jenfly00

Don't play all modest. You are a source of amusement for many. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I'm guessing that when there is more reality than humor, one tends to focus on the reality. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

If you call building a very complex geometric structure 'instinct' you might have a point. Denying an "inherent fixed action pattern" as genetic memory is really splitting hairs, but you seem so certain, so have at it. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

This dovetails nicely with another discussion in SC. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3155069;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread See my posts #55 and #57 concerning instinctual behavior, the 'warrior' class and the ability to understand and comprehend instinctual behaviors as indicators of what Quade refers to as "intelligence" on the evolutionary scale. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

And then later you wrote . . . as if this somehow "proved" something; Nope, I directly answered the question posed by the original poster. Exactly how much do you know about the number Phi and how often it occurs in nature? If, as you are suggesting, that geometry is somehow "proof" of actual intelligence, then how "intelligent" for example is a sunflower? How did you come up with that?!?! Implicit in von's response was that the stimulus/response of flinching was pretty much the limit of genetic coding (that, and 'uh, we're not like bees). I sited an example of extremely detailed, exacting engineering information that was genetically coded and passed to succeeding generations. 'Instinctual' behavior does not imply the possesion of the intelligence to comprehend. Which may be a good thing http://books.google.com/books?id=wwAQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=elaborate+instincts&source=web&ots=PKu8RQec6H&sig=EAmn37mwsihua7Cuao4zfybp10w&hl=en The efficiency of the design is simply the result of millions of years of evolution and attempting to pack as much into an area while expending as little energy as possible in the form of materials. The reward for more successful packing is a slight advantage to the hive and therefore a slight advantage to survival. Lesser designs fall by the wayside and eventually, over the course of millions of years, better designs are hardwired into the limited amount of dna that is transfered down through the ages. absolutely!!!! ...and this information is passed through the process we are calling genetic memory! reply] ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Hmmm. American Heritage Dictionary pri·mar·y (prī'měr'ē, -mə-rē) Pronunciation Key adj. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal. I received an email a few months ago that suggested the forum name be changed from 'Speakers Corner' to the 'Bill von Novak Aggrandizement Forum'. Sounds like a good idea! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Hmmm, so you equate the construction of a structurally sound nest, in the right place at the right time to fear of falling (a rather simple stimulus-response reaction)???? That's not explanation, that's pontification (or as my mom calls your postings ...'vontifications'). As to bees, and others animals, (please see the remainder of my post you conveniently left out when replying) ...or try here: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~insrisg/nature/olio/honeycomb.html Bees build comb for storage of honey to last them through the winter when the flowers they feed on are not available. The honeycomb is vertical with horizontal storage tubes, like a pile of unsharpened lead pencils carefully pressed together. (Social wasps and hornets build vertical tubes.) Honeycomb is two faced with different tubes on each side; thus an individual tube goes only half way through the comb. Two of the six sides of the tubes are always vertical and each tube slants slightly downward toward the middle of the comb, which helps prevent the honey from running out as the worker bees fill it. Why did these honeybee engineers "choose" these six sided tubes? Why didn't they build cylinders or prisms with triangle or square or other cross sections? The answer is straightforward. Their hexagonal tubes use less wax for the volume of honey they hold. Each wall in the honeycomb serves two tubes which avoids the wasteful duplication of cylinders and most polygonal prisms. Only triangular or square tubes can also share all walls, but hexagonal tubes still use less wax for the amount of honey: 18% less than triangular tubes, 7% less than square tubes. Even more remarkable is the way the tubes meet in the middle of the comb. If you removed the honey and the wax where the tubes meet and peered through the holes, you would see that the tubes on opposite sides are offset: the center of a tube on one side is at the corner of tubes from the opposite side. You can demonstrate this by constructing several comb units as suggested by the accompanying diagram. And the wax that separates the opposite tubes is not a single flat wall. Instead each tube ends in three rhombuses that come to a point, like a pencil cut with only three knife strokes. (A rhombus is a four sided plane figure with all sides equal; it is like a tilted square.) The three end walls of one tube serve as single walls for three adjacent tubes from the opposite side of the comb. In about 1720, Miraldi measured the corner angles of these end walls and found them to be about 70° and 110°. You can imagine the thrill mathematicians enjoyed when Koenig and Maclaurin used the then new techniques of the calculus to determine that these were the angles that would give the maximum volume for this configuration. This result was scarcely tarnished when Toth showed in his 1964 paper that a more complicated set of four end walls would give slightly better results. His improvement was only about a third of a percent and the construction would be more difficult. I doubt even those in your cheap seats would equate this with fear of falling, so you fall back on, 'uh, we're not like bees'. You counter this with ...uh, we're not like bees.

