Kennedy

Some animals are more equal than others. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Do you think it is acceptable for a group of people to surround officers, block their movement, and refuse to let them go? Would you rather officers wade in and start beating people? Asking and telling the protesters to move didn't work. Studies have shown that the faster use of force overcomes restistance, the less likely there will be injuries. Studies have also shown using OC results in fewer injuries than putting hands on people to effect an arrest. Officers don't engage in pushing and pulling contests. It isn't safe. It isn't effective. More significantly, it makes it more likely that the level of force will escalate even higher. What would you have the officers do? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Your site certainly is rightwing fringe... or can't you tell the difference anymore with all that "Fair and Balanced" propaganda that has been shoved down the right wings throats so willingly. Get past who reported it. I got it off Fark (or maybe Drudge). They got it from the Democrasy Now! website. Can you get past the source and talk about what's on the video now? The fact that they surrounded police officers and refused to let the officers leave? That they were clearly warned that officers would use pepper spray if protesters refused to move? Can you address anything in my OP other than your distaste for the website? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I am not surprised at all by the site you posted.. more false information from the far fringe right that poses as reality in our quicly approaching militaristic fascist state Why do YOU apologize for bullies who get off on their little power trips day in and day out.?? Why can't you answer a question or address facts? What's false about the info? Here. This is the source of the video. It's called democracy now. Read their about us page and tell me if you think they're rightwing fringe. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Yeah, when you break the law and the police show, you should comply with their instructions or expect to suffer unpleasant consequences as they use reasonable force to overcome your resistance. Why do you have an issue with officers following the law and department policy? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So other than providing you with sensitive documents from multiple agencies, what will shut you up? Whether you like it or not, pepper spray is commonly used against suspects exhibiting passive noncompliance or nonassaultive physical resistance. Laws courts and agencies have deemed this appropriate. If you insist on talking about peacefully people committing no crime being attacked by police with chemical weapons, it'll be impossible to have a discussion with you about UC Davis, because that's not reality. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Every suspect's actions fit into one of the following categories at any given time (of course they can move from one to another in an instant) Compliance Passive noncompliance Verbal resistance Physical resistance Physical assault These UC Davis protesters were not complying, I think we can all agree on that. They were not practicing passive noncompliance either. Passive noncompliance is just sitting quietly in one place like the 60s sit-in protests. They were verbally resistant. When told they were breaking the law and facing arrest they stated they would not move. When told to move they said "no." It was not aggressive, but it was verbal resistance. The protesters were also physically resistant. When you join arms and hold on to things to prevent officers from moving you, that is an affirmative act, an intentional physical act to prevent officers from effecting an arrest. I don't think anyone at that protest brought it up to assault. Does that fit your definition of "peaceful," ladies and gentlemen? It doesn't fit mine. Now, in addition to the video where we can see the protesters seated in a curve (we can't see behind the officers where if it continues that curve would form a circle surrounding officers), we have a protester on video admiring that they surrounded officers and would not let the officers leave unless they climbed over or forcibly moved the protesters. Does that fit your definition of "peaceful," ladies and gentlemen? It doesn't fit mine. I'm not saying I would have done things exactly like the officers on scene. I'm not saying they were wrong, either. I'm saying, as a Monday morning quarterback, they could have done a few things better. First, I would have used a loud speaker, or if unavailable, would have used a much louder voice. I would not have addressed just one or two quietly. (they may have done this, I don't know, and I don't have video leading up to the circle) Second, I would have had two officers attempt to move one protester. I don't think they would have succeeded, and I wouldn't expect them to. It would have been to demonstrate that the protesters will not move with "soft hands" physical guidance and that they are resisting push/pull physical force. Then I would address the crowd again, reinforcing that they are trespassing/disorderly/illegally blocking a sodewalk/wrongfully detaining officers etc, stating that they have refused lawful orders to disperse and that they have resisted lower uses of force. Then state that they will be pepper sprayed if they refuse to move. Finally, when they don't move, I'd have one officer spray a single suspect on the sidewalk. Then have two officers grab and move that one suspect. If others interfere, I'd spray them as necessary. Also, each spritz of OC spray would be a burst at a single suspect. The continuous spray just looks bad. It has the same results, and the same lack of injuries, but being right isn't enough, you have to look good doing it. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Actually I'm just sick of dealing with ignorant loudmouths on this particular topic. Go ahead and be proud of your ignorance. The rest of us have moved on. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

