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Didnt Pynchon do a year or two in physics? If he believed that there are gravity waves, then they would have a spectrum which could be refracted and spread out into a "gravity rainbow." I want to generate gravity waves, invert them and use them to cancel Earth's gravity when I jump. Beats the hell out of a canopy. Sluggo, Georger, Snow, when can you start design work on my prototype? I still wonder how Cooper KNEW he could jump the 727. I didn't know that in 71 and I dont think many others did. Not even the NWA crew knew that. So we have Cooper armed with narrowly distributed 727 knowledge that has its roots in Boeing. How far removed from Boeing was Cooper? Did he work there? Did he know someone who did? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

"Gravity's Rainbow" My understanding of skydiving is that the primary interaction is with the field known as "gravity" I can't understand this fantasy that it's an interaction with air! :) Yeah Snow, the air stuff is just fluff. It's all gravity all the time. Gravity ALWAYS wins. We skydivers just try to make sure it isnt a shutout. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There was a LOT of stuff left by the USAF when we evacuated from Nam. A few years ago some enterprising merchant in Viet Nam was trying to market a huge supply of overhauled USAF C 130 engines left behind. They had no maintenance logbooks and because of that werent worth anywhere near his asking price, even though they were in sealed "cans" and probably in fine shape. Some fairly complete AD1 Skyraider aircraft were also offered. AFAIK, there wasnt a lot of military jumping done in Nam. Most troop insertions were done in helos. I actually know a Vietnamese paratrooper. He works as a barber in the US. I took his stories about military freefall jumps with a grain of salt until I saw photos later. He jumped from H 34 RVNAF helos. The freefall jumps were not combat jumps, but were part of his service, not some weekend sport thing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

so much for "Cooper had to be an engineer" Into every myth A little Snow must fall. Back to the Boeing drawing board. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

yes I meant Boeing 307. 337 was mistake. You can find anything Snow. Great to see the mighty Sluggo Monster back too! How is the money analysis coming Georger and Tom? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

B 17 used in Nam???? That would be amazing. A late friend who flew cargo swore he saw a Boeing 337 Stratoliner flying in Nam in the 60s. That was the airliner version of the early B 17 bomber design. I thought he was smoking something but it turned out he was right when photos surfaced much later. Hey, back to basics for a minute. I think Cooper had to be CERTAIN that a 727 could be jumped. How did he know in 71??? I jumped back then and was fascinated by aviation and jumping from new kinds of aircraft. Neither I or my friends knew you could jump from a 727. How did Cooper know? He bet his future on that information. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What year would you estimate would be the last year that it would be hard to find someone that had not jumped a Paracommander, ever? (edit) Said another way: last year you could find someone who had never jumped a Paracommander.. (edit) To make it more difficult, I've read that the new jumpers at jump clubs sometimes got the old gear, like 28' rounds. Assuming they are actively jumping every year. Assuming we're talking about both poor and non-poor jumpers. US would be one year. non-US another year. This estimate would provide a reasonable bounds for when someone who was a "jumper" "had" to be familiar with Pioneer gear. (I'm assuming Paracommander but we don't know. I don't know what range of Pioneer gear was around in '71. They did pilot emergency rigs, but we're told it was some kind of Pioneer Sport rig of unknown vintage, Type 226). So what are the two years? (edit) But there has already been hundreds of posts about Cooper's implied expertise based on gear selection. People "have" to have made an estimate in their minds. What is it? If no estimate was made...well.. (edit) Note I'm assuming correlation between "Pioneer sport rig" and Paracommander based on my weak understanding of the era. I may be missing a better correlation. (edit) Also: Cossey was 33 in '71? What year did he start jumping? See excerpt below from my jump memoirs proving that surplus gear was jumped well into the mid 70s, at least by me. Anyone who was at US DZs in the late 60s and later would have seen commercial sport gear (Pioneer, Security and others) but knowing it and owning it were separated by a lot of dollars. Surplus gear was dirt cheap. I paid $50 for my entire rig including a reserve in 1968. "Jumping was still a part of my life during many years of school. It was fun, cheap and just too hard to quit for an adrenaline junkie like me. One reason it stayed cheap was that I jumped "boat anchor" surplus parachute gear exclusively until about 1974. It worked. It was dirt cheap. I had grown accustomed to the brutal landings and knew how to roll with them. My main chute was a USAF 28 ft C9 jet ejection canopy made in 1952 and my reserve was a USN 26 ft conical made in 1956. The landings under that tired porous C9 were hard, really hard. At least it looked good. The canopy was bright orange and white with alternating panels. Although quite porous from the many jumps made prior to my ownership, it had no rips or patches and I was proud of it. I stuck with that gear until it was literally laughed at and hopelessly obsolete. I am pretty sure I was the last guy to jump a surplus round at Pope Valley DZ in CA. The PCs (PC=Paracommander, a commercial round canopy) had already come and gone. There I was in a sky full of square ram air canopies with my old surplus round C9. It was like a model T running in a NASCAR race. Fortune smiled on me and I lived long enough to get a good career going and eventually buy decent gear." 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks for the straightforward reply Tom! You did it just right, stopping short of adding a Jacobs ladder arc or Tesla coil and Theremin music. When I was a kid the ice cream truck man used to give us a chunk of dry ice if we bough a couple of popsicles. Instantly we became "scientists" bubbling CO2 fog up by dropping the dry ice in a cup of water. We had no idea what science really was, but we knew we were doing it. My theory, PURELY speculative, is that the money find story is bogus and the Dad lead the kid to the dig spot. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

