falxori

how about trying peace rather than fighting? what set of rules would that be? you keep bringing up the damage to civilian population as a vioaltion of the rules, ignoring the fact that conducting warfare from within civilian population is a more serious violation of these rules. you can't pick and chose the rules you like. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

so let me get that straight, attacking Hezbollah is attacking lebanon because they were elected to parliment? doesn't it also mean that Hezbollah's attack on Israel (which ignited everything) is an attack by Lebanon as a state? same goes for Hamas and the PA (even more so because they are in control of the government) "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

tell me something, would it be ok for the iraqis to shoot that 13 y/o kid? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

here you go: http://www.zygotefilms.com/vaan_jpost.htm i don't know of any law about that in israel but i'm sure if you invest a lot of money somewhere, they'll consider your application favorably. "brainpower" can give you credit on your application, but it doesnt automatically grants you citizenship. like any other country, if they feel you'll be useful, you'll be able to work there more easily (and get citizenship after a few years) none in Israel, but I don't think its very common outside the US. in 2000 (the statistics i've found on a quick search) there are about 150,000 legal foreign workers (and about as many illegals who have outstayed their permits or came as tourists) in Israel. thats about 15% of the workforce. getting a permit depends on what you do and how required it is in Israel. it has nothing to do with your race, skin color or religion (most of the foreign workers are from asia, africa and eastern europe) this whole threat had a point to display Israel as a state with racist laws which it is not. it IS easier for jews to move to Israel but it doesn't mean other can't. they simply have to face the same procedure and meet the same standards they would in any other country "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

such as? if I take the US as an example, as far as I know you can get citizenship either by being born there, being born to a US citizen parent or getting a green card and residing there for a few years. as far as I know in the EU its pretty much the same. some countries are easier than others (e.g canada Vs. the US). the basic ways to become a citizen in most countries as far as I know are: -being born there -having a parent or grand parent who is a citizen -marrying a citizen (sometimes with a delay of a few years) -residing there for several years and applying for citizenship (usually you need to proove your "center of life" is in the same country -special cases decided by the authorities what other options do you know of? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, it means that Israel is as open to immigration as any other country with the exception that jews can find a refuge here if they need it (based on historic events, they do). I don't remember the US or western europe allowing free immigration these days. in that sense, you can move to Israel under the same conditions i could move to the US (if i werent a US citizen , which i am.) "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

some fled in 1948 when Israel was created. those who didn't became Israeli citizens (and are about 20% of the population, have members in the parliment etc.) if you are talking about the west bank, that is not part of Israel and the population there does not have Israeli citizenship. yes, much like an Israeli can become a US citizen, either by being born there, get a work permit or marring a citizen. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

yes. by family relation to a citizen, by getting a work permit and staying here for a few years or by marring an Israeli citizen. much like most of the other countries on this planet. the difference you refer to is the jews can immigrate to Israel without all that and it was done in order to make sure every jew on this planet could find refuge here. i'm sure you can see why they felt it was needed after the holocaust. but it doesn't mean others can't, if they meet the normal requirements "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

it means the UN charter to establish Israel as a nation. the descussion about the UN and its role in this conflict is long and complicated and its been discussed here many times before "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no. there is only one type of israeli citizenship. Israeli Arabs who were within the borders of Israel in 1948 were given full Israeli citizenship and have the same rights as any other Israeli (jewish or non jewish) most arabs do not serve in the military (beside most of the druze and beduin who do) like most israelis (beside the orthodox religious jews who also don't serve in the army) the only "unique" status is of arabs in eastern jerusalem (annexed after 1967) who are allowed to vote, get all social benefits and have Israeli ID cards but i think there is a difference in their legal status from a normal citizen. your whole implication of differences based on race or religion is simply not true. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

some of his points are valid, most are far from accurate. I can't say that there is no discrimination. there is everywhere on this planet. but suggesting that it is embedded in Israel's law book is simply not true. for example the ruling was that no automatic citizenship will be given based on marriege, not that you can't marry. there are no civil ceremonies (and not even alternative religious ones) but if you get married elsewhere in a civil service, it is recognized by the state (although not by the religious institutes) Israel doesn't have a constitution yet, thats true, but there is a set of base laws that define things like government type, freedom and equality by law. I will not quote actual laws, but here is a part of the Israeli declaration of Independence which pretty much sums it up. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

its very relevant. again, not true. if you set out to kill someone with your car its 1st degree murder. if you get drunk and cause an accident, you may be guilty but not of the same crime. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

