377

Good point Snow. Might have been enough to keep a guy going for a long long time over there, even accounting for the lost portion found by Ingram. Too bad Cooper couldn't have saved some crisp 20s and set up an untraceable way to auction them off much later for his retirement. Nahh, I guess it wouldn't work. Didn't the insurance company own the twenties after paying the claim? Do you see any ramp extending out of the 727 during the drop tests? Looks to me like the stairs were removed and the interior ventral passage aft of the door was lined with sheet metal making a "ramp". That way nothing had to be deployed into the slipstream making things much simpler. That's exactly how the Perris DC 9 is configured for jumping. Wonder who the guy is sliding down the ramp in the ground shots? Military? Civilian? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

As for the 727 airdrop/jump capabilities never being used outside of the Takli tests... MAYBE. I know for a fact that prototype electronics stuff was used on operational missions in Nam, but the official story is that they were never deployed in combat. The above anecdote proves zero about the 727 jump capability, but it is hard to believe such an expensive and capable system wasnt used operationally. Someone developed it for a reason, not on spec. It was expensive, it worked and it filled a gap in aircraft capability. How believable is it that it was mothballed? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Ah, OK. But this was never posted on this site, am I right? I haven't seen discussions on this. It has led me to add another angle to Orange's Pet Theory though. Staying with loadmaster/kicker (or possibly extending to military jumper without own gear), we lose the Canada angle (accent doesn't work) and focus on someone stationed in Asia who was home on leave for the hijacking. This gives us someone who had no door fear, could have jumped (if accidentally) before, chose the NB6 cos he was familiar with it, knew the 727 could be jumped (following 377's logic) , and wasn't found in the US because he wasn't there anymore. Have I left anything critical out of my profile? Question for vets: I'm betting dollars were happily accepted in SE Asia around the time of the vietnam war? ("negotiable currency"). Those dollars could have been circulating in Asia for years. I'd have to assume that the Ingram find represented a wad that got lost in the jump, assuming the jumper survived. Still have to take the possibility he bounced. In this case: He wasn't missed at home because he was expected to be in Asia, when he didn't return for duty it was assumed he was AWOL or in Canada as many others were? How long would it have taken before he was really missed under these circumstances? Is it not true that there were a number of soldiers who just went missing in Asia and he might have been assumed by his family to be one of those? Really like your thinking here Orange, probably because it aligns with mine ;-). Even a skydiver with no military experience might have chosen the NB6 if he knew about the Air America 727 jumps. Most skydiving chutes were rated for 150 mph max deployment speed. Military chutes did not have this speed limitation and skydivers from that era all knew it. I used to think a skydiver would have chosen the Pioneer sport rig, but the Air America jumps changed my thinking on that. You'd pick the rig that most closely duplicated those used on known successful jumps from a 727. Why risk canopy damage if you are going to pull right off the steps (the least risky technique since you wouldn't have to deal with freefall stability issues at night). Go with the strong canopy. The risk of a malfunction is tiny, so ignore the reserve issue. SE Asia domicile with a quick trip in and out of the US makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't be missed either place. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

