skydived19006

OK, here is my quick read of the regulation, interpretation, and consideration of what is reasonable. It’s only my opinion. For the definitive application of the regulation, please contact Jim Crouch directly at USPA. Remember, I’m just a guy with no authority in the matter. First, I think your interpretation of 2-1(E)(4)(a) is correct. The regulation does say that ALL jumps must be “conducted” by an Instructor. I don’t see the significance of the capitalization of Instructor. What I do see is that the regulation does not say “under the supervision” or “direct supervision,” of the Instructor, but rather uses the term “conducted by.” That suggests that the person doing the jump training and dispatch must be an appropriately rated instructor, as long as the jumper is under the IAD/SL programs. My hunch is the intent is that the person doing the dispatch of an actual SL or IAD must be rated in the appropriate discipline (IAD for an IAD student, or SL for a SL student). I think the idea is that once the student is beyond the IAD or SL specific part of the training, then an Instructor in any program is able to do the in air dispatch. I think that should also include a Coach as the direct supervisor, as long as an Instructor is providing oversight as the supervisor. I think it is unreasonable for a Coach to handle an IAD or SL deployment (and I know you are not asking for this). I think it is probably reasonable for a Coach to handle everything after the first freefall, at least given the way the Coach rating is handled for other disciplines. That’s just my opinion. Tom, In hindsight I should have touched base with you before I wrote or at least submitted my Waiver request! You are correct with regard to contacting Jim Crouch, and I did. I and another DZO contacted him on multiple occasions regarding this issue, and he always very “political” with his response, and would not give a definitive answer. My guess would be that he sees it as giving permission to violate a BSR, and the obvious politics involved restrict him form giving his opinion, or even giving a liberal interpretation. What I’m asking is obviously not the common practice, or what is outlined within the IRM regarding the Coach rating. The problem is that the BSRs, ISP, and IRM do not correspond, and that logic takes a back seat to politics. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I never suggested that anyone other than an Instructor rated in the discipline handle the actual IAD, or Static Line. So, as I read your concern it’s moot to the discussion here. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

No, a Coach should not be able to control a static line and dispatch a student. Coaches are for Cat F and beyond. Show me where it states that in the BSRs! Oh, thanks for playing along Chuck! Although there may be few willing to join this topic, I think most who take the time to lurk/read it will gain some insight, if not learn something. I’d like to hear what Tom Buchanan has to say on the topic!!! I’ll PM him and ask him to put in his 2 cents. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok, then envision a premature deployment damaging the airplane, That securely belted passenger is now not fairly screwed, but totally screwed as if it’s time to abandon the airplane he will have the privilege riding it down by himself. It also just occurred to me that this may actually be illegal (as in a violation of FARs) as everyone is required to have a parachute when operating the door at altitude. If this is the case it would also be illegal to dispatch a student with a tandem pair on board unless they are hooked up. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

We do have two IAD Instructors that are always there (I and my partner); these two Instructors are also the Tandem Instructors, video guys, and virtually every other job on the DZ other than pilot. When we have tandems scheduled, if we’re the only staff available which is often the case the students may simply have to sit most of the day and wait until one of us has an hour “free” to go put them out. It’s been my observation that there are very few people who are even interested in pressuring a rating these days (other than Tandem rating), then when they know that their first rating of Coach is useless, what little motivation they might have had just went out the window. Again, the way the BSR is written, an Instructor is required on all IAD progression student jumps and a Coach is not allowed to participate until the student is no longer a student (A licensed). I suppose a way around this would be to “convert” my IAD students to AFF students once they have demonstrated the ability to recover form back to earth presentation (although we do not train AFF at all) as the ISP is all about continuity between training methods. Now my new “neophyte AFF student” is allowed to jump with a Coach. Here’s a little hijack of my own thread Chuck. What do you think about having a tandem Instructor with a tandem rig on his back and his passenger in the back of the 182 dispatching an actual IAD student? As far as I can tell there is no rule, law, or suggestion against it. I’m not suggesting that it’s anything other than a bad idea, or that I would do it, but ironically as far as I can tell it would be a “legal solution” to my little dilemma. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I understand that my original post was long, but if you read it in it’s entirety you would know that I did not suggest that a Coach ever handle a Static Line or IAD. I also did not suggest that anyone other than an Instructor supervise the “A” License Check Dive. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Wow! Generally I’d be the last one to pick on someone’s writing skills, but Damn! It takes me two or three reads to decipher your comments freefallmomma. I understand that you’re just trolling, but I’ll respond anyway. Writing aside, I am a DZO, I did in the past accept Skyride GCs, and no longer do! Not that you live by the same standards that I do, or would I ever expect you to. I had a problem being in bed with the crooks that the owners of Skyride are. Of the 30 or so tandem students that came to me through Skyride, every one of them walked in with a decidedly strange gate, for the fact that the proverbial Skyride dick was still well embedded up their ass! By accepting the GCs I was an accomplice in the rape, and so as I gained information I decided to no longer be a part of it! I can’t put a number on how Skyride has hurt my bottom line, I would expect it isn’t by much. I called them as a potential customer a few months after I stopped being a Skyride accomplice. Within that conversation with the “reservation specialist” I was lied to on sever occasions. I asked where their “local DZ” might be, and they gave me vague directions to my DZ “SE of you about 40 minutes” my DZ is 30 minutes SE of where I told them I was, and I’m the only one out there for hundreds of miles. If your children were aware of the unethical practices that you’re involved in as a Skyride employee/accomplice, you should ask yourself how you would explain yourself. If you found out that your children were involved in cheating their fellow school mates out of their lunch money how would you handle it? Maybe they set up a little booking agency where they took their classmates lunch money with the promise of all things good. Took their cut, and sent them to their school lunch room with a gift certificate that was not accepted, but had to be redeemed at Freefall Mommas Best Ever Peanut Butter Kitchen. It matters not whether you make the best damn peanut butter sandwiches on the face of the earth (“ASC is a great DZ”), your children are still screwing the customer, and I bet in short order you’d have a few people on your doorstep complaining about your children’s little “service”. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Nope, I did cut/paste it but went back and inserted a few type Os, and misspellings just for those who enjoy finding them. I'll be the first to admit that it's not perfect, if USPA does ever respond, and they raise spelling issues, or inconsistency issues, I'll do another revision. So Monkey, you're generally good for an openion. What's your openion on the issue? Poor spellers of the world UNTIE! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok, I officially applied for a Waiver; following is the content of the waiver request. After reading and rereading these rules, it comes to the point of whether the word “instructor” is capitalized or not. According to the BSRs (BSRs are the only rules to be waived, it matters not what the ISP or IRM may suggest!) a USPA rated Coach may not supervise any IAD/Static Line student, it clearly states “2-1-E-4a(1) All jumps must be conducted by a USPA Instructor in that student's training method.” If you read that literally (which is how literal rules should be interpreted), the word “Instructor” is capitalized, which means someone with an USPA Instructors rating (not someone with a USPA instructional rating, which would include a Coach), so a Coach is allowed to start working with IAD/Static Line students once they are no longer students, to me that means after they have their “A” license. If your DZ is allowing their Coaches to supervise any IAD/Static Line students at any phase of the ISP they/you are in violation of this BSR! I’m trying to “light a fire” under the collective asses of the USPA Executive Council! If being in direct violation of a very specific BSR bothers you at all, you might consider contacting your Regional Director, applying for a Waiver, or suggesting that the BSRs be rewritten to include the USPA Coach. My suggestion is that the Coach be allowed to supervise all IAD and Static Line students, excluding all actual IAD, or Static Line, and the A License Check Dive. This is the content of my waiver request... 2-1-E-4a(1) a. IAD and static-line [E] (1) All jumps must be conducted by a USPA Instructor in that student's training method. 2-1-E-4c c. All students must jump under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation. [E] Reason waiver is requested (cite unnecessary burden or research and development of improved techniques and methods): 1. 2-1-E-4a(1) states that “All jumps must be conducted by a USPA Instructor in that student’s training method”, following this logic a SL/IAD student would never be allowed to jump under the supervision of a USPA Coach, unless we take a liberal definition of the term “student”, call him a “neophyte” at a point of my choice in his progression, and let him jump under the supervision of a USPA Coach. 2. 2-1-E-4c is actually under the heading of “b. Harness-hold program [NW]”. This implies that after the student has shown the ability to recover form disorienting maneuvers he will be allowed to jump with any licensed skydiver, no USPA Coach or USPA Instructor is required at all. Again, I don’t understand if this is the intent, or if the rule is again simply vague. 3. Coaches are trained to teach freefall skills. As such it’s my opinion that a Coach can teach freefall skills from 10 second freefalls on. 4. We train only IAD (we also do tandem, but if a student wants to learn to skydive we only train IAD), as far as I can tell there are no additional freefall skills required of an SL/IAD instructor beyond what’s required of a Coach. 