So, each nesting bird works out on their own that they should build a nest and figure out how, when and where to do it? The exacting geometry of honeycombs comes from the trial and error of each bee generation ...perhaps a comb building commitee? Each male three spined spickle backed fish decides, individually and independently, to build a little cave in the mud and then performs an elaborate 'dance' to drive the female into the opening? All animals perform actions (some from the moment of birth), without outside instruction, that promote their survival. Instinct? What is instinct but a form of genetically passed information/memory. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

That's a lie! You swore at people! You used an expletive, vulgarity & obscene profanity in a public forum BECAUSE you disagreed with them. You could've choosen other words, but you didn't. I'm ashamed FOR YOU of your behavior, even if your not, and now your denial of such action equates to a lie. DZ.com RULE: it goes on to say regardless of where they live. BTW a dictionary: bull·shit interjection Slang: Vulgar. –noun 1. nonsense, lies, or exaggeration. –verb (used with object) 2. to lie or exaggerate to. –verb (used without object) 3. to speak lies or nonsense. –interjection and the good old encyclopedia: As it contains the word "shit", the term is sometimes considered foul language, hence the use of the euphemistic abbreviations "bull" and "BS". Nonetheless, the term is prevalent in American English and, as with many words, the term is used in a variety of countries, some dating back to approximately the same era World War I. In British English, bollocks is a comparable expletive, although bullshit is now a commonly used expletive in British English also. and on the usage of the the word bullshit: The word "bullshit" is most often applied adjectivally to deprecate a statement or an action. Bullshit (as a culturally based activity) commonly occurs in situations where truth and accuracy are far less important than the ability to achieve a suitable response in the audience, often needed in politics, religion or advertising).. In many cases, such a response helps to gain popularity or favor. I don't agree with all that ...but I appreciate your patience and look forward to additional learning experiences in the future. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I'd love to know the 'rational explanation' for this.. I was playing bass late one night in our studio loft ((above a friends retail store, the building was one of the older ones downtown and had been rumored to be haunted for years) The studio was actually a radio station in the early 50s) Since I was the only one there I was cranked up waaaaaay louder than usual literally rattling the walls.. a couple times that night I could have sworn I heard a womans voice call my name, right behind my ear... I'd stopped several times, and even walked around the whole place when I paused for a beer and smoke break.. so back upstairs i'm wailing away again when I very clearly heard glass shatter (which i sort of can understand, as it is a completely different frequency range so..) thinking I broken a window or some expensive vase down stairs in the shop I stopped playing and walked out to see what I broke.... I didnt find anything walking around checked all the windows and stuck my head out into the street thinking someone might be breaking in nearby....until I went back upstairs and found a light bulb in the corner of the stairwell that had fallen some 18+ feet from the ceiling to the floor (I know I'd replaced them before and it was quite a pain) and NOT BROKEN. I'm all about rational explanations, but I still cannot imagine how that bulb (even if it wasnt screwed in properly which i'm fairly sure it was because it was on earlier) fell 18+ feet to a hardwood floor and didnt break, and I really dont know what it was I'd been hearing on and off all night, and particularly what I'd heard break right before than made me stop... what I DO BELIEVE is that there are many types of energy and many ways of manipulating that energy we have yet to understand... there is no such thing as 'super natural' there is simply 'nature' we have not grasped the edges of yet. We had a guy in the ER with a linear skull fracture. Strangely enough, he was hit in the head with a chicken egg which DID NOT BREAK...it then fell to the ground and broke. I have no idea what strange spirits or energies were in play there, but while drawing his blood, I clearly heard a woman's voice calling my name and an erie high pitched noise. Further investigation revealed it was the patient in the next bay calling me ...and another ambulance coming in. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Just the opposite, actually. Breakfast foods are usually ones that need the digestive help of being up, active and working. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Physical factors or psychological factors. Some people have a abnormal need to experience things strange or exceptional. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Gun oil in the fuel line. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I agree. Some people think something like that is a big deal, some people don't. The card thing was no big deal. Going to HR? Big deal! ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Hehehehehe, you put it in quotes and still don't get it.

Hehehehehe, you put it in quotes and still don't get it.

Do you lead a reasonably sad exsistance? I only ask because it would seem that way from my angle of view My reply was in response to people questioning Ambers morality and weighing it up against what they consider to be a small thing. I highly doubt you are in any position to question Mine Ambers or anyone elses moral code. but hey it cost nothing to try to slight me so have at it I've seen you gallop before ...on several occasions. I don't know you, just your type. As to the former, it's sometimes a fine line between following a moral code and being driven by personal demons. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