and to the Duanites too! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, Are you sure about this? Aside from the federal Stolen Valor Act criminalizing false claims of military service and awards, I am unaware of any law dictating who can wear these undefined "chevrons" on their sleeve. Could be a choir or band uniform or even a hotel doorman's uniform. Why pick such an exotic and heroic explanation when the most likely one is mundane? And Jo, you really should give Sluggo a green light to post the scans. When you try to control the flow of information it just makes it appear that you wish to suppress evidence that argues against your Duane is Cooper theory. Let someone besides you interpret the evidence you claim to have. Let go a bit and see where unobstructed peer review takes things. Scientists do it all the time with the results of their research . You should too... otherwise you are making the classic cold fusion mistake. Of all the folks on this forum, Sluggo is the man on anything claiming neutron emission. He would have questioned Pons' and Fleischman's wishful thinking research results immediately had they run the "evidence" by him first. You might not like his conclusions on your Duane evidence but at least let him make them. Give Sluggo some leash Jo, and stop kicking him. What are you thinking? You are already short on friends here. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Again I hope I am not repeating anything Snow said - I did relook at his posts and don't think this is a repeat - some more details. From this site: http://actionnooz.com/videos/b727/page4.html With the video of the test drops, some info - below. Again, bold is my emphasis. (I should note that due to bandwidth issues I have not watched the video, so all the below was news to me.) *** This snippet is from the CIA/Air America film "Flying Men, Flying Machines" produced circa '70/'71. The air drop tests were likely done at the CIA/Air America facilities at the Takhli Royal Thai Air Force Base in Thailand.The palletized air drops used a modified 727 interior. The ventral stairs are apparently removed and replaced with a ramp the two jumpers slide down. The jumpers use static lines. It is unclear what flight configuration is used, so the exit speed is undetermined. The film makes a point of saying the plane can be pressurized, and unpressurized for the drop. This means the aft door would work normally, and be openable in flight after depressurization.Full video (87 minutes) in a variety of formats, available for free download at http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/AirAmerica/FMFM/index.htm According to available research, the system, while tested, was never used in an actual mission.Unless you count Flight 305. So we have: - a probable location of the test drops (helps narrow down who might have known about them?) - information that the plane did not need to be unpressurized the whole way. Did Cooper not know this? Or did he figure trying to convince the pilots that they could do this would be too difficult? - we don't know from the video what the config or speed was, but Cooper knew what he wanted. (apparently - ref the debate about whether he actually asked for 15 deg flaps or the pilots just concluded that from what he asked them) - information that the stairs themselves were actually not there for the tests (those of you who have watched the video will have figured this out I presume). IF Cooper knew about these tests, how would he have known the stairs could be lowered in flight? Would he have assumed that because the ramp could? Or couldn't he be sure and that is why he wanted them down on take-off. Or... [trumpets sound] maybe he battled to get the stairs down because he had worked with a ramp not stairs?? - apparent information that following the test drops, Cooper was the only time the 727's drop ability was put to practical use. The tests were done 70-71... great timing? Did the Feds ever look for paratroopers/airborne etc who happened to be home inbetween tours of duty in Asia at the time the hijacking took place? {Where, o where is Major Major Ckret??} Edit: if someone was career stationed in Asia this would also be a reason no-one would miss him at home? Great post Orange. Although it's not entirely clear, looks to me like nothing extends from the Air America 727 during the drops. I think the "ramp" is internal, not something that was lowered like the stairs. When I jumped the Perris DC 9-21, they had a similar setup where the ramp was 100% inside the confines of the fuselage with nothing extending out like ventral stairs would. Now I'd REALLY like to know the details of the Boeing tests. Were they ramp tests with the stairs removed or did they lower the stairs in flight? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Indeed I do Snow. There were all kinds of prototype highly advanced things (i.e. trail surveillance and night vision) being field tested in Nam. Old timers where I worked had some amazing tales, including presence of civilian tech reps on dangerous military missions. Some of the stuff tested was very far ahead of the gear that was in the standard military inventory, one off prototype items. Moisture and jungle fungus were big enemies of electronics. You couldn't be assured something that worked in CA would stay operational in Nam. Seemed like nothing stayed secret over there for very long. We had one classified high performance helicopter thermal imaging system that was tested in Nam. In a few weeks everyone stateside in that technical field knew about it regardless of who they worked for. If Cooper was a jumper and was in Nam during or after those Air America 727 jumps, I'll bet he knew about them, even if he was working as a cook. Orange is right about massive conspiracy theories. Secrets just cannot stay secret when more than a couple of people are involved. Word gets out. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

That explains our failure to ID Cooper. We have been looking in the wrong dimension. Damn, shoulda known that. Not the first time. That's where all our missing socks go. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

My first instructor, Perry Stevens, made a tandem rig for himself and his dachshund back in 68. That dog LOVED to jump and would get all excited when he would pick up the special rig. Snow, don't sulk. I liked your USPA/PCA data. I think it helps define the possible size of the Cooper universe. I think it is highly unlikely that the NWA 727 was Cooper's first jump. If you filter for local knowledge, 727 jumpability knowledge, age and appearance I think you are down to a couple of hundred jumpers in the pool, maybe fewer. What's up with Jo's new avatar? Is this the uniformed guy that Duane insisted she covertly photograph? Looks a lot like Lee Harvey Oswald doesn't he? Was the Jack Ruby hit faked? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Take a deep breath everyone, let's end 2008 in peace not rancor. 377 Rodney King to the DB Cooper forum 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Snow has an excellent point. Anyone who says that publication of anything (other than classifed info) is being suppressed is dreaming. Anyone can publish on the web and get a potentially huge audience IF the publication has merit or appeal (either will suffice). There are many sites that give you a few gigs FREE, plenty of room for self publishing many hundreds of pages of text. Go for it Jo! You seem to have no trouble clearly expressing yourself in writing. You can do it yourself or hire someone to transcribe what you dictate orally. DRAGON voice recognition software works surprisingly well if you have a good microphone, quiet environment and spend a few hours teaching it about your speech (very easy to do). You speak, it types. $149.00 http://www.nuance.com/talk/ 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, The fear you and other individuals have about lawuits related to something you might reveal here is unrealistic. Contingency lawyers take these cases but only when they are against publishing companies that have big liability insurance policies. A plaintiff could search all month long and not find a lawyer who would take a case against an individual like you on a contingency fee basis. Besides, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove economic damages. How much do you think I could collect if you published your opinion that I was DB Cooper or a criminal? Not enough to be worth the time to file a suit, I assure you. Don't use lawsuit fears as an excuse. Truth is a defense against defamation cases. Your constant teasing and holding back allegedly probative evidence just debits your credibility account here. You are already below the minimum balance requirements in some eyes. Sluggo stuck his neck out for you and is one of the few here who think Duane might have any link to Cooper, even if only as a searcher. I think you should let him post what he has. Daylight is the enemy of falsehoods and the friend of truth. Let the sunshine in Jo. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Wouldn't be the first time a law enforcement agency took credit for a find that they had little to do with. Was it ever confirmed that the Cooper 727 landed without the door placard? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