yeah, I worked at Hughes Aircraft who made HUDs for fighters. Getting a see through head up display focused at infinity takes holograms, at least it did back then. $$$$$$. Is the Rockwell HUD see through or opaque? Wasn't Alti-2 working on a HUD for skydivers? I think it might have been used in one of the huge ways in Thailand. I think it just displayed altitude. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

http://www.rockwellcollins.com/news/page10360.html just the thing for demos edit: looks like its already been discussed on dropzone.com. anyhow, wonder when this will trickle down to something affordable? 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

fixed link, I think. I was just like one of those kids when I watched my first skydivers at Calistoga CA in about 1961. Obviously the fascination stuck. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

http://www.dailyillini.com/media/storage/paper736/news/2006/07/28/News/Free-Falling-2134932.shtml 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

all Snow all the time... Snow, surely if you know the term street cred, OG is familiar to you as well. If you are a true OG, and few here would dispute that you are, then you have permanent exhalted street cred, kinda like street tenure. The young kids commit brash in your face Quade felonies seeking street approval, but you are beyond that now. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Come on folks, dont play it so safe. Speculation is what we do best here on the DB C forum. So what will TK's test results imply???? my guess: the kids did find the money but they were subtly lead to the spot by the Dad who put it there. That find story always struck me as fishy and waaaay too improbable. Welcome Tom Kaye! Glad to have you aboard. Ckret, looks like your innovative web based citizen-agency collaborative investigation model is bearing some fruit. Very cool, whether it solves the case or not. Georger and Sluggo, you guys rock. Don't count Snowmman out. He has not been idle, just kind of quiet. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

uhhh, would that include Ckret? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks to Georger, Sluggo and the rest of you citizen sleuths. WOW!!! Very cool! I am really proud of you guys. The tease is killing me. What is Kaye saying? Did the people who found the money lie about where they found it? Am I the only one who thinks Ckret has some resemblance in delivery style and appearance to motivational speaker/huckster Tony Robbins? Not like they are identical twins, but a resemblance. Ckret definitely has a future in Hollywood if he cares to pursue it. Georger, you weren't mentioned by name (perhaps by choice) but your contribution was HUGE. Sluggo, you are the only person I have ever seen on TV being credited for correcting an FBI investigative error. I want to be your agent. I am not gonna stay home while all you celebs are running around Hollywood in limos, living large and hanging with the stars. This news story and video sure made my morning. Carry on gentlemen. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

