NWPoul

Over the ground, no. In relation to the plane you just jumped out of, yes, the throw will be the same. Isn't ground seperation the overall goal? It's depend on what is your consern:) If your consern is spot - than yes, ground distanse and groun speed you should taking into account If your consern is the horisontal separation between the groups of skydivers (collision on deployment) - than air distanse and airspeed does matter Why we should take extra time between exiting groups in high wing/low groundspeed jumprun? Becouse we can! Becouse usually you want both of safety on deployment time and not so far spot - you have to find compromise between amount of delay and distance covered by plane under the ground... when wind is high and groundspeed is low you just have oportunity to give more delay and get more separation between skydivers at deployment altitude for the same spot Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Over the ground, no. In relation to the plane you just jumped out of, yes, the throw will be the same. more imprtant that it will be the same in rekation to the groups of skidivers This is exactly my consern regarding Mr. Kallend's "3 sec" In given in Mr Kallens simulation conditions (wind shift) my graphics will be the same as Mr. Kallends coz it's based on simple calculation... may be I put some difference in very begining (those throw effect) but it's minor difference Dave Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Yep, but throw not affected by any wind, it's only matter of airspeed and specific of your body and the way as you present it to the relative air flow)) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

It's depend on what you want to say:) If you want to say that just wind cause any drift of one group frefallers relative to other - you are simple wrong (ask Mr. Kallend, hope his words make much more sence for you than mine:) ) I can draw a simple pics that could help you to understand the physics if you wish:) If you want to say that this drift occurs when jumping in windy condition - you right but the reason is the wind shifting. We know and anderstand and use this order... may be even a little bit better than you;) Coz we are anderstand and taking into account conditions when it work and when it don't work (also prooven by practice) :) When smoking - wing does matter;) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

After deployment, the drift becomes a wash as canopies will all drift the same, regardless of the type of freefall. Of course, there are different speed canopies, but they are all 'steerable' so the point is moot with regards to after opening. Provided that all jumpers break off at 4000ft and pull at 2500ft, you could almost call it an even race from break off on down. Ignoring the higher speed of freeflyers entering the break-off, you can expect similar amounts of drift for all jumpers from break off on down. The freefall portion, from exit to break off is where the differences are real, and they do occur. The freelfyers will spend less time going from exit to 4000ft, and as a function of that, will drift less than the RW jumper who spends more time in freefall between exit and 4000ft. You miss the point too, you say that th FF spend less time in freefall so he will drift less by the wind, but after deployement he will be still same affected by the wind at the same amuont of time wich he was less falling and therefore will drift horisontally the same way untill the RW came to deployment altitude... the fact tha canopy is stereble means only that you shouldn fly in derection of Jumprun (but even flying this way you are still affected by wind) the same as you should not tracking this way - it's regardless of wind and exit order Once again, it is quite simple - if the wind is steady and constant, you in the sky cannot determinate if there a wind or not without groung reference... Say if you jump with groung covered by clouds you cannot determinate if there a wind using as referencr your canopy or any other skydiver i.e. the wind does not affected on distance between you and other jumper Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Are you aware that the vertical speed is only being considered on the basis that it makes for a shorter freefall?I am ansvered on Mr.Kallend's "Even in no-wind conditions, fast fallers get more forward throw from the speed of the plane" ***Nobody is saying that a person falling at a higher speed will also drift horizontally faster than a slow faller. If the freefall drift is 5 feet per second, that rate applies to both RW and freeliers. Rw jumpers will drift for 60 seconds, and freefliers will only drift for 45 seconds. The RW guys will drift 300ft, and the freefliers will only drift 225ft. The FF still be affected by the wind after deployment so He will drift the same 60 sec as RW flyer falls (+exit delay) It is simple - if the wind is steady and constant, you in the sky cannot determinate if there a wind or not without groung reference... Say if you jump with groung covered by clouds you cannot determinate if there a wind using as referencr your canopy or any other skydiver (if he havent groung reference too) i.e. the winw does not affected on distance between you and other jumper Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Again, I refer to wind shifting (which made the difference) and steady constant wind (which does not impact on H separation) Your examples about non constant wind or low altitude to both FF and LF object to accelerate to horisontal speed of air from the fan And one fan in your examples - is equivalent to the initial speed from the plane, not wind And crumpled paper vs non crumpled - is a bad example because they are differ not only in vertical freefall speed but has significant difference in weight/area ratio in general (i.e. has difference in reaction to horisontal component of wind) which not similar to FF and RW (FF usually has even more surface area in vertical crossection than Rw i.e. has more surface exposed to the H component of wind than RW:) ) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