There are some clues in the syntax, but they are of little use unless we can correlate them to a suspect who used similar sentence structure and word choices. "Miss" polite, a salutation not needed in the note. "Come" could have said "please" or just "sit by me." "By" most people would say "sit next to" not "sit by." Are there any regional clues in "come sit by me?" 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo wrote: Jo, You could flip that logic and simply assume that Duane was not Cooper until you have solid proof that he was. That would go a LONG way towards unruffling feathers on this forum. Regardless, I welcome your participation here and hope you have a joyous holiday. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, How about a Christmas present to the forum? Give Sluggo a green light to publish his scans of your material. Just trust his judgement and don't try to control every aspect. He obviously has your best interests at heart. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Depends on how you define waste Orange. Sometimes unfinished urgent personal business gives older people a reason to get up every morning and charge ahead. That has some value. Jo sincerely believes her theories and they cause little harm or bother to us. Sometimes we act a bit unkind to her, but it's Christmas time so let's cut everyone, including Jo, a little extra slack. I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange? Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. We have a lot to look foreward to in 2009 including the National Geographic DB Cooper special. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

The 2016s are a good match Snow, but they have that Ray Ban logo on the side that would have been noted. Maybe he bought some cheap knockoffs. Isn't there a rock song about that? I think it is called "cheap sunglasses." Wish Flo or Tina had noted whether they appeared to have Rx lenses. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I tried that once Snow, not Oakley Razors but Black Fly's most aggressive sunglasses which were given to me by a friend in the trade. My daughter (then 11) said "Dad, puh-leeeeze, wear some age appropriate shades. Those are embarassing." Maybe Coop was in a mid life crisis. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Done properly in light winds with a lightly loaded canopy (about a pound per square foot), landings are like jumping off a chair or better. Nobody has 100% perfect landings though so if you have injured knees you need to be very conservative. As far as having to run out your landings, that wont be much of a problem if you jump in very light winds with a big canopy. I am not an instructor or an orthopedic doctor. You should get some expert advice from both. I do know that some people with serious knee injuries jump regularly without problems, so it can be done. You just need good training and a conservative approach to jumping. Good luck. It is a great sport. Mark 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I still wonder if Cooper looked much like the sketch. The part that says yes is that several eyewitnesses concurred. The part that says maybe not (to me at least) is the long history of unreliable eyewitness testimony. I saw many cases where the police sketch looked very little like the guy who was proven (through fingerprints) to be the real culprit. We are putting so much value on the sketch and it may have little resemblance to Cooper. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Absolutely. Extremely good point. These guys are like one big country club. Everybody talks to evryone eventually, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING PROPRIETARY and still they talk to each other at all kinds of levels. Only during bidding wars does communication get shut down. And it goes far beyond the major companies and includes suppliers and subsidiaries. IT EVEN INVOLVES VENDORS supplying the DOD - it must! They must ALL be on the same page sooner or later. It crosses the services (Air Force, Navy, Army, Marines...). These people are ALL in the same business. Their concerns are mutual, inevitably. (There are as many experts on an aircraft at Rockwell-Collins as there are at the manufacturers like Boeing... these people move back and forth between companies on a regular basis). This is one of the reasons I dont see Cooper as a member of the aviation industry. Somebody would have known him, missed him, and talked. And Cooper himself would have used his knowledge and been far more efficient at his caper. You cannot hide what you know, inevitably - or what you dont know! Georger Georger is right on this, I figure he must have worked in aerospace. When I did, the amount of info that flowed back and forth even between competitors was amazing. It wasn't official always, more word of mouth. One place I worked made HUDs (head up displays) for military aircraft. Given their complexity (holographic projection etc), very high cost and difficulty to manufacture, our guys were astounded to hear that a competitor was making them for Alaska Air 727s. It wasn't more than a few weeks before we had all the technical details. We made nothing for airliners and had no real need to know. It was just intense curiosity among rivals and a well developed tech gossip network. I wouldn't be surprised if soon after the Air America 727 drop tests were done, the Douglas engineers were wondering if the same thing could be done with their DC 9s which also have ventral doors and stairs. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I wonder if Cooper commanded the lights out to make it hard for chase planes to get a good visual contact. Do we know if the 727 extinguished its strobes and nav lights? The info from Boeing given to NWA makes a lot more sense now that we know about the Air America tests. They had info on box drops and (described as a 'deal') info on dropping parachutists. The FBI must have done some Boeing engineering liaison as a part of their sled test and should have learned about the Air America work. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Good ideas Orange but I differ on Canadian. The only Canadians with big grudges have thick French accents. That rules out Canada ;-). I think the olive complexion was a tan, which also argues against Canada. Think sunny, far from the US, few US people living there, not frequent back and forth traffic by expats (like you'd have in Baja Mexico). I doubt that the FBI looked far abroad and that may have benefited Cooper big time. The Dan Cooper comic angle is intriguing. Coincidence? Sure, it might be. France, Canada, Viet Nam and some former French colonies in Africa are where you might expect to find a copy. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Sure looks like you found it... looks like an early model DC 8? Older engines and nose gills. Nice going Snow! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.