Kennedy

hear, hear! (too much of the test asks about self control, rather than what you wanted to do in a given situation) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

If only lawyers actually wrote letters like that, this world would be a better place. ps - yeah, I think God has a valid claim to the original title. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

ok, in that case... (A) Thank you. (B) Is it really that unusual to see BPAs in BDUs? Admittedly I don't know your job any better than you know my neighborhood, but it seems like the ones doing surveillance etc would, while the ones to round up and other functions wouldn't. Am I that far off? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

and apparently you still suffer delusions... witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

ba-dum-bump bump ba-dum-bump bump ba-dum-bump bum bum bum ba-dump ba-dum-bump buuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ba-dum bump ba-dum-bump buuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ba-dum bump ba-dum-bump bump ba-dum-bump bump ba-dum-bump bum bum bum ba-dump ba-dum-bump buuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ba-dum bump ba-dum-bump buuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ba-dum bump witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

bah, light weight kids. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Hey, what can I say? Studying some of those "liberal arts" required liberal application of alcohol. And don't feel bad Dave, there wasn't a crim or engr student who could hold a candle to me back then. Good thing too- might've been dangerous what with all the flammable liquids witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

As long as we talk about self defense instead of gun rights versus gun control and other political stuff, the thread can stay right where it is. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

It must be reasonable fear, as decided by police, prosecutors, and/or a jury. (it also helps his defense that he didn't actually shoot - restraint always helps a case for self defense) That may be true in some states, but the federal standard is having been committed to a psych ward or ruled mentally incompetant by a court. I suppose that depends on what you call their routine duties. See attachments. edit: damn, pics are corrupted, anyway, they weren't current military issue BDUs, but they were boot cut cargos and a miltiary-looking green uniform - do a google images search for border patrol agent, you'll see them in BDUs. The article quoted him or his family as saying he has nothing to do with the Minutemen Project. It may affect the thoughts of the jury in both good and bad ways for the defense, and it may provide mitigating circumstances if he's convicted, but you're right in that it doesn't affect the material facts of the case. True, for now. Once the argument is made that it is a threat to national security or that it is an invasion, you never know... witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Remember, the standard is reasonable fear, as considered by a prosecutor and decided by a jury. Not having fear, or using an "unreasonable" fear is grounds for indictment/conviction of aggravated assault. (assault for threatening someone/making them afraid, and aggravated because a deadly weapon was involved) - Everything humanly possible to de-escalate and seem non-threatening. - If he wants to wait for the cops, hey, that's just great by me. - Constantly reassess the situation and revise my response if it does go bad. - Be very, very thankful that I've trained, practiced, shot, and mentally prepared for this shit. - If I've got time, pray. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Engineers may not be the life of the party, and most of them can't hold their liquor, but they try out the best shit!! witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

My two worst are the Andy griffith theme song and that whisling toon for the animated part of Kill Bill I. Neither has words, and I can never get the kill bill whistling right, but once they're in they won't go away. 'It's A Small World' is an evil song, too. OK, I'm off to cue up: Loooooongneck Bottle, Two Pina Coloadas, Margaritaville, and Boat Drinks. If those don't work, I'll have to hit some serious beachy tunes. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Six men walking towards you is not cause for reasonable fear. The GI was shaken enough to state that he was attacked, even though they didn't ge to physically harm him (this is a vet returned from Iraq, not some field mouse jumping at shadows). "who he said rushed toward him out of the darkness of an Arizona rest stop" If your six BPA-looking men seemed to surround or actually threaten the man leaving the mall, then drawing a pistol would be justified. Also, six men leaving a mall are less likely to lead to suspicion than six hsipanics coming out of the bushes of a highway rest stop at night. Besides, if they look like BPAs, why would your Mexican man fear them? Let's do a little analogy check: Six men? yes walking? no, rushing out of a mall? no, dark bushes at a rest stop at night look like law enforcement? no You changed a little more than just the race to make oyur "opposite angle," Bill. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I don't know about over there, but those statements are not true here in the states. Here, pointing a gun at someone is threatening deadly force. Shooting them is using deadly force. I don't know of any self defense instructors or police agencies who suggest "wounding shots." If a shot is necessary, it is a shot to stop. Wounding shots will generally lead to very serious felony charges. There are however instances where threat of GBH is ustified where a shooting might not be. If someone is breaking into your house through your window, you're probably not justified in shooting, but pointing the gun at him and shouting a "stop or else" warning is justified. Hence threat of GBH is ok but causing GBH is not unless the criminal escalates the situation to a threat to your life. That strikes me as ridiculous. If he was justified in using deadly force, then why does it matter if a person is killed or just maimed? (over here, uding deadly force does not require death. shooting or stabbinga person is using deadly force whther they die or not) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