U.S. withdrawal from Iraq: Eight years worth of stuff So, we're on our way out. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Oddly, they still seem to have gasoline. (Which my guess probably runs out MUCH faster.) Ehhh. . .crap. You're right here. The reality would have stopped the plot cold. You still could make biodiesel at farms. Gasoline would be hard to come by, but diesel engines can run forever. MadMax plot realism? Not so much. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

The Pakistani government has never really be a friend of the USA. Not much of an ally either. Let's be honest: the Taliban was never anything more than a wing of the Pakistani government running their backwoods neighbor. We pay them billions and they shelter the folks attacking US troops. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Pakistan: 24 troops dead in NATO helicopter attack Pakistan blocks NATO supply route after deadly raid witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Nope, you're right. Modern gunpowder is beyond 99% of gun owners I'd guess. I knows it's beyond me and anyone I shoot with or work with. Black powder is easier to mix up, but also not realistic for most shooters. If you're talking a minor collapse or significant violent unrest, then factories may still be up and running for government types. In that case stealing is easier than making powder. In a full on post apocalyptic world, ammo is a very valuable and irreplaceable commodity. Guns would matter for months or years, but being able to make your tools is more important to making it in the long run. There are lots of books about making bows, arrows, and knives without electricity. I'd say small plot farming knowledge is at least as important as those skills, if not moreso. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Anything to say about the fact that the story is looking more and more like a complete fabrication? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Those laws are ridiculous. They're wrong because (A) they prevent third patries from recording events in public (B) they create inequity by allowing one party to record and not the other (C) they make it illegal for a person to record his own actions. They are particularly despicable because they can be twisted to mean anything. Of course that wouldn't matter if people elected representatives to correct the law or DAs that wouldn't indict or try this type of case, but that's expecting far too much. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

OK, she was at a demonstration. OK, she was hit with pepper spray. Those are the undisputed facts. Was she kicked? If so, by whom? Was she pregnant? If so why do those close to her doubt it? With all the video cameras, why are none of the alleged incidents of police brutalitynay OWS events on film? (except for OC spray, which law and courts say are justified) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Especially when you think throwing batteries at people, throwing urine at people, breaking others' property, an depriving others of their rights is "right". you worry about those rights and the rest of us will worry about the right to enjoy the fruits of our labour without the 1% and their henchmen taking it from us... And there we have it ladies and gentlemen. He doesn't care about anyone else's rights. He doesn't care what abuses are inflicted on anyone else. He only cares about more for himself, regardless of the rights of others. Dreamdancer, thank you. You've illustrated OWS more clearly than I ever could. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Especially when you think throwing batteries at people, throwing urine at people, breaking others' property, an depriving others of their rights is "right". witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Since you made the claim that pretty much every police organization uses that continuum, you should be doing the proving. Or you would just be repeating shit you heard. Well, since the shit I heard came from other sworn and certified officers, most folks give that more credence than "this one time on tv" or "that reporter said" references. I haven't seen the written UOF policies for most, That depends on how you define physical control. Obviously "soft hands" things like guiding with an open hand and use of restraints like cuffs on a non-resisting suspect are lesser force than OC spray. However, I can only think of one department that places OC on par with striking, baton, and TASER. Then they've made it completely useless. By the time an incident rises to assault, OC is pointless. OC's value lies in its ability to make higher force like manhandling and intermediate tools. Pepper spray is most useful on very static situations like a nonviolent noncompliance suspect who refuses a command like "turn around and put your hands behind your back," but doesn't move. OC is a very poor choice for times like an active assault or violently resisting suspect. Riots at G# events and hockey games would not support that conclusion. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So you're ok with destruction of property, throwing bodily fluids at people, and citing people with blades. But only when it's people you don't like. Generally, that's referred to as hypocrisy. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