5. With the SL/IAD training method the Instructor/Coach does not “intervene” or “save” a student, the Instructor/Coach is only there to observe, critique, criticize, recommend advancement, repetition, or regression. Following the ISP, when the instructor starts to interact (RW) with the student is when the Coach is traditionally allowed to work with the student. 6. With SL/IAD the student is not allowed to freefall until they have demonstrated the ability to deploy stable (three successful and stable practice pulls). They have not yet demonstrated the ability to recover form a disorienting maneuver within 5 seconds, but again whether there’s an Instructor or Coach “directly supervising” they are not allowed or qualified to attempt to “save” the student. 7. One might argue that a seasoned Instructor might be better able to deal with a student’s stability, or turning problems. I’m not ruling out having an Instructor jump with my freefall students. Additionally if my Coaches are not allowed to use their rating, and only make half a dozen “Coach” jumps with students during their tenure as a Coach, I would argue that they are no more “seasoned” as an Instructor than they were as a Coach. They will at that point simply have a new title. 8. I do not propose that anyone other than an Instructor conduct the “A license check dive”. 9. This waiver could also be considered research and development. I think that the SIM, ISP, IRM, should be reconsidered, and rewritten to better define what exactly the Coach can do, and define it as it applies to each training discipline. I also think continuity between training methods should take a back seat to logic! 10. Currently I could theoretically move up the “recover form back to earth presentation” to come directly after the Clear and Pull, after the student had satisfactorily demonstrated that he could recover I could allow my Coaches to directly supervise my students, and be in compliance with the BSRs. I think this would be a very dangerous “solution”, as if the student were not able to recover he would be pulling unstable. Another political argument for reconsideration of the wording in the SIM, and a separation between training methods. What I propose it to have only USPA IAD rated Instructors handle the actual Instructor Assisted Deployments, and also the first Clear and Pull (Category C, Dive Plan 1). Once the student is cleared for 10 second freefall, I propose having the USPA rated Coach directly supervise (form the plane/freefall) the student, and to have an IAD instructor indirectly supervise (from the ground). Regarding my “hardship”: When the USPA instituted the new instructional rating system it not only had the affect of greatly increasing the proficiency of the instructional staff, but it at the same time made it considerably more difficult to attain instructional ratings. At an SL/IAD drop zone, as the system is currently structured the Coach rating is virtually useless (only allowed to conduct the last few jumps on the 1 to 3 students we have progress to that level each year), and I believe was designed around AFF, with SL/IAD “forced” in almost as an afterthought. My “youngest” IAD instructor got his rating over 5 years ago (before the rating changes were made), and we often find ourselves in a situation where we have students who want to jump, but no “appropriately” rated instructors available to conduct the skydive. It’s my opinion that if we are allowed to implement my waiver, we will be able to provide better and timelier service to our students, and in the long run we’ll be able to train more new skydivers. As the system now stands, I have seriously considered completely dropping my student program, and becoming a “tandem factory”. This would be a last resort, and if this were to become the industry trend it would eventually kill the sport as no new skydivers would ever be trained. I would also suggest that this requirement be reviewed and rewritten with two sets of requirements along the lines of my waiver for all IAD and SL drop zones. I do understand that the ISP was/is designed to provide continuity between training methods, but the differences between SL/IAD and AFF/Tandem Progression are so vast I think this supposed continuity is not serving as a positive compromise. If it’s the position of USPA that under the existing BSRs no Waiver is needed to necessary to implement my suggested procedures, a letter to that affect would be sufficient. Note: I originally wrote this waiver around the BSR pertaining to “harness hold” students. I am aware that there are inconsistencies between the two BSRs mentioned, this waiver underwent more than a few revisions, and I should have spent more time making it more consistent. In hindsight I should have eliminated everything pertaining to harness hold. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'll admit that when I read this I thought 'you're full of shit, they just changed that'. But I went and read the requirements again, and you're absolutely correct. 50 for a B, then when you get 100 with a B you can get the Coach rating. Look at that, it's not yet 9:00 am, and I already learned something today. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Yeah, but with what you do have, you can get all the balls you want! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Unlikely. Your "new spouse" would get to decide what is done with the $50,000 the family gets. So...I bet if they got a skydiving "dropzone bums" family on the show, they would pair them up with an ultra-high-maintenence mom who will want to spend it all on designer clothes, custom furniture, Prada & Louis Vuitton bags, jewelry, etc. _Pm Well then that being the case since I'm a DZO, I think my wife would decide that the her "new" family needed a $50,000 gift certificate to my DZ, to be used for a "Ultra Premium $50,000 Tandem Skydive". Not just a generic GC, otherwise as has been suggested they would sell it on ebay to one of my regulars and I'd actually have to honor it. What goes around, comes around! Now go play nice. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Yep, other than that she sent it out in a "spam" to every DZ in the country already. I'm just spreading the spam. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'd do it in a heart beat, except that my two boys are 1 and 3 years. Seems to me that not many skydivers meet the requirements. Martin AC DZ My name is Cat Wegner. I work as a casting director at "Trading Spouses", a reality show on Fox TV. I'm contacting you for this because I'm hoping you might be interested or could help me. I am currently casting for families who are passionate about skydiving. Trading Spouses is a family-themed reality show that airs on Fox, Monday nights at 8PM. The purpose of our show is to compare and contrast various families across the country while highlighting their unique interests and cultures! For example, we've had everyone from hunters to vegans, alligator wranglers to family bands, tattoo artists to political activists appear on our show. Currently, we are casting for new episodes and would love to meet more interesting families who could show the world a little bit about what makes them so special! This is a terrific opportunity for any family who is energetic and who wants to learn about another way of life. In addition, every family who has appeared on the show has been compensated $50,000! All families who want to be on our show must have at least one child between the ages of 5 & 18 and must be legally married. Please have a look on our website: www.fox.com for more details. If you know of anyone who might fit this description, please contact me as soon as possible. Please E-mail me: cwegner@rocketsciencelabs.com or call. My number is 3238020538 Thanks so much for your time! Sincerely, Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Early 90s most reserve rides were due to “issues” with CRW. Now most are from line twists. Wing Loading was calculated as square feet/lb 230sf parachute with 200lb under it would have been 1.15 loading. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

It’s sad that this stuff is “aired” in public, and all of it sounds like crap to me! If you have an “issue” with the DZO, bring it to him/her! If you’re still not happy, move on! Still not happy, step up invest all your money and time, and open your own DZ! It’s really fun, and as DZO life is always rosy, never money or people problems, and I’m sure you’ll always be able to make everyone happy all the time without exception! Martin DZO AC DZ Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

It’s not really a bad idea, although a pain in the ass. Imagine in court before a jury showing the video of the dead or mangled “victim” stating that “I understand that things could go way wrong and I could be seriously killed, or just fucked up in general…” Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

There is currently an effort by a group to break the record set in the “Man High” project by Kittinger. They’re trying to raise the money to put Cheryl Sterns out of a balloon launched form Wichita Kansas, project “StratoQuest”. As I understand she was/is to use a small drogue chute, and fly in a head low (tracking) position. And “she could reach a speed of up to 1.3 MACH (885 mph)!” Here ya go. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Every DZ can get their search ranking to meet, and exceed the Skyride rankings. Those ubiquitous Skyride sites get such high rankings because they’re PAID ADVERTISMENTS! I do not think we should expect USPA to set up paid advertisements, and try to charge the DZs for the service. Wake up and smell the coffee! Go to Overture and Google, spend some time, and the $20 a month and create your own paid search ads. The ranking is set on a “bid” biases, see what the Skyride ads are biding, and set your bid higher. Magically, you’re now ranking above Skyride every time! Here’s an example of one of my paid adds, notice the “third party warning”. Directly below this ad appears a Skyride paid ad. SPONSOR RESULTS Skydive Wichita Kansas Air Capital Drop Zone, Located 10 min Se of Wichita Kansas. Tandem skydive and solo first jump instruction. Don't use a third party booking service, come directly to us and save. www.aircapitaldropzone.com Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I have an idea how to handle this “situation”. When Skyride asks the DZ to “help this poor unfortunate customer out” and that it’s a “one time mistake”. How about responding, “OK, just this one time, but we’ll require $250 per tandem and $100 per video”. If they agree, insist that they will be required to pay in advance (Skyride requires the customer pay in advance after all!), you’ll schedule the tandems in three weeks, and do the jump only after payment has been received, deposited, and time had been allowed for the check to clear. It’s “not their policy to pay the DZ in advance”, but they’ll just have to make a “one time exception”. When they baulk at the fact that they’ll be losing money, inform them that whether Skyride is making money is not your concern and that your DZ now requires them to pay, “gear rental fee”, “instruction fee”, “port fee”, “terrorism fee”, “aircraft maintenance fee”, “in-flight refreshment fee”, “pilot fee”, “runway fee”, “taxi fee”, “hanger fee”, “packing fee”, “blue sky fee”, “gravity fee”, “oxygen fee”, and don’t forget the all important “beer fee!”. You might even offer them a $100 discount, but when you add the additional fees back in the cost somehow mysteriously ends up unchanged. Skyride will obviously never agree to these terms, so if you can’t get them to hang up on you, at some point I would think the appropriate and polite closing might sound something like “Fuck you very much, Good Bye!” Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

