as for your P.S 1) I'm sorry you feel this way. I can assure you that here we feel that we were forced into a war we do not want. what makes me even more sad is that it reduces the chances of pulling out of the west bank soon (it seems that where ever israel pulls out, it is attacked) 2) funny, looking at the forums lately, i don't feel the same. I feel Israel is taking a lot of heat for something any country would do in its position. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Hi Mike i can accept that one's freedom fighter is another's terrorist, but looking closely mainly at lebanon (but also at Gaza), freedom? they have no one to be "freed" from... true for Hamas, but Hizbollah's leaders are Lebanese whos patron is Iran. I agree with most of the rest of your post and it is very sad. that's why a lasting solution must be achieved or we will have another round in the future. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

a cease fire will be valid only as part of a lasting solution. temporary cease fires were tried in the past and were always broken by Hezbollah at some point. an international force (if not all Lebanese) is required but it has to be one that can actually do something, unlike UNIFIL which is useless. some are. but they still store and fire rockets from within civilians. you are trying to take one example and making it into the general truth. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

just point me to the leader who can/will sort out their madmen... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

although I didn't read the whole thread, let me get this straight. first, you say that it was deliberate because Israel used precision weapons so if it hits something it means that it meant to hit it. then you say that it was deliberate because there were several earlier tries that missed. its war, and its a war which is faught in a small area. and it might shock you but some of Israel's casualties were a result of friendly fire (which happens in any war). Israel has nothing to gain from hurting UN poeple beside bad publicity which it gets enough of as it is. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

agreed. I can assure you (although I cannot prove it) that the attack on the UN outpost was a mistake and was not deliberate. Israel has nothing to gain from attacking a UN post. we have a lot of complaints about UNIFIL because they're not doing their job and allowing Hizbollah to do whatever they want and even use UN posts as cover. agreed. that's for the Lebanese government to take care of. once these rockets fly towards Israel, Israel has to find and destroy them. Terror is often worse to its own people, same goes for the Palestinians. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

look up the incident i was talking about in LAX and see that people insisted on calling it "a hate crime" and not a terror attack. the response is disproportinate. what would you suggest? one missile per one katyusha rocket? the problem is Hizbollah sitting on the border and shooting whenever it wants. this problem will not disappear with "one for one" response. it will either go away by the lebanese government taking care of its on land (which they haven't or sadly, by Israel who is forced to go in and remove the knife from its throat. and on a side note, I regret the loss of innocent lives and there are such losses on both sides, but i do not count as "innocent lives" those who are Hizbollah fighters with civilian clothes and not even civilians who live in a house which also store ammunision and rockets. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I'm just waiting for the first clown who will jump and say "it's not terror, its a hate crime" like they did in the LAX shooting a while ago O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ask yourself the same question. tough question, especially when ALL hamas terrorists (and hezbollah too) are civilians. they do not exactly follow international law that states that all combatants should be clearly marked and wear uniform. not to mention not operating from within civilian areas. that question should be who tries to kill more civilians and what are the targets. again you look at the effect and not at the reason as you often do. there are many palestinians in Israeli jails because there are many palestinian terrorists who are plotting to blow up Israeli busses. i'm sure you'd be happy if they were free to do as they wish. but they are in jail because they belong there. the best thing would have been if they were in PA jails, but if the PA doesn't stop them, Israel will. International law is a big phrase. lets be more specific... you probably mean the fact that civilians get hurt. well go back one step to where the palestinians use them as human shields and they themmselves don't wear anything that will differentiate them from their civilians shields... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Simple, its home. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you mean like they tried to do in gaza? oh wait, that didn't lead to peace and quiet there... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

true, but news is reported and edited by people. those people have view, standards and personal feelings that influence how they report things. I can honestly tell you that I often feel the same only on the other direction, especially when news agencies use local palestinians as reporters. I'm sorry that you believe we do not care for other lives because its simply not the case. I especially feel bad for lebanon because i see them as a victim of Hizbollah, but being a sovereign country, they cannot allow another military with its own agenda to operate and not be held responsible. the status quo were hizbollah is on our borders, with more than 13,000 missiles (almost 2000 fired in the past few days) aimed at us, attacking whenever it wants to is simply not acceptable. the attack that started all of this was simply the last straw in an unacceptable situation (also unacceptable by the international community). nothing to be sorry for, there are two sides for everything. the right one and yours "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

wait a minute... so if a report doesn't match your views then its racist? weren't you the one who was complaining when he's called a racist by people who didn't agree to his views? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."