skydived19006

It's been my experience that demos don't really sell people on making a skydive. They don't seem to connect seeing expert skydivers, with them being able to do a tandem, or solo first jump. Most skydivers think it's against USPA rules to do a tandem into a demo. Has to be both Pro rated to do anything small, but I've taken a tandem into a couple of open field demos. People can more easily connect themselves doing a jump, when they see the elementary school principal doing it into the play (very large open) ground! Look at the SIM before you tell me that I'm breaking rules!! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Before I make that claim I would like to see the minutes from the council meetings. Seems the city doesn't put them up in a timely fashion. I know what some have paraphrased but I've seen differences in what was originally said about the meeting and how the article put it. Still reserving judgement on the other DZOs. Generally meeting minuets isn’t a transcript of the discussion that transpired at a meeting. It’s more of details, like motions, and actions taken. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

As I understand it Glen Bangs knows Paul Eriksmoen personally from Cross Keys. The USPA generally would not give a non nonexistent/ non Group Member DZ the time of day. I have heard that this will be a topic of discussion at the upcoming BOD meeting. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That’s 1600 takeoffs/landings, or “operations”. A takeoff is one operation, a landing is another, flying a load of skydivers, or a Life Flight Sortie would each be two operations. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’m a sunflower, or at least have em on my underwear (or was that Sponge Bob, I’ll check and get back to you). I knew this would be a hot topic when I started the thread. I’ve had several people ask my motives for starting it. Honestly (I understand you’ll question my honesty, but oh well), I was curious what was being said here on this topic, and found nothing, so I started a thread. I do find it interesting how many people have registered, or registered under an anonymous name just to post in this thread. It’s also my opinion now that I’ve seen the level of comments here, that the whole thread is worthless. Nobody directly involved is going to put up anything pertinent here, they have nothing at all to gain, and what they’ve written becomes a matter of record that could be used at some point in the future (either for good or evil). Now, who cried when they shot ol yeller? Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Google is Google, Yahoo Search Marketing is just about every other search engine out there. Between the two services you cover it all. Just for fun... The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I destroy my enemy when I make him my friend. Abraham Lincoln There is no little enemy. •Benjamin Franklin The friend of my enemy is my enemy. •Anonymous With friends like this, who needs enemies? •Henny Youngman He hasn't an enemy in the world - but all his friends hate him. •Eddie Cantor Love your enemies just in case your friends turn out to be a bunch of bastards. •R A Dickson There is no stronger bond of friendship than a mutual enemy. •Frankfort Moore Talk well of your friends and of your enemies say nothing. •Proverb Remember, to them it is us who are the enemy. •N. F. Simpson In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it. Can’t we all just get along? Rodney King Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Atlanta has someone who doesn’t play fair? Nooo! One thing I took from the whole Skyride thing is just how affective advertising and the internet can be. I wouldn’t suggest that anyone in KC “fire up a boiler room”, but paid search ads are honestly relatively cheep. Are paid search ads affective? I’d say that Ben and Cary have proven that they will make your phone ring, after that it’s more about being good to the customer, and selling them. The Customer does not for the most part know the difference between a Cessna 182, and 208 (unless they talk to the “208 guy” first). Advertising does work! I increased my student traffic by 25% by investing in a little advertising. My opinion is that the KC market could generate 2,000 first jump students a year, if the word got out (better). I don’t know exactly how it is in KC, but given an elevator with 10 random people, 1 or 2 will have made a skydive, half know it’s available, and the other half will say “I didn’t even know you could do that here”. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Isaiah from PD was at our DZ for a small boogie we held last fall. I told a bunch of people there who were there to watch someone do a tandem that they might want to watch Isaiah land. A girl next to me asked what would be different about it; I said it would be obvious. Isaiah initiated his turn directly above everyone on the ramp, and as he’s spiraling down right at us, the girl that had asked what would be different, described his approach as “JEASUS CHRIST, HOLEY SHIT!!!” Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Now that's a bit of a shot don't you think? You propose that “the new guy” is a better DZO, he’s never even ran a DZ. And I doubt that you know any of the involved parties? I also doubt that justthefacts will be jumping at “The Kansas City Skydiving Center”, and why would assume that he wears panties? Have we touched on the “name issue”? Skydive Kansas City has been in place for quite some time, “The Kansas City Skydiving Center” (aka New Guy) proposed to open April 1. Seems Larry Hill sued and won on a similar issue, and is currently suing the Skyride boys for name infringement among other things. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Phil’s Caravan failed here for a few reasons. First and foremost, Wichita is a metro area of around 600,000, as opposed to KC area of something like 2,000,000. Between all DZs in the area we do 500 to 600 first jump students a year, and there isn’t the fun jumper population to fill a Caravan on a regular basis. BTW, it’s interesting to see what happens when you fill a Caravan with a bunch of “200 jump wonders” who are used to jumping 182s! Regardless of what I ever said about doing multiple small RW formations, it virtually always turned into a 12/14/16 way ZOO! I did participate on occasion, but damn sure always went out last or next to last! We did have an incident where a jumper got over a building formation, dropped 20 feet, dislocated both his shoulders, and if it weren’t for his Cypress would have ended the day as a statistic! I think one problem with the Caravan moving around was that people would save their money for “Caravan Weekend”, come out spend their budget, and the DZO would (beer in hand) sit at the end of the weekend and watch the airplane leave, along with all the money. There were a couple of problems with the freight contract in Pittsburg. One was the problem of ferrying the airplane back and fourth every weekend. You also have to maintain Part 135 which is much more stringent than Part 91. I think that freight contract was basically supporting the maintenance on the airplane and nothing more (covering the maintenance is a big deal). Nick Robson did get his Part 135 certificate, and Phil was working to get the plane another freight contract out of Wichita (to my knowledge) when the bank got all testy about their lack of money, and took the airplane away. I was told in a conversation (I don’t think I should reveal much of what was said to me in private) that Paul had called a staff member, after telling the DZO that he wouldn’t. Maybe Paul doesn’t have your phone number Joe? Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

