skydived19006

I’m a tandem instructor with right at 1000 tandems, and no reserve rides. I’m interested in hearing from those who’ve had the fun of flying a Tandem Raven 375’ on a nice warm humid day with 450+ lbs suspended. Anyone? We have a 240 student limit, and I weigh in at about 220 so we’re hauling 500 lbs or so, our Icarus mains fly and land fine with the load. The thought of having 500 lbs under a TR 375 carries a bit more pucker factor! Martin AC/DZ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I run a small DZ in Kansas (In the States, Kansas is OZ, it’s a Wizard of OZ thing), “small” as in one 182, myself and my partner doing all the tandems, and video (we trade off). Right now for us to do two tandems with outside video is two loads and four pack jobs. We’re gearing up for handy cam, which will reduce the same scenario to one load, and just the tandem rigs to pack (we did decide to start using a packer this year; we did 400 tandems last year also packing for ourselves). I currently charge $75 for outside video with 35mm stills, and plan to offer HC for $40. I pay $30 to run outside video, and plan to pay either $20 or $30 for HC (I personally do half of all tandems and video). Wichita had formally had two active DZs, my competition just recently closed, so my one airplane is really not enough lift (outside video REALLY bogs us down) so it’ll help with the lift capacity as well. 12 tandems with outside video is 12 loads, with HC it’s 6 loads which frees up the AC for 6 more Loads for the fun jumper, students, etc! Not only that but for Mark and I, we do 6 jumps a day as opposed to 12. I’m not as young as I used to be! In our situation, it’s a case of “everybody goes home in a limo!” I’d say it’s coming, get used to it. “Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.” Dwight D. Eisenhower Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Dave/All, I know it’s not a crazy idea, and I am serious. Wichita is a big enough market to support two 182s easily enough, that said I think the second airplane would most likely run in the red, which is one reason I’m not so interested in doing it myself. I just thought I’d put the offer out there since so many people here know more about DZ expenses, etc than the people who are already in the business. I know that if all my DZ did was fly fun jumpers, the expense to income ratio would be extremely tight to say the least. Granted, I could eliminate some existing expense as I wouldn’t be advertising, etc. Flying fun jumpers at $19 a slot just does not allow for many “unplanned expenses”. Spending $2,000 on prop maintenance, radios, cylinder replacement, etc, etc, could easily burn up a years “profit”. How many people do you know that want to spend 1000 hours a year of their “spare” time to run a business hoping to be lucky enough to break even at the end of the year (that’s called a club, hats off to the few that still exist!)? Long-story-short, that’s why the money making portion (generally Tandems) of the business take priority. No calls yet, I'll let you know when I find that airplane. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

DITTO Thanks for saying that Strato. I have seen a situation like that or two.... I remember being a student all too well and it was one hell of a long time ago.. and then I went thru it all over again just 3 years ago. My how times had changed... When I was a student BACK IN THE DAY.. they could not wait for me to finish my static line progression at my DZ so they could do 4 way with me before I had 20 jumps. The new place I trained at 3 years was a tandem mill, and that was what was all important.. the DZO's bottom line. ONce he was not making $100 a jump off you .. he basically did not give a rats ass about you unless you were making money for him( told me that to my face). He did not have the lift capacity to really support anything more than his tandem factory... or at least that was the way he ran it. As long as you did not mind doing solo's with a tandem and TI and Videographer.... you could manage to squeeze on a load here or there. A two tandem and TI's load would fill the plane go up and drop.. and them come back down and sit on the ground for 30 minutes until the next set of tandems were ready to go( god forbid a tandem would have to wait ). Experienced jumpers COULD HAVE gotten another load in between but manifest just was not geared toward that....if the plane was doing tandems.. that was all it was doing. In summer when he would lease a Caravan.... it would sit on the ground so that he could maximize profit out of his own C-182's.. the Caravan would not fly until the Tandems were being inconvienienced and had 3 or 4 of them ready to go and even then it would take 12 or more on the plane for it to roll. Personally I dont want to see anyone having to wait... I have been to a LOT of well run DZ over my jumping career and luckily most of them are run by DZO's who are jumpers and are not totally eaten up by greed and can manage their DZ to make it fun for EVERYONE.. students.. tandems... and upjumpers.. and they STILL manage to amke a profit. Part of making everyone happy at the DZ is putting SOME of that profit BACK into the business and providing the aircraft that todays jumpers want. The other DZ in this area.. KNOWs how to do this.. with their Otter.. and the Cessna... I dont mind jumping from the cessna when there are not enough people to