BuzzardNest, Hey, the more exposure the case gets the more likely that someone previously silent or uninvolved will decide to come forward with some real evidence. There is no such thing as bad publicity on a cold case. All publicity is good. We are feeding on ourselves here, we need fresh meat. Face it, Ckret, due to his FBI credentials, will have way more mainstream credibility and interest than any of us could possibly hope for. It is only natural that he will be sought out by the media on matters regarding Cooper. I don't see him quitting his day job just yet. The Hollywood stuff is just part of his FBI Cooper job at the moment. Actually, Ckret is far less of a media hound than other FBI agents assigned to high profile cases. Remember the Patty Hearst/SLA case? You couldn't turn on your TV in the evening from the kidnapping in Feb 74 to her capture in Sept 75 and far beyond without seeing Charles Bates, head of the SF FBI office on your TV screen as a talking head. There was even a docudrama about the case as seen through his eyes starring Dennis Weaver as Bates. Bates rode the Patty Hearst case long after her capture, trial and conviction. Defense lawyers jokingly referred to him as SAC Hearst. Although I join in the kidding about Ckret going Hollywood on us, actually it is a good thing for the case. We are only a few dozen obscure people on this specialized low publicity forum. National TV exposure will bring Cooper to the attention of millions. If only one of those millions of viewers comes forward with some useful evidence it is worth it. Until I see photos of Ckret hanging with Brad Angelina or Paris, I am going to cut him some slack on this media stuff. I won't stop kidding him or asking him to put me on the A list for the clubs where the stars hang out. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am going for non jumper, and if he was a non jumper he'd be unlikely to risk freefall, too scary and unknown. He'd want a hop and pop which is exactly the WRONG thing to do from a jet or any aircraft at high exit speeds, especially with an unsleeved canopy with nothing to slow down deployment. KAPOW! A C 9 is an absolute BRICK of a canopy and would not shred if it was in good shape. Someone will have to work out the forces, but if skydivers have accidental deployments in head down jumps that result in detached aortas (even with sliders on their canopies), I bet an unsleeved C 9 opening right off the stairs could have been fatal to Cooper. I do think if Cooper waited until he slowed down to terminal and managed to pull, he could live even if a novice. I just think it is unlikely that a novice would risk freefall if he could avoid it. He might not even think about opening shock being a big risk. On the other hand, Cooper did ask for certain airspeeds and flap configurations which assured operation well below normal 727 cruise speeds, which does indicate a concern, but the concern may have been focused on whether the stairs could stay deployed rather than opening shock issues. All pure speculation, but in the absence of facts it is the only game in town. I am really jealous of the Hollywood thing. I bet they get to meet Paris Hilton and all that. My Russian girlfriend who will be flying in next week looks EXACTLY like Paris. If you looked at the picture she emailed me you couldnt tell them apart. She even is posing with the exact same movie stars and wearing the same dress as Paris. I didn't know those stars travelled to Vladivostok. She sure was lucky to get her picture taken with them while they were in town. I sent Linda packing with a prepaid cab ride to Snowmman's digs. I told his wife that Linda was an exchange student and not to be overly concerned if they exchanged anything. Snow, if she proves to much for you, send her on to Georger, OK? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Like beating a dead horse and having it win the Kentucky Derby? BTW, Galen's book won't come out until Spring, according to the author himself. If it isn't on Oprah or Letterman or Leno, it isn't significant. I don't think Jo is on their guest lists just yet. Been thinking more about the jump. Assume Cooper was not a jumper. He'd probably leave the step with his hand or even both hands on the ripcord handle and pull as soon as he jumped, before slowing down to terminal velocity, which is the wrong thing to do, especially with an unsleeved C 9 canopy. The C 9 is tough as hell (made for jet ejections, but those systems used seat drogues and other decelerators or delay timers) and wont fail, but you will get a truly horrendous body busting opening shock. Skydivers have had their aortas detach from slammer openings. You land dead. Have we looked into whether that might have happened to Cooper? If he went into the river dead, the chute could easily snag on something firmly affixed to the bottom that would prevent the harnessed body from being washed downstream. Nylon takes a long time to fail in the absence of UV. Silt could bury the snagged body and gear. After a while, the money container might disintegrate or open and allow some bills to get washed away... What about the fatal opening shock possibility? not directly on point but interesting: http://www.butlerparachutes.com/pia99.htm 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yes, but for reasons that I probably shouldn't post here what a tease! 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hey, would one of you nominate me for the Nobel Peace prize? Hell, If the kilowatt hypocrite Al Gore can win one... surely the man who gets Ckret and Snowmman to coexist in peace (even temporarily) deserves one too. Remember that song Night Shift? I always liked it, being a big Jackie Wilson fan (Jackie is commemorated in the song along with Marvin Gaye). http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/nightshi.htm Can someone adapt the lyrics to celebrate the night clerk? 377 we are all night clerks to someone 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I don't think you're an ass, I just think, as we all need to at times, you need to step away from the computer for ten minutes before sending some of you're posts. It's not the content, the content is awsome. It's not whether you agree or disagree, I'd rather you disagree, it's the tone. Come on Snowmman, thats as much of an olive branch as I have ever seen from the FBI. Peace? And Georger, please watch the venom with Jo. Quade lurks and I REALLY don't want you or Snow banned. This place would really suck if either of you were banned. We need more Sluggo, now. 377 we are all night clerks to someone. 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Damn, now I know what Linda has been doing on her new laptop. She always clicks to eBay jewelry when I approach, but I had my suspicions. I am going to the INS tomorrow and canceling that treacherous girl's fiance visa. She's all yours Snow. I'll even ship you her 56 unopened boxes of shoes. There is a beautiful Russian girl emailing me who is 18 and craves guys over 60. I can tell she is sincere. She just needs a few thousand for immigration papers and an airline ticket which I will send Monday via Western Union. I know we will be happy. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Indeed! Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The night clerk knows. Were I a superhero, my Clark Kent Bruce Wayne "day job" would be night clerk. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Mine are B 12 size. Sorry no photos. Wouldn't be too hard to tie the snaps to the webbing with parachute cord. All the belly reserves I jumped had the same small snaps. Once snapped to the reserve D rings on the main harness there wasn't much room left in the snap which tell you how small they were. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.