Kennedy

Can you at least be specific about your complaints, since you won't bother to link to it. I don't want to address your concern with facts and them have you claim you meant another incident. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Do some drive-bys targeting doctors/pharmacists? Makes cars more dangerous, drugs less available, and lets hysterical people scream about guns and ignore the other two. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Can you link to that video? I can link you to the UCMJ. It's right here: http://www.ucmj.us/ It's briefly explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Code_of_Military_Justice While you're at it, instead of acting like it's obvious how he was protecting the constitution and defending the country and anyone who doesn't know that is an idiot, why don't you explain why you think he was doing that? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Holder Cites Race in Explaining Scrutiny of Justice Department Actions meanwhile... Suspect in Fast and Furious-Related Murder of U.S. Agent Extradited Defendant Charged with Alleged Participation in Murder of ICE Special Agent Jaime Zapata and the Attempted Murder of ICE Special Agent Victor Avila witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Impressive impression of shrilly shrieking shrews. ShotSpotter is a great tool for areas with significant gun violence. It gets cops to the scene of gunfire pronto. It's good for getting violent scum off the street (or sending LEOs to aid a victim who just defended themself with a gun). It works wonders in urban shitholes. However it is a joke that they are selling the system as Homeland Security and a sniper stopper system. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

If you mean Kyllo v US, then I think you got it backwards. SCOTUS ruled the using IR tech to scan a house was a "search" under the 4th requiring a warrant. I don't know what case(s) covered planes and helicopters flying over otherwise private and cordoned-off areas. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this. I'm glad officers and suspects are safer, but not so sure about the "flying in a plane=plain sight exception" concept. There are also other instances where departments are tryign to buy their own UAVs for law enforcement, just much smaller and less high tech. This ND instance has the additional twist of using federal (military?) resources. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

It's ugly, but I don't care. Yeah, I suppose that one picture has a twin towers look to it, but I'm sure if one were there in person it would not brign up any 9/11 memories or images. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

(1) You need to learn the difference between income and wealth. (2) I'm surprised it's only the bottom 30%, considering how many people have a negative networth. If the bottom 15 cancel out the next 10, that means the Waltons equal what, the 25th through 30th percentile? (3) As lawrocket has already pointed out, if you took everything the 1% own, it'd run the government for a year. What then? Would you take everything from the top 2% the next year? (4) There never has been or will be a time when everyone is equal. Get used to it. (5) Your rants generally just convince people that you are jealous and greedy. Possibly lazy, too. Have realized that quoting alternet and commondreams is not going to accomplish much? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I guess you haven't read his posts in other threads. And no, he isn't joking. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

They forgot the cardinal rule, you are always on camera. What they did looked incredibly wrong, specially the apparent cavalier attitude it was done in. It gave the protestors the upper hand for a number of days. From that perspective, they would have been better off to try some pressure point or pinching techniques. Would have looked a looked a lot better on camera. Thank you. That is a valid concern and a reasonable preference. I don't think they forgot they were on camera. What folks have to realize is that nearly every use of force looks "bad" on film, even when justified, necessary, and unavoidable. I also agree they could have used more push-pull and torque/pain compliance hands-on techniques. Officers have been debating since the dawn of pepper spray as to which looks worse: spraying a non-violent resisting suspect or torquing one to the ground. I disagree that they SHOULD have, but I agree they could have. As to the cavalier attitude, that was intentional. As bad as a calm detached ho-hum officer looks while spraying someone, an angry or excited officer looks even worse. (and a smiling officer deploying a TASER looks worst*) When using the pepper spray, as I said way back on page one, the officer would have looked better if he had remembered basic OC training - one second bursts. I think if he had let two officers give commands and use hard hands on one protester and then sprayed just that protester, it would have looked a lot better. Then if necessary he could have spray the protesters on either side, one at a time. It really looks bad holding the trigger walking around the circle spraying six or seven people. Overall, I think this incident was blown way out of proportion by lies and misrepresentations. The letter about prying mouths open and puking blood was out there the first day, before even the snippet videos. Then came the short videos trying to imply the protesters were sprayed just for sitting down and protesting. If the facts had been known from day one, I think a lot of people would not have reacted so negatively towards the lieutenant. Instead a lot of visceral reactions took root before the facts came out, and now the facts are all being looked at through fertilizer colored glasses. It's a fact of life in the 24hr live news instant-communication-around-the-globe world we live in these days. * - note: If you watch a lot of video, you'll catch officers with a smile while using a TASER. That's not because they are enjoying what they are doing; it's actually a learned response. While going through TASER training, a lot of videos and humor are used (to keep officers engaged in the class and to calm nerves about being hit with one). Officers laugh a lot and many associate it with the sight and sounds of a TASER in action. Often that leads to a small smile during an actual use of force. There is one video out there of an asshole - later fired - using a TASER inappropriately and wearing a demonic looking grin: that is NOT what I'm talking about. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I can get my head around that just fine. I can also accept that some things are illegal but may not be morally wrong. Right and wrong can be very subjective. However I'm glad we can all agree now that officers did not break any laws. In your opinion, why was it wrong? I'm asking a serious question. No one has said WHY they feel it was wrong. Some have suggested other actions they would have preferred officers take, but no one said why they think it's wrong. I've already explained that OC spray is less likely to result in injuries to everyone invovled and no one had anything to say in disagreement (except pops who couldn't explain how/why he thinks OC causes injuries), so why do you feel officers are wrong to choose that method? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