roll the super otter wiht -34 turbines..... I do not mind the hop and pops that our NW weather foists on us with low cloud decks all too frequently...I dont mind this DZO hustling people to get ready for loads... its well run.. and more of us get to jump... BUT they have invested the money in their family businsess to keep everyone happy. To me.. that is good customer service.. and I do not mind that 2 hour drive to spend my money there. Rather than fighing the inevitability of someone who is out competing the OLD DZ.. perhaps a change in ways of the OLD DZ's is in order so they can compete. Some of the threads concerning the DZ's there have been a study in nastiness..... its not doing ANYONE anygood because frankly....the fighting does more to make skydiving look bad.... than does a business trying to get started and doing more with less facilities to get off the ground and provide better service than what HAS been the norm there in the area. My wife and I own Air Capital Drop Zone located near beautiful Wichita Kansas. Up until a month or so I had a “competing” DZ across town, and the situation provided a nice balance for the city. That DZ closed for a few reasons, but I think the main one being negative cash flow, time required by the owners to run it, etc. (you’d have to ask the owners). That basically leaves my DZ as the only one in/near Wichita (Skydive Suppesville is still there, and I actually called the owner and asked that they start flying to help the situation, long story I guess). Seems that there are an over abundance of people here who know how to run a fun and profitable DZ regardless of expenses, demographics, economy, etc. If anyone’s interested in starting a DZ in the Wichita area, I’d welcome the competition. I know, I know, “buy another airplane”. I don’t want to for multiple reasons (initial cost isn’t one of them). Again, here’s another opportunity for some of the enterprising and highly knowledgeable skydivers here. I’ll allow you to purchase an airplane, hanger it at my DZ and we’ll fly it. I’ll charge you a couple of bucks a slot to help with my expenses, and you can insure it, maintain it, pilot it, etc. If you think I’m bull shit’n, I’m not! Serious inquiries only please! 316-776-1700 ask for Martin. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That’s cool, glad to hear it went well. I talked to a couple of the Wichita skydivers, they said that they had made 11 jumps, which was every odd load. Sounds like there will be a regular KC road trip schedule from Wichita. I take it that there were no “issues” with the city, and the “zoning problem”. I had seen that “they” were threatening to enforce zoning regulations against the DZ, did that issue go away, or has it just been put back? Martin AC DZ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

If there’s a stage supply store in town (most likely bigger cities), you can find it there. I buy in locally for $8 or $10. I asked a commercial type hardware supplier to quote me 3M gaffers (whatever their part number is), he said that they could buy it for me, but only in case quantity. I’d have to go into the tape business to justify buying a case of it! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Hey Dave, Here's that link again. Anyone who knows Dave will understand. Dave "Zoot" Ternes: The Later Years One thing we have in common Dave is that we both enjoy our own humor, not so sure anyone else does though. Enjoy Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Need contact information for the pilots that were flying at SD Wichita. The Kingman airport has a 5000’ concrete runway, it's a little different flying from a 2500 foot grass runway with cows, their poop, and terraces! Maybe should start with the more experienced SD Wichita pilots first. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I think that there is only one thing that will ever “make Skyride go away”, and that is for all DZs simply not to accept the certificates! That may never happen, but in the meantime DZOs need to step up to the competition! Meet Skyride on their turf, if Skyride is garnering business from paid internet search ads in your area, maybe you should make sure that YOUR customers are exposed to an ad for a real DZ at the same time. That’s been my strategy, and not only has it all but eliminated the Skyride presence in Kansas, but it’s increased my student business! Competition is the American way, not everyone honest and/or honorable, deal with it, and COMPETE! BTW, does this thread hold the dropzone.com record for longest, most views, etc? Anyone know? Martin AC DZ Wichita Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

