Scoop

I thought it was such a polite society *stirs the shit*

Don't worry, I'm not going there! We done that one enough I think!

Its Rugby, but not as we know it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvFV_KxwhPc

Lucky, can you confirm where your from please. Might help clear some legal confusions I'm having

Wow... this takes post whoring to a whole new level What is this good faith exception? Is that basically if the officers believe what they did was reasonable and neccesary and the courts agree then its OK?

They are right, the bruised thigh fetish club are out there in their millions just itching to get hold of pictures like this to strum off too I would have thought they'd be more worried about the 15 year old girls who obviously lie about their age to get full privelages and practically whore themselves out with their photos. Now that concerns me

With regards to executing the warrant, yeah I'd agree to you, but with regardings to her shooting through her front door like a loon her bullets don't hurt any less because shes old and senile. Officers on the ground did the right thing I believe. I agree wiith whoever said the error was higher up Intel)

Just remember that people never have carried hanguns on them in this country. So the guns being gone doesn't mean they were taken off them. No-one has ever had a firearm legally in their posession for self defence. You do realise that right? I'd be interested to know how some of you obvioussly very pro gun people felt if you've ever stayed in the UK for a while. Did you feel intimidated or scared?

You know people dress up as police officers and pretend to be them to take advantage of people too. Maybe you should shoot anyone in a police uniform, because you never know. Also while your at it, dress everyone whos dressed in Muslim style clothing, because some of them are suicide bombers. This kind of proves the point I made in the 'stop the guns' thread. People are so happy to shoot first and ask questions later that stupid unneccesary stuff like this happens. Regarding lying cops I can honestly say that during the 3 years I been in, I have never been with a colleague who has lied about an event or asked me to lie to cover their actions. Nor have I ever needed to lie. People are dumb enough to get themselves in trouble without any of us needing to lie about it. Just remember that people that are caught out by the police often feel agrieved and bizarrely, tell people a slight variation of what really happened when they recall an event

.... and disproved by people who shoot or stab others THEN take their money when they rob them. They don't bother with threatening people because that gives someone the opportunity to defend themselves. EDIT: Are all these conviceted felons also from the same polite society thats crime free?

I've served warrants where we've been held up gaining access and you can just hear the toilet repeatedly flushing and all the drugs going away. Who came up with the 20 second bullshit? You might as well say "Hi, its the police, in a moment we're going to come in so if you'd like to destroy all evidence and arm yourself that'd be super" *BANG* By the way over here if you do put someones door in and don't find anything, the police have to pay for the repairs. Sounds like botched intelligence job or possibly someones moved recently. Believe it or not criminals like to make it hard to track them down and frequently move house so conducting warrants to find who your after isn't there anymore is quite common. EDIT: Re-reading shows she lived there a long time.

Very constructive post there As stated in above post the people have spoken and the answer is they dont want them. You make it sound like the goverment is oppressing their citizens. The majority of citizens dont want firearms so the bans will remain in place. Is it really that hard to understand? Its nothing to do with 'knowing whats best for everyone else'