‘Furious’ twisting Eric Holder stonewalls That should be enough to convince you to read a fairly short but poignant article. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

'We didn't lie. We didn't perjure ourselves. We merely provided sworn testimony and letters to congress that was completely inaccurate.' -Holder 'Lying,' Holder Says, 'Has to Do With Your State of Mind' http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/holder-nobody-doj-has-lied/244706 witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Sure, if you think OWS represents the general populace. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So do you want officers and protesters to get hurt? Despite what people seem to think, use of force continuums have been developed for a reason. It's not abitrary that pepper spray is lower than "hard hands" type of force. OC results in fewer injuries for both officers and suspects. Think about the bruises, strains, sprains, and breaks that could result from officers marching over the protesters or grabbing them and wrenching them apart. Now look at how many injuries resulted from OC spray (hint: zero). After the OC spray, some of the protesters let go (the feeling of liquid hot magma in your eyes will do that). They were then grabbed and moved without injury. Others were much easier to separate because they were not focused on linking arms (that magma thing). witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

You chide other people for not agreeing to what they can actually observe on the video. The cops could clearly leave. The video shows it. For the rest of your post, I'll redirect you to the last line of my post you quoted. So in other words, you're not going to answer my post. I answered your point, and your response is to ignore my answer. Thanks for nothing. To save you having to click back, I said: The next part of my post was about why they used OC instead of empty hands. It was in THIS post, two pages back. In that post I said So I'll ask again, which type of force do you want officers to use, the one less likely to result in injury, or the one more likely to result in injury? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Do you realize how many times that question has already passed right over the top of the police-supporter's heads? I'm still waiting for you to tell us what kind of injury is suffered when someone is sprayed. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Well, we agree on that much. You'd be right, if that's what happened. The problem with your statement is that pepper spray wasn't in response to student protest. It was in response to resisting/delaying/obstructing officers from performing their duties. I can think of plenty, some are even legal and plausible. None of that changes the fact that officers acted in accordance with case law, statute, state mandated training, and department policy. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

It sounds like you have issues with the college admin that called in police. Do you have any action or inaction by officers that make you call them clueless? Or do you expect officers to do nothing when told to go enforce the law by the authority in their jurisdiction? Police do answer to some other authority, you know (city, county, state, college, corp, or Atty general). witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Why do you call the officers clueless? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I like how your argument changed from "preventing them to leave" to "preventing them from doing their job". Clearly they weren't prevented at any point from doing their job. Clearly they were also never prevented from leaving. As a matter of fact, the protestors "allowed" the officer to leave to do a better job of directing the spray in their faces. I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there was not a better way of handling the situation. My argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving. By your logic, there's nothing with locking cops in a building to prevent them from arresting your friend. "They can just break out of the building, so they weren't really stopped." Wrong. Just because officers can overcome resistance that doesn't mean it isn't really resistance. Those officers made at least two arrests. The protesters surrounded the officers. Since the protesters refused to move, the officers are going to take steps to make them move. Officers are not going to carry an arrestee over a line of protesters. There is all kinds of liability and vulnerability involved in doing that. The officers are going to leave, and they are going to take the arrestees with them. The protesters' choices left the officers no option but using force. If you want to argue about the appropriate level of force, then you need to understand how police use of force policies work and how relevant court cases have been decided. The officers tried gentle hands "lifting, guiding, directing" type of actions. No, they didn't try long because those actions clearly would not move protesters. They linked arms, remember? So since a "soft hands" approach did not work, the officers move to another level of force. (note that officers are not required to use each level of force before resorting to a higher one) Officers could have gone straight to using "hand hands" empty hands tenchniques (call it DT, SCAT, EHC, whatever). However, they elected to use the level of force lower than hard hands and less likely to result in injury: pepper spray. Maybe you think it would have been better to do something else. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But officers used force exactly how their state law, state training, and department policy instruct them to act. What would you rather they have done, force the protesters apart without using OC spray? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Kinda like people believe a vet suffered ICU quality head trauma at OWS. Kinda like people believe a kid was beaten for flicking an nypd supervisor's hat. Kinda like people believe cops at UC Davis just walked up and pepper sprayed students for blocking a sidewalk. Kinda like people believe they can be sovereign citizens and not contract with government. Kinda like people believe anything a chain email tells them. Don't forget, undercover officers have to tell you if you ask if they're a cop. Like K said, people are dumb stupid and panicky. That's why government "sells" instead of "works". witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Well excuse me but fuck that. How about they not B+E or trespass. If anyone has a right to the house it's the people who lived there, not some fleabagger and their chosen ones. This is no different than the B+E squatters in the UK claiming rights to houses. Oh, and like Jerry said, in honor of all the decent folks who went through foreclosure, here's a hearty FUCK YOU to any fleabagger trespassers and anyone thinking they should try this. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

They do. Specially like how the cop who is goign to pepper spraying them fornot letting the cops leave, steps frmo the inside of the ring to the outside of the ring. Uh huh, and do you have anything to say about surrounding officers and preventing them from doing their job? Or do you think it's ok to surround people and refuse to move? Should officers be expected to carry an arrestee over other people? Anything to say about the lies told about officers? Did you see anyone's mouth pried open and OC spray into their mouths? Did you see that tents were NOT taken down before the arrest was made? Did you see how officers spoke with protesters and protesters refused to move? Did you see how protesters understood they'd be sprayed and chose not to move? Did you see how officers DID try to move the protesters with empty hands before pepper spray was used? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*