If he reasonably feared GBH, then you don't need a crime to draw a weapon. Also, if he reasonably feared GBH, you could argue that the ilelgals were guilty of asault. A good rule of thumb, though no always true, is that "if you're justified in drawing, then you're justified in detaining." (as long as detaining does not require an escalation of force - you can continue to point the gun at them, but if they run, tackling and/or shooting might not be justified) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

When did I say that assault requires physical injury? I never discounted that. Unlike others, I even bothered to look up the applicable state law, though assault statutes tend to say the same thing everywhere more or less. http://www.esia.net/arizona_statutes.htm I never argued he didn't take actions that can be construed as aggravated assault. He "intentionally placed another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury," and "used a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument." However, simply doing those two things does not necessarily mean committing agravated assault. When a police officer draws his firearm in self defense, he is not committing aggravated assault. When a home owner draws on a burglar he is not committing aggravated assault. And the circumstances here show that this man drew in self defense, and so he did not commit aggravated assault. For the fifteenth time, everything hinges on whether a jury decides his fear of GBH was reasonable. If it was, then the illegals committed assault, and he took justifiable measures. That's simply not true. If you have a reasonable fear of GBH, you may defend yourself however you choose. GBH is a deadly threat. If an unarmed burglar shows up in your bedroom, you are not required to duke itout hand to hand. You may draw a gun and prevent any violence from taking place. If he reasonably feared GBH, then the illegals committed assault, and he was justified in detaining them for law enforcement. Everything depends on whether a jury decides he reasonably feared for his safety. If he did, he's done nothing wrong. If they decide it was unjustified (as you did even without all the facts), then he'll be convicted of aggravated assault. Also, you need to stop saying that he used force. He never did. He used threat of force. Significant difference. A home owner can continue pointing a gun at a burglar even after the felon has surrendered, because until law enforcement arrives and cuffs him, there is still a threat. The homeowner was justified in drawing and covering the burglar. If the jury decides he was justified in drawing, then he was completely justified in continuing to cover the illegals. Everything depends on whether the draw was justified. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

When did he use deadly force? When he pulled the gun. The force doesn't have to result in death. It only needs to be of a sort which could reasonably lead to death. You are factually wrong. Drawing a deadly weapon is not the same thing as using deadly force. What he did is threaten deadly force, not use deadly force. There is a very large legal distinction. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I don't recall that fancy legal word for "it just happend and we're still dealing with it," but that would be the case here. The legal right pertaining to detaining felons would apply here if he had just been assaulted. As such, everything depends on the legality of the draw. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

No, the dividing line is whether he was privleged to use deadly force after they retreated. You are incorrect. He never injured the seven men. He never used deadly force, so he doesn't need to justify deadly force. He needs to justify drawing, so the test is reasonable fear of GBH. How are you so convinced he was "dressed up playing policeman" rather than just letting his dog piss duringa roadtrip? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Once the direct threat of GBH (great/gross bodily harm) is past, that doesn't always end the situation. He did nothing wrong in detaining the men if the draw was legal. He is under indictment for pulling the gun on them while they were on foot. Everything hinges on whether a jury finds that reasonable. Everything else is justified or not based on the draw. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

That's a question for the jury. "Reasonable belief" is the requirement. Also, you're taking a very closed view of what is written. Admitting no one touched you is hardly saying no one threatened you. Trust me, a person can threaten you without a weapon from twenty feet away. Hell, when I throw on a thermal shirt and my cargos, I might look like a BP agent. He was at teh rest stop because He was travelling and had to let his dog piss. I didn't think stopping at a rest tsop was cause for suspicion. Hell, if it is, I'll be under intense scrutiny because I'm driving from NJ to TN tomorrow to pick up my brother's dogs, and then driving home. You can rest assured I am going to stop at rest stops along the way. Also, why is being armed cause for suspicion? I doubt it. People pulling into rest stops is not uncommon, and neither is people going about their daily lives while armed. We are talking about Arizona here, not Albany. I don't wear a badge yet, and if you look at the legal threshold it's not a clear as might imagine. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

It's not a question of whether he threatened them. His defense is that he feared for his life/safety. The rest is fluffy background. Remember, you're only reading what the writer included, not necesarily to most perinent parts of the statement. The dividing line between legal and illegal in this case is whether or not he had a reasonable belief that his was in danger of GBH. That's why it'll go to court, and he'll be found not-guilty. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

A well written and "fair and balanced" article, wasn't it? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I was thinking the same thing- "there isn't a rule about torturing him to within an inch of his life..." I'd hidden-video me turning him over what's left of him to guys in suits and black Suburbans, then steal someone's idea and hire than agent/publicist. (besides, then they can get info out of him by threatening to give him back to me, and have complete deniabilty about hurting him) A "thanks" from the POTUS would be nice, too. now, where's that reference book on new and unique forms of torture... witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*