I thought the simple video of kids with hanguns on the streets who obviously aren't responsible would encourage support for its cause. Obviously not. You favour kids with guns, I can see that now. John you do realise this isn't a game right? If you have time to stand and shoot at somone driving at you then you have time to get out the way, which would be my instinctive reaction.. The guy that shot a potential burglar (or window cleaner) without issuing in a challenge is in my mind reckless and should be prosecuted. "Go away or I'll shoot" - Its not hard is it... really. But then its your godamn right to take someones life if they fart in your direction, right? What kind of nutter sits with their rifle beside them anyway? Maybe one day you'll land off, some farmhouse somewhere. Not your property thats for sure. Startled and in fear that hes about to get burgled or attacked the landowner shoots the 'intruder' (you) and you bleed to death before help can get to you. Is that reasonable? You shouldn't have been on his land after all. What if that hand of the person at the window wasn't a burglar but somone who needed help? Fancy schmancy things like DETAILS & LAW shouldn't get in the way of a good shootout huh? I am not anti-gun at all, this is whats funny, you make me argue about it so much it probably seems I am. My concern is people like you don't seem to rationalise situations before you'd whip out a gun and start shooting at whoever. People like me look at certain situations that have happened in AMerica and at certain people and think 'theres no way I want that over here' I was only just issued a stab vest last year, up until them, we didn't have them. You know why? Health & Safety risk assessment proved that the risks weren't high enough at the time. Times have changed and we now have them as standard issue. But we are a long way of needing to be armed. I like the fact that I can stop a car and not have to ask the driver if they have a gun on them or in the vehicle. I like the fact that if there is an armed incident we have dedicated response vehicles for such incidents who can respond just as promptly as a normal local patrol. I like the fact that if someone i sgetting agitated and puts their hands in the pocket the worst I have to worry about is a knife or a needle I've never had a member of the public come up to me and say or mention in general that they don't feel safe and that guns are the answer. If noone wants it, they wont do it. Why can't you get that in your head? (Not just you John but others) The majority don't want guns and being a wonderful democracy it wont happen as long as it stays that way. People trust the police to deal with matters like that although I appreciate sometimes if you are in a situation you could need help immediatly.

Your such a diplomat Its all true though. Thats the worrying thing

Yes I'll probably be senile (I'm halfway there already) or dead by then given the history of heart disease in my family. If I can get a rub out at 76 years old though, I'll be very pleased with myself

Agreed, but it has never been the case that guns are everyday items over here, except maybe for farmers children. Absolutely agree but you can't just suddenly make weapons available for all who are eligible, could you imagine the carnage of millions of first time gun owners all at once? Maybe, but remember these tools are designed to maim or kill. They are handy for self defence though, no denying that I don't think its fair to say people that don't have an interest in guns or feel they should be available for public use are wackos, just concerned with the implications that will bring. Yes, proper training and tuition, not only in handling and maintaining weapons, but proper security of them with psychological evaluations, lessons in conflict management and use of force etc. Maybe its excessive, but you think all you had to go through to drive a car, fly an aircraft or anything paticularly dangerous without the correct instruction. I think that would be responsible. But then causes the other argument: The small time criminal, burglar, car thief or whatever.... would they suddenly arm themselves where they hadn't before to create an even playing field? Weapons of any sort escalate things. Until it happens, we will never know. You can comment when it does happen and say "see, we told you it was the way forward" or "what the hell, its all gone mad in the UK since they've been allowed guns". I guess time will tell..... and it is only a matter of time

This reminds me of when I was in Spain. Loads of people were shouting "door" at the extremely experienced freefly champions who just sat calmly til everyone shut up and made a motion to part all the heads so he could see the pilot. When he got a thumbs up from the pilot then they opened the door and started there exit. I find it tense enough without people shouting and screaming. As others have stated, the only shouting I want to hear is if there is a problem not because some pumped up egohead wants to get out ASAP

"Nope, theres nothing in here, just a couple of elephant skin rugs" - *SCREAM* -

My only issue is that it was co-founded by somone aged 76

I can tell you mate being 210 pounds (get it right) and 'trained' or not, its still scary as fuck and I've never been in that situation luckily. By the way, the extent of my training in knife defence was to practice pat, wrap, attack. But ultimately if you can, get away from the weapon. Only fight if you are trapped. I can see where a gun is handy for sure but these instances just don't occur alot over here. Im serious, I'm not saying we live in some twee country free of crime, because we all know thats crap, but stuff like that doesn't really happen. I believe it was you who said I live in a country of victims? What about all the instances where legally held weapons have been accidentally discharged and hurt or killed people. What about when peoples kids have taken them and got into bother and ended up dead or shooting up a school (as an example) Anyway, I don't paticularly want to argue this furthur as I'm pretty certain that the way things are over here is good for us but could be better and the same could also be said for how things are going on your side of the pond. I don't want to debate which is better as we will simply never agree, statistics can be provided proving and disproving both ways. I feel that I am in quite a good position to comment on certainly local crime and say that we don't need our citizens arming to defend themselves and we don't even need a routinely armed police force, although I wouldn't be against the last given that they frequently attend situations on a daily basis that many people wouldn't even see in a year let alone get themselves directly involved with.