That's the best response yet to this thread. ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ Stop the small thing the bigger things tend to be less Amber always work from your own level of personal integrity, without that you have very little left As a member of my Neighborhood Watch, I heard my next door neighbor state that he got a good deal on the beautiful white picket fence he just had put in. Zoning restricts fences to 36" ...his is 40. I better do the right thing and turn him in. It's the small things, ya know. Another town ordinance states that you cannot put your trash can out to be collected more than 24 hours in advance. Pickup is 0800 Fridays and I definitely saw him putting his trash out at 0630 thursday as he was leaving town for a long weekend. We must stop these scofflaws before civizilization comes to an end. Speed limit in my town is 25 mph, I seen some people screaming through at what must be 28-30!!! Take down their tag numbers and report them to the police???? My neighbor put up a tool nice looking aluminum tool shed ...didn't get a permit. Turn him in???? I see an fellow employee take packets of sugar from the cafeteria and bring them back to her department for coffee. Call the police? Go to HR. My god, if I let this go, where will it stop? Sometimes it's doing the right thing and sometimes it controlling emotional problems before they destroy you. It's about perspective, balance and ...employability. ...or were you just once again galloping to the rescue of a damsel in distress to win favor? It's hard to tell sometimes. If so, just ignore my above reply and good luck. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

You recently posted about how seriously your unemployment was affecting your life. A few months prior to that you posted you had major issues on another job you just started. What is the world is driving you that you would create another major ethical issue (over essentially nothing), three days into a job you evidently very much need?????? Rightly or wrongly, I'm betting the HR director is thinking "damn, this new employee is gonna be a pain in the ass. On her third day at work she's sitting in my office with some tiny piece of bullshit that nobody cares about that she has rooted out ...so now I have to take more time to deal with it now that she has brought it to me." ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I thought Don [prirana] presented some sophisticated and nuanced contextual aspects to the arguments, which is not to imply that I either agree or disagree with them - but they did make me think. Do you have some counter-examples or arguments because I am interested in hearing them. What do you see that he & I are missing that has yet to be brought into the discussion? Last fall, I was working with some folks down at the Port of Savannah where another part of Real ID is being implemented for access to the port (the 3rd largest in the US by volume, if I recall correctly). There are real issues of economic impact there for many reasons, including concerns that the screening process will eliminate large numbers of drivers and port workers who have past felony convictions. Thanks. VR/Marg If you or anyone want to post "sophisticated and nuanced contextual aspects to the argument" more power to them. It presents the poster as an intelligent and thoughtful individual and adds weight to their point of view ...pretty much the same way one dresses in their best clothes, enters the church, dabs in the holy water, genuflects, sits, stands and does all the ritualistic responses adds status. Dressing in clean, neat jeans and plain shirt and just saying, "I love God" without the rituals will not be viewed as ...proper. My response was to one comment prirana made, "Full access to our lives isn't the proposal". I believed that to be overly naive and simplistic. Two, flag waving conservatives took exception and used the absence of ritualistic responses to go running to momma basically screaming "SHE IS WEARING PLAIN CLOTHES! SHE DIDN'T USE THE HOLY WATER OR GENUFLECT! ''Momma' bought it and gave me "one warning" ...for breaking no rules. The ability to separate content from ritualistic response is rather important, don't you think? ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

And yet, you manage to dress and feed yourself ...amazing. Nice PA... My bad. Let me translate that into something you might understand. Perhaps I should have said, 'You do not understand what is happening'. I realize two of the words have three syllables but if you put your finger on the words and sound them out slowly, you might get it. Can you actually debate anything, or is your purpose here just to take cheap shots at anyone who disagrees with you? Sigh ,,,men. I said what I had to say without trying to impress anyone. My original comment was apparent to anyone functional literacy .;..he did not understand the ramifications of the proposal. You and rush understood that, you just took the opportunity for your version of a cheap shot. Ironically, of the three of us, I was the only one addressing the issue ...unless, of course, you determined the issue was running to moderators like a snitching little sister.

My apologies. I honestly had no idea he could not dress and feed himself. Now I feel really bad. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

And yet, you manage to dress and feed yourself ...amazing. Nice PA... My bad. Let me translate that into something you might understand. Perhaps I should have said, 'You do not understand what is happening'. I realize two of the words have three syllables but if you put your finger on the words and sound them out slowly, you might get it. Can you actually debate anything, or is your purpose here just to take cheap shots at anyone who disagrees with you? Sigh ,,,men. I said what I had to say without trying to impress anyone. My original comment was apparent to anyone functional literacy .;..he did not understand the ramifications of the proposal. You and rush understood that, you just took the opportunity for your version of a cheap shot. Ironically, of the three of us, I was the only one addressing the issue ...unless, of course, you determined the issue was running to moderators like a snitching little sister.

And yet, you manage to dress and feed yourself ...amazing. Nice PA... My bad. Let me translate that into something you might understand. Perhaps I should have said, 'You do not understand what is happening'. I realize two of the words have three syllables but if you put your finger on the words and sound them out slowly, you might get it. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

And yet, you manage to dress and feed yourself ...amazing. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".