You guys can’t ever get anything straight! Dropzone.com is nothing more than a big rumor mill, and soap-opera, you all should get a life! Suppesville is not getting a 737, everybody knows the 727 has the air-stair (duah!); Milton is going to buy the Parris Jet, and finally get the damn thing certified! Try to get your facts straight! [serious] We have one Cessna 182 at Air Capital Drop Zone, it’s not enough lift to keep everyone “happy” in the Wichita area. There are two 182s sitting at Skydive Suppesville, I called and had a nice conversation with Norman Brinkman the other night. Basically, he’s willing to fly skydivers, people just need to get in touch with them and make it happen! I don’t feel like it’s my place to tell anyone what they should do, but last Saturday with the tandems and students we had scheduled, there was a 4 to 6 load backlog on the manifest at AC DZ. I don’t want to own, or lease a second airplane, but have checked into a couple of options. The simplest solution seems to me to be that Suppesville would become active again, and take up the slack left from the loss of Skydive Wichita. [/serious] Or, maybe one of the new KC area Turbines could offer a “direct connect shuttle service” from Wichita up to the skydiving utopia you guys have going up there? That or maybe Paul could shuttle all the KC skydivers down to Cook Field and fly that turbine out of Wichita? My airport owners love me (not in a sexual way!), and my business, and to my knowledge there has only been one local ever threaten to shoot down a skydiving aircraft flying off of Cook Filed. That was back when Dave Ternes was running the DZ, and anybody who knows Dave can understand why someone would want to shoot him! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I got my instructional ratings back in the “Jump-Master” days. So I attended a JCC, and ICC (Jumpmaster Certification Course/Instructor Certification Course). These courses basically amounted to sitting in a room, and listening to lecture, then demonstrating a couple of ground instruction skills. Compared to the Coach Course I attended last summer, and assisted with it’s a night and day difference. Maybe part of it may be due to the Coach Course Director as well, she did an excellent job. I imagine there could still be some fairly poor Coach Courses being conducted? As the BSRs now stand its extremely vague, BSR Section 2-1 E.4. c. All students must jump under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation. [E] There is no clarification as to who can jump with and/or supervise the student after completing the disorienting maneuvers, so the “new” rule allowing D licensed skydivers to jump with “Self Supervision Students” is actually no change at all. The BSRs are the “law” we live by, what’s given in SIM chapter 4 or the IRM are really moot, just ask for a waiver to a “rule” in the ISP or IRM, and see what the response is from USPA. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Where I came from our students were "students" until becoming at least "A qualified", which back then meant having everything on the "A" card checked off. Our students were required to jump with Jump-masters/Instructors, and their jumps were considered "student jumps". So to answer your question regarding "back in the day", students were not allowed to jump with just anybody then either (at least where I came from). I do understand that the term "neophyte" was used with regard to AFF students, but I can't say how they were supposed to have been supervised. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Thanks Kip! So, would it be your openion that an Instructor would still be required to supervise from the airplane? That's how I read the current rules. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I did a little checking in the SIM (granted, I didn’t reread the whole thing), and I could not find reference to “Self Supervision Student” (I also did not have handy a copy of the IRM). So, my question is; when does a student become “Self Supervision”? Is this information in the SIM? The SIM after all is our main reference, we abide by the BSRs, all other information sources (IRM) are just supplements. I need an answer that applies to Static Line/IAD progression. I assume that at least a couple of the BSRs will be rewritten, or added. It would be nice if the USPA could “push out” these rule changes through an S&T news letter or such. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I was right in the middle of the Coach Rating changes regarding SL and IAD DZs working with FF students. I submitted the waiver which was approved at the Summer 05 meeting. I submitted an update/resubmittal for that waiver for review to Winter 06 meeting. I had multiple emails between myself, RD, S&T chair, and I had no idea that they were considering making overall changes to basically make that waiver universal. It was as much of a surprise to me as I would guess it was to all. Maybe Mike Perry was the only person on the face of the earth that knew he was interested in pursuing this rule change. I also had heard, nor seen anything regarding the change to allow D license skydivers to jump with “Self Supervision Students”. Martin Myrtle Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I try to keep my student jump prices down as much as I can, and charge $60 for a Coach Jump. When it’s two slots to altitude at $19 each, $10 to the Coach, $5 to repack, that leaves $7 for gear rental. I (DZO) obviously keep more when we put out 3 IADs at 4,000’ for the same $60, but other than for when we run a FJC that seldom happens. I’ve looked at pricing at DZs that teach AFF/AFP/Tandem Progression, which generally advertise the cost of the first 7 to 10 jumps, but add in the remaining Coach supervised jumps the student will reach $3000 fairly easily. I can put a student up for the required 30 jumps (5 non freefall jumps) for under $2000. I’ll be the first to admit that the AFF/AFP student will most generally be a better skydiver when he gets his “A”, but my guy can make another 50 jumps on his own gear for the difference. Which is better 25 jumps on an AFF program, or 80 training SL/IAD, still a matter of opinion. Oh, but you say “who’s going to “waste” their jump with this new 30 jump A license guy. Well again, at an SL/IAD DZ the student has most likely been jumping for 3 months or more, and unless he’s an absolute and total ass hole, has befriended everybody at the small, friendly, slow pace, one Cessna DZ. So just about everyone is willing to go jump with the new guy. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Sounds about right to me. There are quite a few variables though, such as temps, model 182 (after they widened the body again in 64/65 they got heavier, and slower), how strong the engine is, etc. I have a D (1960) model 182, we go to 11k (1300 ground elevation), and turn loads 35 min or so figuring in taxi time, loading, etc. It has an O470R (later engine, breathes better, larger exhaust), built by Western Skyways in Colorado. It now has 1300 hours on it and still running compressions above 70. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’d also like to thank the USPA BOD, the S&T Committee, and Mike Perry in specific! I think that serious consideration of this rule change required people to be very open minded! Its way to easy to be overly invested in the status quo, especially if you were instrumental in setting the status quo! The USPA is not a bunch of politicians invested more in politics than skydiving! Thanks! Martin Myrtle Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I thought that my response to this opinion would be better served in the Instructors Forum. Reference; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2084938 I thought I’d put up something regarding the comment that the USPA is again taking a position of Group Member over individual Member. After thinking about what I should post, I came back to my original argument for the implementation of this Waiver. In particular are, “Regarding my “hardship””, point’s 7, 4, and 6. Also, I think this got edited at some point; but I contend that a student served by a less skillful Coach is much better off than a student being “served” by an Instructor who’s forcing him in between tandem loads, and can’t dedicate the time to that student that he deserves. Having to tell a student at 9:00 am that “we’re extremely busy, and our instructors are basically tied up all day. If you sit on that couch over there for 8 hours or so, we just might be able to get you out before sunset” How many future skydivers do you think the sport has lost to that? Martin Myrtle Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Reason waiver is requested (cite unnecessary burden or research and development of improved techniques and methods): 1. 2-1-E-4a(1) states that “All jumps must be conducted by a USPA Instructor in that student’s training method”, following this logic a SL/IAD student would never be allowed to jump under the supervision of a USPA Coach, unless we take a liberal definition of the term “student”, call him a “neophyte” at a point of my choice in his progression, and let him jump under the supervision of a USPA Coach. 2. 2-1-E-4c is actually under the heading of “b. Harness-hold program [NW]”. This implies that after the student has shown the ability to recover form disorienting maneuvers he will be allowed to jump with any licensed skydiver, no USPA Coach or USPA Instructor is required at all. Again, I don’t understand if this is the intent, or if the rule is again simply vague. 3. Coaches are trained to teach freefall skills. As such it’s my opinion that a Coach can teach freefall skills from 10 second freefalls on. 4. We train only IAD (we also do tandem, but if a student wants to learn to skydive we only train IAD), as far as I can tell there are no additional freefall skills required of an SL/IAD instructor beyond what’s required of a Coach. 5. With the SL/IAD training method the Instructor/Coach does not “intervene” or “save” a student, the Instructor/Coach is only there to observe, critique, criticize, recommend advancement, repetition, or regression. Following the ISP, when the instructor starts to interact (RW) with the student is when the Coach is traditionally allowed to work with the student. 6. With SL/IAD the student is not allowed to freefall until they have demonstrated the ability to deploy stable (three successful and stable practice pulls). They have not yet demonstrated the ability to recover form a disorienting maneuver within 5 seconds, but again whether there’s an Instructor or Coach “directly supervising” they are not allowed or qualified to attempt to “save” the student. 7. One might argue that a seasoned Instructor might be better able to deal with a student’s stability, or turning problems. I’m not ruling out having an Instructor jump with my freefall students. Additionally if my Coaches are not allowed to use their rating, and only make half a dozen “Coach” jumps with students during their tenure as a Coach, I would argue that they are no more “seasoned” as an Instructor than they were as a Coach. They will at that point simply have a new title. 8. I do not propose that anyone other than an Instructor conduct the “A license check dive”. 9. This waiver could also be considered research and development. I think that the SIM, ISP, IRM, should be reconsidered, and rewritten to better define what exactly the Coach can do, and define it as it applies to each training discipline. I also think continuity between training methods should take a back seat to logic! 