"This is how things work" is the generic answer to every protest movement we've ever seen. Nothing changes without these sorts of events. Obviously not having a cause (yet) will make it hard for OWS, but this rationalization wears thin. Sorry if I wasn't clear. We were discussing use of pepper spray in a specific incident and it's justification as applied to law enforcement. There are reasons to agree with OWS and reasons to disagree. But it's difficult to discuss a legal issue like use of force when people don't know what they're talking about and won't listen when you try to share information. If they just want to vent and share feelings, well whoop di do for them, but that has no bearing on how police work or why government does what it does. While I can imagine a few situations that I might describe as nonviolent yet not peaceful (KKK marches, for example), the union of the two terms is pretty high - 90%? I think you'll need to man up and actually tell us how sitting on a sidewalk refusing to move is not peaceful. It's not at all like looting, breaking windows, tearing down fences, attacking cops, and other mishaps we've seen over the past couple months. An activity cannot be peaceful without being nonviolent. However an activity can be non-violent without being peaceful. Sitting on a sidewalk (or street, bridge, port, park, etc) and refusing to move is denying others their right to use that sidewalk. It is a statement that you have control over it, that your rights and claims are superior to that of others. That is non-violent. That is not peaceful. An activity, such as a protest, that fails to follow Time Place Manner restrictions is most likely not going to be peaceful. To some extent, I understand the idea that you have to make waves to be noticed. On the other hand, you do not have the right to interfere with other people's right to go about their lives. Your freedom of speech does not include making an ungodly racket at 3am in front of their house. Your right to assemble does not include the right to block other's access to buildings or to assemble in a place where you have no right to be (like private property where the owner/controller states you are unwelcome). That noise is noviolent, that trespass or denial of access is nonviolent, but it is not peaceful. In fact is disturbs the peace. That's why people call the police, and that's why the police will arrest the people who don't stop their illegal activity. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

OK, so we all kow how noisy and irritating fleabaggers are. How are the teabaggers noisy and irritating? (in your view) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

How many bridges, streets or sidewalks did TEA Party rallies shut down? How many businesses did TEA Party rallies destroy? How many legally operating ports did TEA Party rallies shut down? How many people were annoyed to the point of legal action against TEA Party rallies? I think it's pretty clear who he's talking about, and I think you knew it. Bill you're usually good at getting a point across with one liners pointing out faults in others' posts, but not this one. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

So...quite obviously, you think that the use of pepper spray against non-violent people is justifiable. Sad...and only perpetuates the current mind-set of the police mentality. Yes, I know pepper spray can be used against subjecst who are resisting arrest or refusing a lawful order. I know that it's safer for the subject and the officer. I know that department policies say it's justified, I know state courts say it's justified, and I know federal courts including the supreme court say it's justified, and I know the clsoest thing to "best practices" for law enforcement says it's justified. What are you relying on to say it's NOT justified? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

And the first sad part is that you, and others, see no problem with that progression. The second sad part is that you don't see the protest as having been peaceful and non-violent. I feel for you, man. Save your feelings. I'm sick and tired of arguing facts and laws again people's feelings. I tried sharing information with uninformed folks, particularly marinus. Whether you like it or not, that is how things work. And before someone else has a hissy fit, they were placed in that order for a reason. If you want to understand why, ask, and someone can explain it to you. If you'd rather complain to people who agree with you, then have your circle jerk and enjoy, but I won't be there. I have said before peaceful and nonviolent are not the same thing. Do you think they are? If not, what is the difference to your mind? edit to add Lawrocket said it better and with more patience. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4225946#4225946 witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*