Kennedy

Yes, not a given. Well, which would you rather police use, methods less likely to result in injury, or methods more likely to result in injury? Why, obviously, of course! It's kinda hard to fight when you're squirming on the ground after being sprayed or TASERed. I assume that you don't consider being sprayed as being injured. And...since you stated it, I'll ask. "Fewer injuries than what?" Fewer injuries than empty hands techniques. And no, getting sprayed is not being injured. I've been sprayed (to the point of dripping wet) three times, and exposed more or less many other times. I've never been injured from spray. What injury do you think OC exposure causes? I happen to agree with the Supreme Court. I wouldn't require officers use the least violent action (it's impossible to know what the least amount of effective force is). I would require officers use a reasonable response. Like someone already tried to get across, using ineffective responses not only fails to resolve the situation, it is actually counterproductive in that it tends to escalate an already bad situation. Example: an officer doesn't pepper spray a guy who is threatening him with a baseball bat. He also doesn't use his baton. He goes for a firearm or a TASER. Why? Officers are not expected or required to fight fair. They are expected to complete whatever duty they are attempting to perform, while complying with law and policy. Have you watched the video I posted? Alternate View of UC Davis Pepper Spraying You need to get it out of your head that officers just showed up and sprayed a bunch of kids for sitting on the sidewalk. Officers made an arrest. Protesters surrounded the officers. Protesters then linked arms. Protesters chanted "IF YOU LET THEM GO, WE WILL LET YOU LEAVE." Officers explained that protesters were breaking the law, and subject to use of force. Protesters chose not to move. Officers then waited until additional officers arrived. Officers again explained that force would be used and allowed protesters the chance to leave. Two officers then attempted to moved a protester by grabbing and lifting. This didn't work because protesters had linked arms and refused to let go. Officers then used pepper spray. Things look a little different when you see more than thirty seconds and more than on camera POV, don't they? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Oh stop with the silly assed "punch in the face" analogy (whomever started it). We are not talking about two people standing at arms length. We are talking about two countries. If you really want to keep up the punching nonsense, then I supose a more accurate analogy would go something like this: Guy J claims to be non violent, but lets Guy H stand behind him and occasionally reach out and hit Guy I with a club. Guy J says "don't you dare hit me." Guy H keeps hitting Guy I. Guy I swings back and hits Guy H with a club. Guy I brushes Guy J's arm with his wrist. Guy J complains about being struck. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Non sequitur. Lebanon says it wasn't them firing at Israel, so Israel shouldn't fire into Lebanese territory. Lebanon doesn't address the fact that someone is firing into Israel from Lebanese territory. Address THAT problem and I don't imagine Israel would be firing artillery. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

You got it wrong: I don't think Lebanon (or the Lebanese) is "an organization associated with al-Qaida" And yes, I'm sceptical about the good intentions of Lebanon too, but you simply can't fire shells into a sovereign nation and expect them to be fine with it, not even if you're gods own people. And you simply can't allow established terrorists to fire rockets into a sovereign nation and expect them to be fine with it. What do you want Israel to do instead? Just sit there and accept incoming fire? I don't care if it was the Lebanese government, Hezbollah, or the tooth fairy. Whomever fired rockets at Israel can expect Israel to return fire. If Lebanon doesn't like it, they should keep control over their territory. As they are incapable of exercising control, the territory isn't really theirs, and they really have no reason to be upset about artillery. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

You say that as if it's a given. I disagree. It may not be a given, but it is far more likely. Watch the video in my post above this one. You'll see officers doing a lot of the things you suggest. They just don't work because protesters don't want lesser steps to work. The use of pepper spray (and TASERs, believe it or not) have both resulted in fewer injuries to officers and to suspects. There have been deaths after pepper spray and deaths after TASER use*, but the number of deaths after use of force incidents have not gone up. What that means is that yes, some people will die after fighting with the police, and yes, they may still die if officers use OC or TASER, but that both officers and suspects are less likely to be injured with those two options, and no one is any more likely to die. That's right. There is no increase in the likelihood of death, and a statistically significant reduction in the number of officer AND suspect injures. http://www.nij.gov/journals/267/use-of-force.htm https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/195739.pdf note: death after use does not equal death caused by. Most of the deaths after use of OC or TASER are related to positional asphyxiation (inability to breath due to body position/restriction). Most states now train officer to avoid this by not using a "hog tie" position after arrest, not letting arrestees lie on their chest, watching for difficulty breathing, calling EMS after exposure, or other steps. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I'm going to try one more time with you. This was a good thread, maybe we can salvage something out of it. I don't know if I wasn't clear or if you misunderstood, but I never claimed that all officers across the globe use pepper spray immediately after verbal commands. What I was trying to get across is that in first world countries the use of pepper spray after verbal commands is legal and allowed by policy. That does not mean it is required or that all officers are going to use it. I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of officers not using pepper spray when they could have. The fact that they didn't use it does not mean they were not allowed to use it. As for sources, as I said, that is direct from the horses mouth. If you don't want to accept personal experience and conversation from reliable sources, then that's not my problem. I don't have written policies from all the departments I listed, but I've spoken with officers from each of them. Some of them were even trainers in relevant fields (defensive tactics, use of force, subject control and arrest techniques, empty hand combat, etc). If you don't like that many departments do not openly share their internal policy, then take it up with them. I've tried to get several of them and some of my requests were denied, ignored, or answered with huge blanks. Since I can't substantiate these facts without disclosing personal and private professional information, I'm not going to. The "whiny backstabbing bastards" bit was not in reference to people that disagree with me. Plenty of posters disagree with me but would readily acknowledge that I've never called them anything like that. It was in reference to phillykev. He's a former poster here and THE poster child for not sharing personal information. No, the issue is that you think the methods are more questionable and are unwilling to listen to anyone's explenation. You claimed that it almost universally used after a verbal warning. And I don't know if the term "soft hand" methods exist, but I'm sure you understand where I'm getting at. They should at least have tried to remove the protesters in a non-violent way. Actually, they did. There is video out there showing two officers grabbed a protester on the sidwalk and tried to move him. The protesters held on to each other (that linking arms I addressed earlier). Also, officers are not required to try using lesser force when it is clearly inapplicable. That is the "not required to hit every step in the continuum" I addressed earlier. The easy example is that officers are not requried to use pepper spray, or batons, or even verbal commands, when they are being attacked with a deadly weapon - they can go straight to firearms. That applies here because when you have a group that has sat down, linked arms, and refused to leave, there is no point is trying to use a soft open hand to guide them away, or even to try pushing or pulling them. The officers at UC Davis went above and beyond by trying to move the protesters. You tell me, you claimed specifically they do use pepper spray in the same situation. I said they can, not that they always will or always have to. See above. I agree completely and utterly with you on that statement. The problem is what you consider police violence. Try watching this video through and seeing if it changes your mind at all about the officers using pepper spray. Get it out of your mind that officers were simply spraying people for blocking a sidewalk. This group was set on blocking officers from leaving and preventing them from leaving the area with an arrestee. Alternate View of UC Davis Pepper Spraying If it doesn't, then you are simply too far out of step on what pepper spray is and how it is used. In that case, your anger should be aimed at law makers, judges, civil officials, and law enforcement administrators. They are the ones that teach and train officers and tell them how to do the job without being fired and/or arrested. Also, to other posters who stated that tents had been taken down before the first arrests were made, this video shows you are mistaken. Damn, ain't it a shame when facts get in the way of a good story? Just like the alleged brain injury, just like so many other OWS lies. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Or those books about Warsaw, or Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any of the dozens of times under equipped insurgents fucked with "more powerful" forces? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Ignoring the substance of that second batch of nonsense, what does it have to do with the Federal Reserve or verbil's question to you? Do you have anything to say, or are you just here to spam us all with links and snippets from articles unrelated to each other? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I left the topic because you were annoying me. I tried to share information with you, You didn't want to hear it. Don't expect me to share private details of my training or employment on this board. We've all seen how what works out when whiny little bastards decide to turn backstabber. If you cannot understand that there are several ways to deal with blackade type demonstrations and protests, that's not my problem. You also should be able to understand that there is a difference between a single officer's approach and mobile field force tactics involving what you call "riot police". None of that changes the fact that pepper spray is used in many places around the world as an acceptable option before using "hard hands" methods. Do you understand that there is a difference between carrying off a passive protester and trying to break up protesters who have linked arms and refuse to let go? Do you understand that there is a difference between things like blocking streets buildings railroads etc and surrounding a group of officers and refusing to let them leave? Do you think the Polizei would have used the same tactics if their officers had been surrounded while making an arrest and protesters surrounded them? Despite the hysterics of a few liars, this incident at UC Davis was not jackbooted thugs rolling into the park just to spray some random protesters in a line. This incident was officers clearing out a park (no pepper spray used). The officers made an arrest (no pepper spray used). The protesters then surrounded the officers and refused to let them leave (no pepper spray used). The protesters linked arms and sat down, preventing officers from leaving with the arrestee (no pepper spray used). The officers attempted to speak with the protesters (no pepper spray used). The officers explained that if protesters continued to block officers from leaving, force would be used (no pepper spray used). The officers then used pepper spray to attempt to gain compliance. Were the officers perfect that day? No. Were there others things they could have done? Yes. Were they required to do anything different by law, policy, or common sense? No. And that's how most of us feel about you. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Ignoring the substance of that nonsense, what does it have to do with the Federal Reserve or verbil's question to you? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Wel, Bill and Jeanne haven't answered, maybe you will spend five minutes, watch the video, and address my question. Watch the two videos linked in this post earlier in this thread. So, do you think my narrative concerning that day is correct? (that officers made an arrest, the protesters didn't like it, the protesters surrounded the officers, the protesters sat down a linked arms to prevent officers leaving, the officers talked to the protesters, informed them that they were breaking the law, warned the protesters that officers were about use of force, and used force to exit) Have you got a different storyline? Have you seen anything to dispute this or support another narrative? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Jack Flash I've had several face to face conversations with Bill Looman, and I can assure you that he isn't very bright. If it wasn't for his wife's inheritance he would probably be living in a half-wide trailer cleaning septic tanks for a living. Really, a "half-wide" trailer? I'm not sure he should comment on anyone else being bright or dim. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Bill, do you think my narrative concerning that day is correct? (that officers made an arrest, the protesters didn't like it, the protesters surrounded the officers, the protesters sat down a linked arms, the officers talked to the protesters, informed them that they were breaking the law, warned the protesters about use of force, and used force to exit) If so, why are you calling the officers violent idiots. If not, what do you think I've got wrong in that timeline? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Seems the results of their actions are pretty telling... sometimes there ARE repercussions for those who abuse their authority... most of the time though... lets face it.. the"police" get away with a hell of a lot of "teaching em a lesson" Those results are the response to a misrepresentation. Those results are in response to officers coming on to campus and pepper spraying peaceful protesters. Reality (and video) shows us that is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." How many people would be so upset if they knew that the protesters surrounded officers who were trying to leave with an arrestee, and that the officers did everything including talking to protesters first? What abuse of authority was there here? You haven't answered me. Do you have a different narrative for what happened? Or do you agree with mine and merely disagree with how the officers handled being corraled and kept from leaving? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I've done my best to try to figure out exactly what happened by listening to both sides and watching as much video as possible. Have you got a narrative that differs from mine? You never answered my question about what you see in that video. So, in your own words, tell us what happened at UC Davis. Tell us why we should be upset. Tell us what the officers did wrong or what they could have done better. Do you have enough story to be upset, or are you guilty of jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information, your own preconceived notions, and thirty seconds of video? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Persecution is fine. "Prosecution" is different. I understand the desire to be anonymous in numerous things. But I am not a person who has NEARLY the same problem with “persecution” over beliefs as with “prosecution” over beliefs. I was reading about the things going on in Los Angeles this morning. The part that got me, again, was the part about some protesters taking over streets and intersections. Their chant: “Whose streets? OUR STREETS!” This is my FUNDAMENTAL disagreement. The streets are EVERYBODY’S streets. Not theirs. Not mine. Everybody’s streets, parks, sidewalks, etc. Except for private property belongs to those who either own it or lease it. The reasons for time, place and manner restrictions are best exemplified by the few assholes blocking streets who are of the feeling that their right to block streets is superior to the rights of the thousands of others who just want to use them. The reasons for these permit requirements stem from the actions of those who exercise private dominion over public land. I see the problems that you see, Andy. It just comes down to the subjective weighing of interests. What he said. I'm not a fan of requiring permits for most assemblies and protests (amplified sound being are area I am ok with permitting). However, like the man said, Time Place Manner are so that everybody can exercise their rights, not just the most demanding. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Well, we can't trust the Occupy folks for the full story, and UC Davis is slow in getting things out because they actually seem to care about getting the story correct. But videos shot by Occupy types is the best evidence against them. So here's what nobody has said. Look at this video, show from inside the circle of protesters surrounding police officers and refusing to allow the officers to leave. YouTube Video showing officers escorting an arresttee out of the circle to the waiting squad car. That means the officers made an arrest, and the protesters sat down in a circle and refused to let the officers take their prisoner to the jail/holding facility. YouTube Video linked in the OP. Listen carefully to the chants. At 00:50, protesters are chanting "WE WILL LET YOU LEAVE, IF YOU LET THEM GO." So does anyone still think this was a peaceful protest where some jackbooted thugs just rolled up for a day of OC spray and giggles? It looks to me like officers made an arrest, the protesters surrounded the officers, refused to let officers leave, were warned that force would be used to allow officers to leave, and OC spray was used. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Do you really expect police to climb over people who have surrounded them and won't let them leave? It'll never happen for two reasons: one, no officer is going to make himself that vulnerable to someone, especially when that someone has no respect for police, and two, police are there to enforce the law - not to run away. What kind of message is sent when officers are fully prepared and still run away? A smaller but still relevant issue is how will the climbing over protesters open police to liability, aka the ever present "how can this get me sued?" concern. Actually, this came out this first day after the pepper spray video hit the web. No one focussed on it. You can even find it in one of the other threads. The problem is that protesters can make up and lies or sensationalized story they want to match their pics. The police and school admin actually need facts and an investigation. They have something to lose. Has anyone really take the OWS folks to task for all their lies? What you're missing is that the ten or fifteen suspects sitting on the sidewalk were NOT injured. Despite the idiocy of the faculty letter to UC Davis president, no one puked blood and no one needed a hospital. Lots of water, clean clothes, and a fan is all they needed. None of them sustained any injuries at all. They experienced temporary discomfort, nothing more. (remember, I say that after three full dousings with OC and countless exposures; I hate the stuff so much I'd rather be TASERed again than be fully sprayed) Its uncomfortable as it gets, but discomfort is not an injury. As stupid as the "it's a food, essentially" comment was, she was trying to make a valid point: OC is not a dangerous substance and exposure will not injure you. After the sidewalk sitters were sprayed, they were separated by hand. This was mich more gentle than yanking them apart would have been, and much safer for both suspect and officer. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Act like human beings and leave... and quit escalating things thru stupidity and macho bullshit. Jeanne, did you even go to the link in the OP? The protesters surrounded the officers an wouldn't let them leave. Watch the video at the bottom of the page. Listen to the chant. They wouldn't let the officers leave. Walking away was not an option. Next answer? B U L L S H I T.. We are leaving... and they walk away... but we all know that would never happen under Homeland Security militarization.. and needledick syndrome. Jeanne, have you watched the video at the bottom of the OP link? What do you see on the video? I see a crowd surrounding officers refusing to let them leave. I hear them chanting that they won't let them go. How do you want them to walk away, by stepping on protesters? You are seeing what you want to see.. nothing more Well I doubt I'm hallucinating. So tell me, what do you see in the video? Tell me what you see. Tell me what you hear. If its different from what I see and hear, I REALLY want to know why. Anyone else feel free to chime in. What's in the video? Edit for typo: damn phone autocorrect witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Marinus has a tendency to project how he wants things to be over how they actually are. Pakistan is by far the most unstable nuclear power. There isn't any unity top to bottom or across agencies. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45452110/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ The population doesn't control the government, the government doesn't control the military, and the military doesn't control the entirety of their land. Talking about Pakistan as a single entity is impractical. Really you need to address which faction or figure you're talking about. Does anyone think it's impossible that the outpost was involved in or aware and accepting of the attack on NATO forces? (regardless of what the orders and instructions coming from the capital) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Act like human beings and leave... and quit escalating things thru stupidity and macho bullshit. Jeanne, did you even go to the link in the OP? The protesters surrounded the officers an wouldn't let them leave. Watch the video at the bottom of the page. Listen to the chant. They wouldn't let the officers leave. Walking away was not an option. Next answer? B U L L S H I T.. We are leaving... and they walk away... but we all know that would never happen under Homeland Security militarization.. and needledick syndrome. Jeanne, have you watched the video at the bottom of the OP link? What do you see on the video? I see a crowd surrounding officers refusing to let them leave. I hear them chanting that they won't let them go. How do you want them to walk away, by stepping on protesters? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Take it down a notch or two. So far we're keeping it to talking in this thread. No screaming or bwahaha BS. I'd like to keep it that way. I prefer talking over beers tone to screaming over barricades tone. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Act like human beings and leave... and quit escalating things thru stupidity and macho bullshit. Jeanne, did you even go to the link in the OP? The protesters surrounded the officers an wouldn't let them leave. Watch the video at the bottom of the page. Listen to the chant. They wouldn't let the officers leave. Walking away was not an option. Next answer? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

That is some funny shit.. coming from you and your ilk. Scary shit that you can't see that far left is just as dangerous and controlling as far right. It'd also be nice if you could disagree with folks without labeling them. Do you ever read over your posts and realize how much you sound like the folks you hate? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

*sigh* Is your keyboard stuck? How many times are you going to ask that and continue to avoid reading the anwers that have been posted repeatedly. you're wasting bandwidth. I wanted Jeanne's opinion. But as to your question, I saw some folks suggest grabbing protesters, yanking them apart, and then dragging them as a group out of the way and off of the sidewalk. That is just about guaranteed to injure them. I guess I have more concern for protesters than that. No one was injured when the officers did it my way. I'm also still waiting for video of officers prying anyone's mouth or eyes open and forcing it down their throat. I am so tired of people flat out lying about officers and facing no consequences. The hat flick body slam and beating. The pregnant belly kicking. The mouth prying OC spraying blood puking. It been one bullshit allegation after another. So now that we know that the protesters did surround the officers and refuse to let them leave, and that they were warned, why do you have a problem with the pepper spray? I've been sprayed (practically painted) three separate times for training and exposed I don't know how many times. Yeah, it sucks. But you know what? Nobody gets hurt. The important thing is for officers to manage the suspect's panic response. I prefer temporary discomfort to the possibility of sprains, breaks, nerve injuries, etc. I've been sprayed, and I've seen the difference between spraying and fighting. Given a choice, I'll spray rather than wrestle. Safer for me and them. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*