10. Currently I could theoretically move up the “recover form back to earth presentation” to come directly after the Clear and Pull, after the student had satisfactorily demonstrated that he could recover I could allow my Coaches to directly supervise my students, and be in compliance with the BSRs. I think this would be a very dangerous “solution”, as if the student were not able to recover he would be pulling unstable. Another political argument for reconsideration of the wording in the SIM, and a separation between training methods. What I propose it to have only USPA IAD rated Instructors handle the actual Instructor Assisted Deployments, and also the first Clear and Pull (Category C, Dive Plan 1). Once the student is cleared for 10 second freefall, I propose having the USPA rated Coach directly supervise (form the plane/freefall) the student, and to have an IAD instructor indirectly supervise (from the ground). Regarding my “hardship”: When the USPA instituted the new instructional rating system it not only had the affect of greatly increasing the proficiency of the instructional staff, but it at the same time made it considerably more difficult to attain instructional ratings. At an SL/IAD drop zone, as the system is currently structured the Coach rating is virtually useless (only allowed to conduct the last few jumps on the 1 to 3 students we have progress to that level each year), and I believe was designed around AFF, with SL/IAD “forced” in almost as an afterthought. My “youngest” IAD instructor got his rating over 5 years ago (before the rating changes were made), and we often find ourselves in a situation where we have students who want to jump, but no “appropriately” rated instructors available to conduct the skydive. It’s my opinion that if we are allowed to implement my waiver, we will be able to provide better and timelier service to our students, and in the long run we’ll be able to train more new skydivers. As the system now stands, I have seriously considered completely dropping my student program, and becoming a “tandem factory”. This would be a last resort, and if this were to become the industry trend it would eventually kill the sport as no new skydivers would ever be trained. I would also suggest that this requirement be reviewed and rewritten with two sets of requirements along the lines of my waiver for all IAD and SL drop zones. I do understand that the ISP was/is designed to provide continuity between training methods, but the differences between SL/IAD and AFF/Tandem Progression are so vast I think this supposed continuity is not serving as a positive compromise. If it’s the position of USPA that under the existing BSRs no Waiver is needed to necessary to implement my suggested procedures, a letter to that affect would be sufficient. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Kind of sounds like a bunch of young women (girls) doesn’t it. “Oh I hate that bitch; she thinks she’s so cute”. I’ve always thought that guys were supposed to be more accepting, more like “yeah, he’s an asshole, but I don’t have a problem with that” (that’s why I can get along with Dave Ternes!). Obviously these are both stereo types, and as such are not universal, especially when someone’s/ anyone’s money is involved! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That’s how I exit a 182 as well, my butt and right leg is all that’s left in the airplane once we’re ready to go. I also give one last handles check while on the step, then roll off. I know it may do little to move this discussion forward, but we jump Eclipse rigs. One change that Shoobie made (from his copy of the Vector II) was to permanently attach the secondary drogue release to the main harness so it’s located on the TMs right hip, and really closely simulates where a BOC would be for the student. I have heard/seen discussion of altering Vector IIs and Strong’s to this configuration. Martin Air Capital DZ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

If you knew skydivers, you would also know he was joking. you should go to the meeting and meet these people. skydivers are usually free spirits. they are human, and just like you and your next door neighbor, good people. take the time to meet them and you are sure to love them.

Well, I’d bet that damn near every single townie knows that Skydiving is coming to Harrisonville! I only wish I could say that 90% of people within a 50 mile radius of Wichita knew my DZ existed! To get that kind of publicity I’d either have to spend a whole bunch of money, or have someone kill themselves, but I’m not convinced that either of those would do the trick. Maybe a good death with a little mystery and intrigue might do it. Mr. Plumb did it, at the DZ, with a syringe of supper glue. Then maybe in court Mr. Plumb could mount a good ol west style defense of “He needed Killin’” Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Fly private, you can land right on the DZ airport, and taxi up to the DZ hanger. If Illinois is the "mid west" and Kansas is both South and West from there we qualify on both counts! Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas (isn't the first thing that comes to mind an old west cow town when you hear Wichita Kansas?) Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

"Everything was just fine until the skydivers showed up!" Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