As I understand the situation there is some truth in what’s been posted regarding Tom Dolphin, and Chris Hall. That said, what’s been posted is seriously one sided, and I’m sure that Tom and Chris would have a very different version. I do not foresee any of the existing DZ DZOs posting in this forum on this subject. They have nothing to gain. Some might say “why all the half lies, distortions, etc.” It’s because it is extremely political, and half lies, distortions, and spin are "politics"! In my opinion Paul would have been by far better served to have tried to have risen above the existing politics. How you say? By being up front and honest. Saying to any of the existing DZOs that “I’m not going to compete with you”, is just stupid. Saying “I won’t pursue your staff”, again stupid. It obviously costs considerably more to support a million dollar aircraft than it does a $30,000 one. That money has to come from tandems, and filling the airplane with fun jumpers. Flying 1000 to 2000 tandems a year requires staff, that staff has to come from the existing skydivers in the area. Paul will not be able to support full time staff; it’s just not feasible to live on what you’d make from your share of the tandems at a medium sized DZ (am I wrong?). From what I know about the numbers, I think the KC area could support a Caravan DZ. That said, it’s not as easy as it sounds. Paul will have to maintain the support of the city, and city counsel/airport board. He will have to take most of the student business in the area. He will have to pull a large percentage of the existing instructional staff in the area. He needs as much up jumper traffic as he can get to keep the airplane turning and generating income. It takes more than a desire; it takes a very good business man to pull it off. I’d say that if he can employ the airplane flying cargo during the week, it would take a lot of the pressure off, but that’s more easily said than done too. I’ll agree that worst case, this new DZ runs for a couple of seasons, drives a couple of existing DZs out of business, then folds. That said, I support Paul’s right to give it his best shot! I’ll wish everyone good luck, sit back with a bowl of popcorn and a case of beer, down here in Wichita (200 miles away) and see where the cards fall. My intention in starting this thread was not to make enemies out of anyone involved! If I’ve written anything that anyone involved finds upsetting, please call me on it! Literally, call me, email me, PM me, whatever! Martin Myrtle Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’m sure that most Kansas City area skydivers are aware of the new Turbine DZ opening south of KC April 1. The Kansas City Skydiving Center will be located at Harrisonville, Missouri, 30 miles south of KC in Missouri. I’m curious what Chris Hall (Skydive Kansas City) and Tom Dolphin (MRVS) think about the new turbine DZ. I’d think that this new DZ may put Skydive Kansas City out of business (placed between KC MO and SDKC), and put a big hurt on MRVS. This is America, and it is a free market. Competition is a hazard Tom, and Chris took when they placed their DZs in this market. It’ll be interesting to see how the next couple of years go, and what the fall out is. How much of the instructional staff in the area will “gravitate” to this new DZ? I’m sure that all but the most loyal fun jumper population will abandon their old 182 DZ homes in a ‘cocaine heartbeat’ for a caravan going 3,000’ to 4,000’ higher for the same money. SDKC will take a very large proportion of the student traffic (and needs to, to survive!). Paul has set his Tandem price below both of the closest DZs to KC, and again he’s taking tandems 4 to 5 thousand feet higher. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I donate blood regularly, and have jumped the next day. Generally from a 182 at 12,500 msl, obviously it would/could be a larger factor at 15,000 msl? If the reduced oxygen carrying capacity is such a "large factor", why are skydivers allowed to smoke tobacco? Does tobacco smoking not reduce your lung capacity, and/or the blood's ability to carry oxygen? I was on a King Air doing a tandem once at a boogie. The pilot informed me that we were going to have to wait, because another airplane was deploying. Anyway, we ended up above 18,000 msl (on his altimeter)! I was thinking as I scooted the tandem toward the door 'I'm glad I don't smoke!' Bracing for criticism... Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