The following was copied form an email that’s circulating to just about every DZO in the country. I removed the names simply because I didn’t have specific permission to post the message, but I figured that if they were willing to send the message to 200+ email addresses that it shouldn’t be a problem. Also, received a call form Peter Linton-Smith who’s a Milwaukee area skydiver, and reporter for the FOX affiliate in Milwaukee. He’s doing a freelance article for Skydiving Mag on the Skyride issue. I had a nice conversation with him, and also suggested that he take a look at this thread. Martin I received a call from an irate customer in December stating that this drop zone had ruined the surprise of a tandem gift certificate for Holiday. She was insistent that "Mary" from our office called at 9:10 PM and left a voice message which ruined Christmas since her husband had listen to the recording. (We aren't open at 9:00PM nor do we have a staff member named Mary) After having spent several minutes listening to the customer's complaint, she offered that she had saved the voice mail and offered to play it for me, which she did. The number left was 1-800-SKYRIDE. I informed the customer that since we do not accept the certificates, she could call her credit card company and refuse the charges. I then offered her a tandem skydive at this location which was considerably less than what she had initially paid. This madness needs to stop. xxx A customer here had the same experience back IN January, told that we accepted the certificates and we do not. 800-SKYRIDE tried to get us to accept it 'just this time' which seems to be the latest scam they have going. Anyway I also suggested that she go to the credit card Co., not sure if she ever got her money back, but I suggested she raise hell about it. BBB.org has unsatisfactory records for SKYRIDE and I gave her that as well for ammunition to get a refund. Beware, thanks xxx Received an email from someone whom purchased a gift certificate from 1-800-skyrides... After she did this she emailed us to book-in... When I told her that we did not accept their gift certificates (she was told we did)... I advised her to call them right back and cancel the order... They refused... She emailed me back to see if I would accept the gift certificate this time... I told her that we could not... I advised her that she should contact her credit card company to see what she should do... That was 29 January 2005... We just heard from her today 3 March 2005, she is still waiting for her money from these people.... She told me that the gift certificate came and they did not accept it, but the charge appeared on their bill... We are keeping open communication with her and they still want to jump with us this summer...We only wish there was some way we could get these people to CALL US FIRST..... Just thought we would let all of you know about this latest happening....Any Thoughts.... xxx Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’m a DZO in a relatively small market (Wichita Kansas), and directly compete with another DZ. We get along, drink beer together; jumpers go freely between the DZs without anyone giving them crap about it, etc. I’m not saying that there are never “issues”, but the DZOs do set the tone. Maybe our situation is unique, or maybe you just don’t hear about the good relationships because people aren’t emotionally charged, and have no interest in spreading that info? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'm 6'8" and I do tandems out of a 182 with no problem. I weigh 210+/-, it's my experience that the guys shaped like a beech ball have a harder time than the thin tall ones, we fold up better! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok, a bit of a hijack but appropriate. What do you call a full time professional skydiver without a girlfriend? Homeless! And probably hungry, since he spent what little money he did earn on beer. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Never been in a side spin (600 or so tandems)! As I understand it’s caused when the passenger is de-arching and the instructor is arching )(. Long story short, fighting to flip something around may cause the spin. I’m 6’8” and I don’t fight, I’ll work to get the student to arch, if they are totally not arching, I’ll de-arch as well and we’ll fall stable on our backs for a few seconds until “the lights come back on” (on the rare occasion that I’ve done this, I’ve always had it stable and drogue out 1k off the plane). Again, worst case scenario, I’d throw the drogue on our backs between 6 and 7k, I would think that I could stop any flat spin causing issues as well if I’m leading the way. Is that just all wrong? If so, give me some learn’n! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