For separation at deployment time (amticollision wise) the fast fallers exposed to the wind the same time as slowfallers (if FF doesn't fly to the derection of jumprun before the next group start opening) This coused by wind shifting! not the wind itself! But yes the strong upper wind often means significant shifting Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

How can it be caused only by vertical speed (fall speed) in case if there enough altitude for both fast and slow fallers to arrest the forward speed from the plane? Or you mean tha typical FF present less surface area to horisontal relative vind than tipycal RW? Possible, but 3 sec equivalent? You mean that if RW flyer will exit after 3 sec from FF than he overhand FFlyer after 10-12 sec (arresting of forward speed)? Exactly for this reason I talk about significant wind shift wich can be even if there no wind at ground, but at least here the enough wind shiftig (leading to noticed freefall drift of RW to FF group) is quite rare, So at our DZ we stoped playing blindly with "modern exit order" cos if there no shift it gives nothing to horisontal separation but provoke mess at landing pattern When wind is strong or pilots detect significant wind shift - the modern order is applyed... But for some reason they (DZ) continue throw the big (10+) formation first regardless of wind shift (just because the formation organisers likes to land first and be the first at door) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

I'm not sure how you figure that. In no winds, all jumpers will fall straight down (more or less). When you introduce wind, jumpers being to drift. The two factors effecting how far they will drift are the speed of the winds, and the time exposed to those winds. All jumpers will experience the same speed of the winds, but not all jumpers will have the same exposure to those winds, that depends on the length of freefall. This is where the slower speeds of RW equates to more drift as a result of longer exposure to those winds. Wind - is the moving relative to the earth air mass So in case of steady constant wind the object in freefall don't know about wind, until they refer to earth... Yes, there will be drift but drift of skydivers relative to the earth not to each other, and as far as for skydivers at deployment time the distance between the groups of them has matter, not from DZ (from safety and collision point of view) steady constant wind does not matter Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

So what you're suggesting is that we trade a crowded pattern entry for possible freefall/canopy collisions? It seems to me that jumpers have a far greater measure of control when all parties are under an open canopy as opposed to when one is in freefall and the other under canopy. No) I suggest to wise emplementation of any method tacking into account their pros and cons and the basics of their work instead of dumb "this modern methods is right! you RW now go first" (wich I saw once when the jump run was downwind!) I suggest to get both horisontal (which by all means the most important) and vertical separation This is where you're wrong, no wind shift is required. Among jumpers falling at the same speed, the wind does have a 'net zero' effect, as they are all effected the same. When you have jumpers falling at two different speeds, the increased time exposed to the winds is what makes the difference between RW and freeflyers. There is no differents as soon as both of them have enough frefall time to equal thier horisontal speed with air (ok a little difference can be during the defferense of slowdown Horisontal speed for RW anf FF but its quite minor compared to the exit separation) cos in case of steady wind you can consider them falling at no wind... The famous computer simulation showed the pros of "slow - first" method also operate with wind shift no wind situation = steady wind situation... even for a strong wind, but usually the strong wind has significant wind shift at altitude I am not refer/defend the vertical separation! The horisontal separation is the key for safety! I talk that improper use of "slow-first" method takes your vertical separation (as additional comfort) and crowd the landing area at landig time but does not give you any positive There is no (at least at this side if planet) any significant overlapping of RW over FF without significant wind shift (if only FF does not fly thier canopies full flight upwind to DZ just after deployment) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