I've never been on a high but I used to act like I was drunk if I drunk too much Coke when I was younger. Was freaky

interesting concept - not very PC at all, but interesting...... I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter Its quite true and might not be text book politically correct but its what we all need to appreciate to get along. As a 'native countryman' (this sounds bigoted already) in my homeland I should not have to bow down to cultural pressures. For example, stop singing hymns at school because it upsets the muslims and wearing crucifics on TV. Its a Christian country, get over it. You knew that before you came here. They should appreciate that and not demand we change. Succesful integration (in whatever scenario we are talking about) comes from respecting each other and gettin gon with things. If that means we don't rub peoples nose in things then thats fair. It should also mean though, they they be culturally aware of how they're differences may appear to us. It is 2 way. So as we accept there different ways (praying at certain times etc) they should accept ours.

As there is no option for no tree cos its a pain to put up and take down for one day I'm going to have to vote 'I thought this was about boobs you asshole'

That was a small range of your samples. You are touching on impact factors vaguely. These will affect a persons perceived position of disadvantage. Here are a few for example (list is endless) Age, Weight, Size, Build, Behaviour, Drink or Drugs, Weapons used or present, Lighting, Number of perceived aggressors, Number of perceived victims, Persons mannerisms, Location, Tactical response options So for example if we build on your first examples and assume we are in the UK as the topic was originally EXAMPLE 1: 50 year old man is confronted by a 25 year old man, no apprant cause of dispute. 25 year old is being very aggressive and squaring up to him. He is swearing loudly and tenses his fists, his turns his body into a bladed fighting stance raises his arms. His head is tipped forward to protect his neck, his face is pale as his blood had rushed to all muscles and neccesary organs ready for a confrontation and to prevent bleeding in event of an injury (bodies natural defence). He has now stopped shouting (second major warning sign) and is focused on you. Its day time, in the town centre, he appears to have been drinking and doesnt seem to be in posession of any weapon. You'd probably be justified in delivery a pre-emptive strike, be it a kick, punch, palm heel strike or other basic movement. Alternatively of course, you could try and get away if there is an escape route and a safe location. For example into a busy shop. IT WOULD NOT BE PROPORTIONATE TO USE A FIREARM IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE EXAMPLE 2: 30 year old woman is confronted by the same man. She would probably perceive herself to be at more of a risk than the unlucky candidate in example one and so would be justified in using a higher use of force based on how she felt at the time. For example she may pick something up thats to hand to defend herself or gouge his eyes. I would still say at this point USE OF AFIREARM IS NOT PROPORTIONATE EXAMPLE 3 (my own) Downtown Shittsville, some sleezy dark backstreet. An 18 year old woman of slight build is confronted by a group of males aged late 20s. They make improper advances and suggest she comes with them, when she forcefully declines they inform her she doesn't have an option and one of them produces a knife and another leans forward to take hold of her. At this point she screams "FREEZE MOTHERFUCKERS!!" and pulls a pistol out of her handbag. She makes many clear demands for them to back off and moves back herself to create space despite this one male still advances with a knife, she therefore discharge sthe weapon and drops the aggressor. The other males leave. THAT WOULD BE PROPORTIONATE Building on aprecious post... therefore shooting someone who ran AWAY from you would also not be proportionate. Exactly whos life was in danger at that point? EDIT TO ADD: If you would pull a gun on anyone who would have a dispute with you at the first sign of aggression you shouldn't be carrying a gun in my opinion. But then, that wouldn't happen as we all know as America is armed, its such a polite society and people don't have disagreements

Exactly. It was, if not stupid, maybe naieve of them to not at least expect a raised eyebrow. Same as if I flew with gulf air dressed in a full miltary outfit I'd expect some drama. Integration is a 2 way thing. It doesn't mean we have to accept you, it should mean we appreciate each others differences and respect each other.