although many civilians got killed too, these numbers are not accurate. many more than 46 hezbollah fighters were killed. I don't know if the totals should be higher or if many of those counted as civilians are actually guerilla fighters (also a kind of civilian) "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you mean the UN post used by hezbollah as a shield, as described by the actual UN observer there? do you want proof? ok. there are multiple videos (many shown on the news too) of rocket launchers firing and then taking cover inside a village. the UN post was used as cover by hezbollah fighters. that's semantics. what it means that during that limited cease fire declared, there will be no strikes against suspected storage areas of rockets and other infrastructure but only air cover for active fighting will be provided. don't forget that english is not the first language for most israelis and direct translation from hebrew doesn't always mean the exact same thing. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Israel Has ignored them and indeed following Israel's pull out of lebanon 6 years ago, Hezbollah's main reason to exist was no more. not wanting to disappear, Hezbollah started attacking Israel for no good reason. once it was the shabaa farm area, then it was "to help our palestinian brothers" and so on all of that while arming to the teeth with thousands of rockets, building fortifications and shooting every now and then just to remind us that they are there there is so much you can ignore... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and yet, you are still comparing a single incident that might or might not have even happened (excuse me, but too many serious accusations that proved to be false were made in the past) to a standard method of operation. Israel WAS in that situation. it all depends on what is "winning". Israel "winning" means it can live in peace so when the time to make a choice came it chose to set up a state on part of the land rather than fighting and dying for all of it. If the palestinians' goal was to live in peace they could have started to build their state in Gaza and i can promise you that if that experiment worked, the west bank would have soon followed. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

only because we've been seeing it arming itself with thousands of rockets, building bunkers on the border and taunting our border towns (not to mention firing every now and then). war broke out only when it was too much to bear already. we really have no business in Lebanon. even the UN which is not exactly pro-israeli has declared Israel's pullout of lebanon was complete. the Shaba farms area you're talking about is nothing but an excuse. if it wasnt that, they would have found another (and just for the record, it was syrian before 67) yes, lets not forget yet another place Israel has pulled out from and still being attacked from. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

thanks, i'm doing ok. was just away in Madrid for work. and in two days going skydiving in russia "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

as i said , i don't know anything about this incident beside a report of accusation and nothing more. i'm saying that if it happened, it was dealt with because in other occassions where soldiers acted illegaly, they were prosecuted. Yes i am. i'm a proud part of this nation and I know it and its values better than you ever will. you mean the part of the evidence that you chose to look at while ignoring everything else? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

that's exactly what you did when you said "both sides use civilians". if what you've quoted really happened than it was a criminal act and was dealt with accordingly. it is very different from waging your entire war dressed as a civilian, from a civilian home and behind civilians hoping they'll get hurt. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I asked if there was logic is telling people to leave only to target them in their cars. and logic is subjective. I'm telling you that by Israeli logic it is not logical. quoting this a lot lately, aren't you? you take one accusation, not even knowing if its true or false and make it into an official war policy? if (and i mean a big IF) this incident happened as described, it is a serious violation of military rules and those involved would have been kicked out of their units and thrown to jail. do you have the rest of this report? something like the Israeli response or what happened next? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

poles can be ignored. that's my vote "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you said Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah do the same. and when exactly did you see an Israeli soldier hiding behinda child? sure they are accountable for the government they've elected, that still doesnt mean Israel targets them as part of the fighting "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

oh really? when exactly Israel has stored its guns inside houses? I can't prove you wrong, but you are. asking people to leave (so they won't get hurt) and then targeting them on purpose seem logical to you? if you say that it mean you have no understanding of the Israeli way of thinking. there are enough of raw material from suicide bombings and rocket hits that is never published. its simply not our way. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

if I just hold you hostage they'll try talking first, if I shot at random people every now and then, they'll try to kill me without hurting you, but if i'm throwing granades that are killing lots of people they will very quickly shoot with what they have that will stop me, risking you being hurt too. that's pretty much a good analogy to what's been happening with hizbollah. when they didn't fire, Israel didnt fire, when they've fired a little, Israel targeted their fully militaristic outposts but when they fire rockets from within vilages thats a new story. agreed, even more proof that the attack was not against the UN personnel, it serves none of Israel's goals. you'll be amazed how little effect big guns can sometimes have in gurilla war and when they shoot and 2 minutes later take cover in a civilian structure there is little you can do. if Israel held its fire whenever a civilian structure was used as cover we would have nothing to shoot back at. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."