What's wrong with opening at the same time/altittude? Soemtimes I'm in the first group of freeflyers after the RW groups, and I open before the group before me (not by much, but before). Always with plenty of horizontal seperation, but sometimes before. Given the figures qupted above, 15 seconds would equal 1875 ft of seperation. Even if you figure that a jumper from each group could track 400ft up or down jumprun, they would still be openiing over 1000ft from each other. Yes we opened at good distance beetwen us, but than come to the LZ (I don't talk about small area close to packing hangar... just area where landing pattern should start) at the same time from different direction and it's came pretty crovded This is exactly what I am talking about this upper wind exposure and drift theory sounds pretty smart (and famous computer simulation quite spectacular) and the order "slow - first" sounds pretty smart and correct too... but in real word (at least at my earth semisphere)) ) this theory start work only when the upper wind is quite strong (and there is a wind shift) becouse without wind shift there simlpe no wind both for slow and fast fallers) I just talk about what I see (left alone physics, which says that there now wind for object in the sky, until the wind is steady and object does not active flying relative to earth) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Yep! This is exatctly what I mean H-mm but i usually works, when FF comes first than canopies are distributed by altitude and all load landing in order (if there no spiraling monkeys) No I refer only to that "Slow exit first, fastest exit after" and "wind drift/overlay" stuff Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

When there are wind shift (i.e. strong wind) I am tired of this "modern and correct" method when it applyed as default at any circumstances=/ Without a significant wind shift midair this method just doesn't work and all what we get - opening the 15 way formation (exit first) and FF (exit after 15-17 sec delay at the same time at same altitude=/ Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

BTW You can change the glide angle;) For example a "ground hangry" Velocity can be flatten by rears and get you back to DZ from a long spot quite well Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Beside given advises I had cut off some exessive material folded and sewed (and which has sharp rigid melted edges) inside the keeper's channel. The stowing became much smoother and no more frying)) Also, due to a lot of slack on my steering lines I use the combined stowing method first - pass the slack thruogh the softlink and stowe it in lower elastik keeper. So there no lines around the riser and no interfere with slider at all when it pass behind the haed Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Was it approved by Airtek? Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

What about reserve closing loop? Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Weird canopy colors... as well as suit/helmet Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

The answer is - not always, the well accelerated Velo quite often pull the slider off the skytie (at least those skyties which were tested by us here) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Wery kind and friendly people (came only with license to country bus-station, was quickly transfered to a DZ, provided with brief and rig, and loaded to the plane)) Quite spacy and well organized landing area Clean and neat facility Twin otter was fast and comfortable)

But if you need more accuracy (+/- 10 feet)... If you need that degree of accuracy, then you must be really low to the ground, and doing something very dangerous. In that case, you shouldn't be distracted by looking at your altimeter - you should be using your eyeballs to judge your height to save your ass. When I really low I use my balls to judge height)) Exactly because I need ~that accuracy fairly high (were it's more difficult to eyeballs): To calibate eyeballs To know my canopy (losing altitude during various input) uphigh To consistant turns from consistant initiation point I prefer the digit one Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

But if you need more accuracy (+/- 10 feet)... Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Is there any documented case, when properly made slider keeper (i.e. such skytie or a half of locking stow sewn on a slider) caused trubles during cutaway?? Slocks could be good but they didn't work as I want to 1. I am not just put my slider behind, I twisted them few times so that he became more compact, "hears" don't inflate and don't disturb my view site)) 2. Slider pulled further behind the head Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

Try the soft (neck?) cord from a flashdrive or for a cell phone or some kind of that... they a soft (dont hurt your palms) can be cutted to whatever length you want, not needed to have skew ends (and allied them before pull through the grommets) and easy to find:) Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?