We used strictly "paddles" up until about 3 years ago. Paddles do have definite advantages over radios. There seems to be a dozen different things that can happen that render radios useless. Paddles are more positive, but if the student can't find the DZ by themselves paddles are useless, and the student’s on their own. I've actually considered using radios up until some point in the landing pattern, then switching to paddles. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’m DZO of Air Capital Drop Zone in Wichita Kansas, we consider Skydive Kansas our sister DZ and I think of Jen Sharp as my little sister (big sister when it comes to skydiving!). There are a few things you should know before going to Skydive Kansas if you’re an experienced skydiver. They have wing loading requirements for main parachutes which you may not have seen at other drop zones, look at their web site for details. They will weigh you, if you are overloading the TSO on your reserve you will not jump that reserve at Skydive KS. Jen requires a digital Automatic Activation Device; you will not jump without one. You will not find a safer student program than that of Skydive Kansas. Jen Sharp is the drop zone owner, chief instructor, and Safety & Training Advisor, I very often consult Jen first when I have a training, or safety related question at my drop zone. Skydive Kansas trains the Tandem Progression method; this allows Jen to personally oversee the instruction of every student. In short, if you jump gear, or do things that are typically listed as causes of incidents in Parachutist magazine, you probably will not be allowed to jump at Skydive Kansas. Jen Sharp always puts safety as priority #1, regardless of the consequences to the ‘bottom line’. If you’re considering making a first skydive, you will not find a saver place or better people to entrust with your or a family members life! Martin Myrtle Drop Zone Owner Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas

Or as Yogi would have said; "I didn't really say everything I said." Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Here's an idea! Break into your piggy bank, buy an airplane and start your own DZ! Yes, eventually the same shit will be going on at your DZ, but this way a lot of it will be about what an ass hole the DZO is. As DZO people will be talking about you, and you'll be left out of it! Cool huh? Martin DZO Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I do have 1000 tandems out of a 182, and I'm 6'8" tall! Not only that but we do easily put two tandem pairs in our 182 (nothing new to Cessna people) Smallest airplane I've jumped was a Polish Wilga (can we say novalty?) Just two seat, prop turns backward, and no rudder trim (means the pilot has to push really hard on the rudder peddle for the whole of the climb). Then fairly hard to get out of. Lots of Pits jumps at WFFC (I haven't done that one), but that's a small one! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Hmmm, partied a lot lately, have you? Either that or him and Cary had the same english class. j I'm having a really hard time giving this person any credibility and I don't know if it's the all-caps or the indication of a low-level education....or it he/she an English-as-a-second-language person....I dunno.... I remember an English teacher once telling me that I didn't need to learn English so I could use proper English in every circumstance, but I needed to learn it so that if I ever wanted to I could use it! Now, I look at a post like this, and it rings sooooo true! When you have to read it 3 or 4 times just to try to figure out what the person is trying to say because it's one long nonsensical, run on sentence, you just can't help but think 'IDIOT'!!! Here, I'll paraphrase what Sunman's trying to say for any of you having a hard time with it. "Now lets go skydive drink party go across the street drink skydive party I like those people because they’re farmers and drink and I don’t like these people because they party skydive drink have fun but I have fun with my friends and party here but then I go there and party and drink and have fun but they’re nice to me and I’m nice to them but we all jump and party when we’re jumping and drinking here or there CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG" Duah! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I guess I get to be the first to label this one a Troll. I will agree that DZOs could learn a thing or two about marketing by looking at what Skyride does. As for my area, I've made sure that whenever one of my potential customers sees a Skyride advertisement, they also see one for my DZ. From what I know, Skyride does virtually no business in Kansas, but it's not because they don't try. Now, go away Troll! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Our unofficial policy is that we’ll do a tandem with the passenger less than fully clothed at the customers’ request, and that it’ll be at least full price. My wife is a partner in my DZ, and it’s her opinion that if we offer a reduced price for any woman we have to offer it to every woman regardless of age, weight, etc. Then there’s the issue of offering a discounted price to only women, what about a guy that wants to go topless for half price? Also, I agree that there isn’t a non sleazy option when trying to sell naked tandems. I own the business, and I really do not want my customers to ever go away from my DZ thinking we’re a bunch of sleazy, unprofessional, jerks (we may be, but I don’t want them to know it!). Not only is that not the impression I want my customers to go away with, but when our customers go spread the word about our little skydiving business, I’d rather it not be about us pushing some cute girl to get naked!! Our other unofficial policy is that we’ll do topless/nude tandems, but only when I’m at the Couch Freaks boogie. Those don’t run through the De Moines Skydivers concession, and my “student” simply pays for the slots, I refuse money if offered. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'm not a RWS TI, but isn't there a contract between the TI and RWS? And isn't there something in there about a $10,000 per incident penalty for violating the age conditions in the contract? Also, curious if this is correct if it's ever been invoked? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

You're not forced to jump at a particular DZ either. If you signed the waivers, understood and followed the rules then the risks associated with that are your own. If you felt there was a safety issue you could have the ST&A sign off on you not needing an AAD or you could go to another DZ. That's the point that I was going to make, no DZO can force anyone to do anything (except maybe leave his place of business)! If you don't like it, go elsewhere. It almost sounds like the sentiment is that a skydiver should be able to force the DZO to let him do whatever the skydiver wants to do at that DZOs business. I believe that if I owned a restaurant I should have the ability to set a smoking/non-smoking policy for my business. Again, if you don't like it I can't force you to come in and smoke or not smoke it's your choice. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Well this is off topic, but I can't let that one go. When I was a "100 jump wonder" I was jumpmastering, which meant doing everything short of running the FJC. So I would think that i your opinion the Coach rating is an improvement over the old system. I personally like the fact that we encourage our younger skydivers to start to teach. I'm in Kansas though, so generally someone with 100 jumps has at least a couple years in the sport. I do agree that there are inevitably conflicts, personally I'd like to see more representation form/for the small (1, 2 Cessna 182/206) DZs (I'm not running!). Seems to me that an awful lot of what USPA does is geared toward the large DZs. To use your example, the Coach rating is honestly useless for an IAD/Static Line DZ. Seems that the whole ISP was geared around AFF, and the "second tier" training methods were simply forced in. That being the case it's hard to encourage people to spend money and work for a useless rating, just so they can proceed on to becoming an Instructor. I doubt that either the large DZ DZOs, or the professional skydivers, would have much concern for us "little guys". Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

The political answer would be that I'm a Libertarian. I think that your rights extend even to the point of what I or society might consider dangerous. As long as you don't expect me or society to pick up the pieces resulting form your decisions! And obviously as long as your freedom doesn't intrude on someone else's freedom. That and the fact that I'm an Ass Hole! (hey I thought it was funny!) Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